6.5 x 47 Lapua
- Thread starter NesikaPPC
- Start date
what are you going to use it for, need details and then we can let you know the differences that exist for the range (distance) you will be shooting it from and to, also the competition or just from a bench makes a difference, in other words what are you trying to achieve
Jefferson
Jefferson
Lee Martin
Active member
Both are outstanding and with Lapua producing the brass quality hulls aren't a problem. That said I'd probably pick the 47. Better barrel life while only giving up 100 fps over the screens would be the reasons. Good luck and let us know which one you chamber.
-Lee
www.singleactions.com
-Lee
www.singleactions.com
Yes and yes. The 6.5 X 47 is shorter than .308 based cartridges and allows seating longer bullets long enough to maximize case capacity and still fit in a short action magazine. The 6.5 X .284 can be a headache in a short magazine and may also be difficult to get to feed smoothly. I like both cases, but I would use the 6.5-.284 either in a long action or a single shot.
Scott
R.DesJardin
Misunderstood User
Lee Martin
Active member
That's news to me. I'm also curious to know how that was derived. Not arguing that folks don't push the 47 harder but as for the brass being stronger?
-Lee
www.singleactions.com
Bill Scheider
Bill Scheider
You have a PM
???
The rifles themselves.
You don't need copper crushers or modified chambers for this....... in fact these tools are of limited facility even in a testing lab. In the end, the limiting factor is and will always be the cartridge case itself. Some cases take more pressure, some brands of case take more pressure. It's simple fact that you can't achieve the same velocities using Norma brass as you can with Lapua or Winchester. And in all cases the working limits of the bolt action rifle aren't even approached prior to case failure.
Just like the PPC/BR cases and the new 308 Palma case the 47L case has more head support, small flashhole and small primer pocket. The limiting factor on any assembly is casehead support, once primer pockets begin to open up (a function of casehead expansion) you've reached the pressure limits of the case. My 6X47L comp guns push 105's to 3250. I've got cases fired nearly 100 times at 3150fps. This is significantly faster than ANY "comparable" case (6XC/6-250/243AI/6MMAI etc) and nearly equal to the 6-06, beats the 6X284 in most rifles. The 284 case is a low-pressure case due to it's design, the primers get loose at low pressure. The other biggy is brass "flow" into the ejector hole, most often this occurs AFTER casehead expansion. Generally by the time the shooter sees shiney spots the pockets are loosening.
Some companies know this, actually most of them "know" is but only Lapua and Winchester have actually acted on the knowledge. Lapua designed the 338L SPECIFICALLY around the casehead structure. They knew perfectly well that to reach the velocities they wanted in the case size they wanted they had to design the case to take pressure.
The 338L is one of three case designs which come to mind where the structure of the casehead is such that oftentimes one will show brass extrusion into the ejector hole before pockets loosen. Another is the WSM/WSSM cases, these rounds are typically run TOO HOT from the factory. Mainly due to pre-release hype and unrealistic consumer expectation the factories choose to load their offerings so freaking hot that cases are ruined in the first firing! (This put a lie to the idea that testing cases to failure is somehow "unsafe") I shoot the WSM case in several incarnations and have built a number of them for clients. I also custom load for people, (07 FFL) and generally my loads are slower than factory offerings.
Because factory loads are often too hot.
And they KNOW this, but they're stuck. Kinda' hard to sell a "short 30-06" in today's market.
Incidentally, this is pressure thing the reason the 6PPC rules the accuracy roost. I _can_ and have, along with many others, built cases that will compete with the 6PPC but it's a lot of work to make cases that better the performance of the 22R. Same can be said for the 6BR case. When I first claimed 2900fps using 105's people scoffed. Here on this forum, back in the early '90's I was called a liar. I spent MONTHS defending my position, begging with people to TRY IT using fitted FL dies and sloooowly but surely the concept gained traction as people across the nation tested it out.........Since then there's a website built around this ONE CASE and it's various iterations. It's been fun to watch.
I've built and tested thousands of cases using large primer VS small primer in the same capacity cases and the difference is stark. I ordered 500 of the 6.5X47L cases over a year before they shipped to the US..... I had two reamers waiting and three barrels chambered up BEFORE THE CASES WERE AVAILABLE. And they're awesome. And they kick Tubbs 6XC case to the CURB. (This is relevant only because GD recognized the problem and contracted to have cases made at great expense. And JUST as his project reached fruition the 6.5X47L case hove over the horizon, bummer!)
Same with the 308 Palma, I pre-ordered them as soon as they were projected.
Same with the 6.5X47L case VS the "Dasher"....... The DAsher was an inspired case, two wicked smart people designed the Ultimate 22 Verminator and called it the DAsher. Since then it's been corrupeted into the "6 Dasher" and become wildly popular because IT WORKS! It WINS because a select coterie of gunsmith's have worked the bugs out.....then along comes the 6.5X47 case and guys like me hooted wildy "here's the answer!!!"
