6 mm br.

how would you compare the 6 mm ppc to the 6 mm br using cases of lupua make for bench rest shooting i know that there are more ppc then brs but what realy are you giving up? t j jacckson from texas did a sstory in pc magizine years ago on the br and thought it was just as good if not better.the case in the dasher form is the cats tail in 1000 yard shooting so i am a little confused on this matter.
gary b
 
More than likely you will give up a legitimate chance to win .....anything. Don't fall for the 6 PPC is winning because were all a bunch of lemmings crap.
 
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I've spent thousands on this concept..... I've gone so far as to order "two consecutive barrels" from the same maker having them chambered one in in 6BR, one in 6PPC AND THEN PAYING TO SWITCH THEM

I've paid to have seven chambers switched, and tried 5 different 6BR reamers. I've even talked with/ shot with Jim Stekl about it (IMO the single most-well-versed person on the 6BR)

Buy a 6PPC

I can now make a shortened 6BR that _I THINK_ will run with the 6PPC but take it from one who's $10,000.00 poorer, buy a 6PPC. Trust me, I learned a lot along the way, I don't count it money wasted, but there are valid reasons the 6PPC WINS. IMO the single biggest reason is that it's so much easier to make and maintain competitive cases for the 6PPC.

Now, comparing 600/1000 to 100yd BR is apples to oranges. That's like saying "Why can't I just build a Top Fueler that goes FAST and run it in NASCAR too?" 100/200 is an entirely different animal than 600/1000 and if one were to bring one of those DAshers to a 100/200 meet he would be lucky to place last :)

opinionby

al
 
I would say that the 6 BR has inherent accuracy and is a great case. Many shot it in 100-300 yard BR when good brass was hard to obtain for the 6 PPC, and they did well with it. The main problem is the case is a bit overbore for what is needed for the light bullets most use in 100-300 yard Benchrest, this is why people modified the BR cartridge building tall dog, and small dogs and so forth. Even with all of this once good brass came available for the PPC just about everyone dropped the 6BR like it was hot, and went back to the PPC. There was a reason why, and there is still a reason why you don't see many (If any at all) nowadays.

Now as far as the Dasher; it rules in 600 yard Benchrest, and is starting to come around in 1000 yard. You can call it the 6 ppc of long range. With the heavy long bullets needed to work at long ranges. (With a balance of BC, speed, and so forth.) the dasher has the perfect case capacity to do this. We have shot 6PPCs out to 600 yards, and the little bullet (66-68 grs.) will go, but the wind, and losing speed plays havoc on them. Comparing the 6 Dasher to a 6 PPC is not comparing apples to apples. They both have there places and limitations.
 
When you say "benchrest," you mean match shooting, right? Start with a group match. If a 2-gun match, you start Sat morning 8:00am & fire 10 targets, 5 record shots per target, 100 yards, for the day. Sunday morning the same but at 200 yards. If a 4-gun match, only one yardage, but the unlimited (usually Sat morning) may be a 10-shot per target match. Each day, in between the 10 relays you fire, you reload and clean.

Now the winner shoots good. So too does the middle of the pack people, almost as good, and probably he/she also made a mistake or two more than the winner. Go look at the aggregates for the overall; they usually won't be that far apart. And you'll see the pattern I'm talking about.

Now I'd shoot a 6BR if I had to. I'd use heavy bullets in a fast twist barrel. Ferris Pindell (inventor of the PPC) recommended just that toward the end of his days, but he never fired matches with that combination. R.G. Robinett did, to try things out -- his not-available 121-grain FB bullets in a 10-twist Dasher. He came in 2nd a time or two. And Randy is use to managing Hunter-class rifles.

Over the course of two days for the match, that combination is just harder to manage. The number of times you don't make a mistake -- or really, a more serious mistake -- is smaller.

I've shot a .30BR in HG in group shooting. It was the most accurate rifle I owned at the time, so I shot it. It almost always did well, I was almost always in the HG top 10 back when we had 40+ people at a match. But even though it was "most accurate," it was harder to manage, and that showed.

Change of scene to score shooting. I've built, and am beginning to enjoy, a .30 PPC. In a 10.5-pound rifle, it's about as much to manage as a .30 BR in a 13.5 pound rifle. In a 13.5 pound rifle, it's easier to manage than the .30 BR.

Another change of scene. If I were younger & wanted to really experiment with a 6mm for NBRSA group shooting, I'd look for a slightly smaller case than the PPC for 6mm. Maybe the 6mm Beggs? Maybe a bit smaller than even that. You're probably beginning to figure out why.

But what powder? Not too many to choose from.

On the equipment side, ignoring barrels (that's just money), the compromises are bullets and powders. Can you find a 105 to 120-grain 6mm bullet that consistently performs well, to use in that 6BR? Probably, nowadays. You get some pluses, taken away with having to manage it. Wat's the overall balance? Who knows. With a smaller 6mm, what's the powder? AA 1680? VV N-120? H-4198? Again, hard to say.

Everything in benchresst competition is a compromise. That more people shoot a 6PPC means it is easy to figure out, to find and use -- to borrow, if you like -- a set of compromises that will let you perform well at matches. You want to go off a different direction, I'll allow you could find success. But you're going to work harder, because there is more work to be done.

One way to look at not being a lemming on the 6PPC is to chronicle what else you've seriously campaigned, and what you've run into. For me, that would take a lot of words & thinking & writing, and I'm not going to do it, esp. the organized writing (yup, this is disorganized). For non-match shooting, I'd tend to take Al's word, except I'd like more details on just what he used in the 6BR -- what weight bullets, in particular, and re-pointed, etc. And if he ever tried a smaller 6mm...
 
Note that when I spoke w/Stekl he'd used the 6BR ONLY for 100/200 Group shooting...which is the subject at hand (I think)... at least that's all we talked about. Plenty of the folks on this board are friends of Jim, I'm not, I reference him only because he campaigned against 6PPC's for years. I asked him all sorts of newbie questions. He and Mike Walker despised "the russian cartridge" as I recall. I've read his stuff on the subject and use him as THE guru of actually shooting the round in competition. Back in the day Glenn Newick, who wrote a book about 100/200Group Bench Rest, used a BR for several yrs, he switched to PPC in the end......

All's I'm referring to is 100/200 GROUP

Get out to 300, the rules change a little....

Get out to 600, the rules change A LOT :)

But I'm referencing the 6BR as pertains to 100/200 Group ONLY
al
 
....except I'd like more details on just what he used in the 6BR -- what weight bullets, in particular, and re-pointed, etc. And if he ever tried a smaller 6mm...

So ask him :)

Not sure what the question(s) are without you asking but I've got 3 Borden 6PPC rifles and multiple barrels as well as 3 other real 6PPC's (I've had 3 different incarnations of 6PPC-USA too) and have shortened the 6BR for group. Kindofa' Talldog thingy done by running the reamer in short.....

I have or have had barrels in PPC and BR in twists 7, 8, 10, 12, 13.5 and 14 and of course have bullets in every weight from 62gr up. If I were to shoot a BR at 300yds in some fun match I still have 800-1000 Berger 88LD's, FB Match, the best shooting "heavy" IMO at about .45 BC or so.

I've only "tipped" 105/107/108's and not enough to mean anything. I've only shot 6MM's competitively in 600yd comp and only 7 times, I'm a cubby, but without tipping I've been able to waterline at 600.

al
 
So ask him :)
al

Al, you're as close to a pure experimenter/tester as we're apt to find on BR Central. And that's a different kind of shooting than match shooting. Not better or worse, just different. I've been known to experiment too, but I always get back to testing in competition.

When I was competition testing 1,000 yard combinations, I'd use a summer's shooting to draw conclusions. That would perforce include different weather -- different wind, temperature, mirage, but always against other people shooting at the same time. That just gives you different answers, it s a different measuring stick.

This question is in the "General" forum, so it's anyone's guess how to respond.

For my money, & allowing this may be a different yardstick, with the 6mms at, say, 200 yards, what the 6BR may buy you is a bullet less affected by conditions. As long as that bullet is physically the equal -- or close to it -- to a typical 66-68 grain short-range bullet, there is a gain. To use that bullet, you need a faster twist. That mean you can't take two identical barrels & chamber one in 6PC and one in 6BR and compare results, because that misses the point.

For what it's worth, R.G. decided that for a number of his bullets, esp. the flat base that aren't offered anymore, 10-twist would work, barrels over 26 inches offered nothing significant, etc. etc.

What Pindell offered was that repointing gave still better performance, at the expense of yet more work. The bullets he was using probably required an even faster twist, I don't remember if he shared that with us.

As for repointing -- While I don't agree with some of the improvement numbers being tossed about, I have found it is beneficial. You have to be careful, as with anything.

But I'm still talking match shooting really, Doing better than the rest of the relay at 1,000 yards, or lowering your group aggregate by .020 or so at 200 yards. When I was what I considered a pure experimenter (you may have a different view/goal/take on things), a number like .020 wasn't enough to count. I was always looking for much better than that. And usually not finding it.

It's like guys and recoil. "Oh," they say "I can handle recoil." Well, there is handling and handling. I can shoot a .338 Lapua in a 17-pound rifle for a couple five shots and not let it get to me, usually. I can't do that so well for 10 shot groups though, let alone a day of 50 shots. Those .010 and .020 mistakes (in short range terms) are just going to creep in, and that's the entire advantage I could get, given right back.

The other thing about match shooting that people forget is, for most of us anyway, each shot isn't a conscious decision. It's like being in the zone -- whether or not you're actually in the zone. And to be there, you have to know, down in your spine, where the bullet is going. To know that, you have to be quite familiar with a load & how it shoots, you can't be thinking "lessee, xyz means I gotta..."
 
6 ppc v 6br

thank you all for your imput. i am now more intune on this then i was.i am going to go for the ppc.i have one more ? im have to buy a used lv rifle in the fall when i get more money.i am looking at rifles in the 12000 to 1500 $ price range that have custom actions.hall and borbon are what i am looking at.any thoughts on this?
gary b...
 
For $1200 to $1500 you should be able to get into a nice Panda. Halls are good, Borden actions are still popular, and work well. Just figure that anything in that price is going to need a new barrel.
 
6PPC versus 6BR

Gentelmen.

I have been shooting the 6BR since 1988 and the 6PPC since 1986.
After thousonds of bullets using both I do not belive that the
2 – 3 grain differance in capacity has anything to do with accuracy.
From the day Lapua offerd their 6mm Norma BR brass the Stekl
cartridge shoots every bit as vell as the 6PPC, and doing so at higher
velocities. The Lapua brass was what the 6BR needed to shine,
just as the 6PPC did !
Remember when the source of .220 Russian cases vent dry?
PPC shooters began to neck down 7.62 x39 cases to form their
6PPC cases. What happend! We all know what heppend.
Without a warning the so called PPC concept all went wrong.
Until the introduction of the Lapua 6BR brass the chambering
had no chance to show what it is capable of.
In 1996, along with a friend, I designed a case we call
6mm Hekla, Icelands most famous valcano.
(Hekla is many times more powerful than Eyjafjallajokull!!)
The 6mm Hekla is an improved 6PPC; less taper, shorter neck
and 45 deg. shoulders. What we were looking for was a .220 Russian
case with a capacity close to the 6BR. And that is what we got.
Two proven 6PPC barrels were rechambered to 6mm Hekla.
And what happend? Aggregates were the same at 100 – 200 yd.
no better no worse. But there was am improvment on 300m
And why not...velocity went up 150 – 170 fps.

Best from Iceland,
Magnús Surdsson
P.s. The two rifles we used in our tests were:
Panda / Jewell 2 oz / Kelbly stock / Hart-14 / Leupold 36 / 68 Berger / VV 133
Hall B / Shilen 2oz / McMillan / Shilen 14.3 / Leupold 36 / 68 Hollister BT / VV 133
 
In some ways I agree, in some not. Reference your post from back in 2011...

http://benchrest.com/archive/index.php/t-74528.html?

BTW, I also want to try a 6PPC at 1,000 yards. Some years back, Roger Haney set up a couple 8-twist 6 PPC barrels (he was enamored with the 115 Bergers), and in passing, was getting around 2,850 with 105 Bergers, using Winchester 741 Ball powder. Archive is somewhere on BR Central... Accuracy was fine. Far as velocity goes, there isn't too much difference between that & the standard 6BR. Shoot it in July & August (milder winds in the Southern part of the States then). It would be a lark to get a 1K win with a PPC, and it can do it.

But just that, a lark. I've been to too many matches -- yes since 2010 -- where the Dashers just couldn't quite stay with the bigger 30s and .338s. Yes it was windy, some couldn't keep all their shots on the paper. And the .338/404 I shoot can give .100-sized groups at 100 yards. The rifle's gone south just now, but I've targets to show if it comes to that.

But that .338/404 is just hard to shoot, even in a 17-pound, braked rifle. It's not about what the rifle is capable of. It's about how forgiving it is, and that includes everything.

And "everything," by the way, includes powder.

My personal belief is something a bit smaller than a 6PPC would be better, if we had an very good, forgiving powder. It does come down to powder with some chamberings. For long range, I like 4350 even if it is too fast. 4831 is next. Too many "where did that come from groups" with Rel-22 and 25. For the PPC, I liked the old GI-322, T, and older AA 2015-BR (Israeli, was it?).

VV N-133 works, except when it doesn't.

What powder have you found in Iceland that will let the .6BR work as well? I don't know of anything in the States with 66-grain bullets, and not even with the 95-110 grain bullets.

I'll stand by the thought that right now, in the States, available components, the PPC has an advantage over the 6BR.
 
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