And it IS..... it has all the necessary features. It IS a stretched BR case.....it HAS TO work.....
But silly people, slobbering chambers into rifle using "Go Gauges" have managed to bugger up enough rifles that a large segment of the competitive shooting population believes the 6X47L to be somehow "less accurate" than the Dasher....
OK, enough digression. But it's all relevant to the original query. And YES the X47L is "capable" at 1K, as capable as any other 6.5 or 6MM on the planet.
IMO better than anything else on the planet.
opinionby
al
based on your needs I would go with the 6.5 by 47 as there are some very nice berger bullets out there, barrel life is better then the 6.5 by 284 and a little less recoil and the 6.5by47 is very accurate,
so if you do not need the little difference in windage at 1000 yards the 6.5 by 47 will do quite nicely with lapua brass and berger or equivalent bullets and some powder 4350 brand perhaps,
try the 6mmbr.com website for further particulars on the 6.5 by 47
later and have fun
(ps build a gun with a anschutz rail with a remple biopod and have some real fun)
Jefferson
so if you do not need the little difference in windage at 1000 yards the 6.5 by 47 will do quite nicely with lapua brass and berger or equivalent bullets and some powder 4350 brand perhaps,
try the 6mmbr.com website for further particulars on the 6.5 by 47
later and have fun
(ps build a gun with a anschutz rail with a remple biopod and have some real fun)
Jefferson
The thing is..... the various ammunition/rifle makers and even more importantly, the various writers of reloading manuals have to accommodate the whole world..... every Tom, Dick and Hairy and their appurtenant cat. AND, even then, THEY DON'T!
We just had a thread a couple daze ago illustrates this point. Dude COULD NOT, would NOT accept that with HIS gun he was pressuring out at well below "the loads in the book."
In the end the ONLY responsible, the ONLY safe thing to do is to learn how to establish YOUR OWN personal MAX loading for each and every barrel you load for. And for this there is precisely ONE accurate indicator, industry-wide, fuh'GEDDAbout CUP and PSI and crushers and bomb guns and strain gages and se and learn that THE ONLY real indicator is casehead expansion. Every one of the other methods has accuracy parameters, some of them, like the strain gage method are not only inaccurate but are dependent on reading thru a threaded joint and as such vary wildly from setup to setup, are useful only as comparators.
Casehead expansion is absolute. It accounts for variables like case age and hardness. It's independent of chamber fit and rifle construction.
It's dependable.
It's REAL.....
STAY BELOW IT!!!!
al
We just had a thread a couple daze ago illustrates this point. Dude COULD NOT, would NOT accept that with HIS gun he was pressuring out at well below "the loads in the book."
In the end the ONLY responsible, the ONLY safe thing to do is to learn how to establish YOUR OWN personal MAX loading for each and every barrel you load for. And for this there is precisely ONE accurate indicator, industry-wide, fuh'GEDDAbout CUP and PSI and crushers and bomb guns and strain gages and se and learn that THE ONLY real indicator is casehead expansion. Every one of the other methods has accuracy parameters, some of them, like the strain gage method are not only inaccurate but are dependent on reading thru a threaded joint and as such vary wildly from setup to setup, are useful only as comparators.
Casehead expansion is absolute. It accounts for variables like case age and hardness. It's independent of chamber fit and rifle construction.
It's dependable.
It's REAL.....
STAY BELOW IT!!!!
al
R.DesJardin
Misunderstood User
Yes it is a good gauge. But it is dependent on chamber fit and rifle construction. The case expands beyond it's elastic limits which a loose chamber or lighter built rifle would definitely have an effect on.
Not trying to ask an incredibly ignorant question, but I have only done a small amount of reloading, and it was pretty conservative. When you talk about pressure signs, case head expansion, etc., what and where do you look for pressure signs. I've also heard about pierced primers but never experience those. What are there causes/remedies?
Thanks in advance for indulging in questions from a relative beginner.
Thanks in advance for indulging in questions from a relative beginner.
Absolutely false...... as you would know if you'd ever tested it.
I have.
I have tested for tenon size/thickness,
for receiver thickness and barrel joint loading
and for boltface size.
There is NOTHING to contain the casehead, it just floats in the air.....
and if you DO build to contain the casehead (I have) you will end up with a two-handed Wichita action
Please, if you insist on making proclamations, tell us how you arrived at your conclusions. Say more than "would definitely have....."
You describe for me a testing procedure and the mechanics of a containment mechanism and I'll take it at face value.
Altho, be warned, I WILL TEST IT!
I test everything.
al
There is ONE incredibly ignorant question.....
I didn't say "one ignorant question allowed," I said "there is ONE ignorant question....."
The only ignorant question is THE ONE YOU DIDN'T ASK!!!
We're raised in a culture where we, as guys are expected to be able to rebuild a T'ree-Fitty Chubby using only our leatherman tool, IN the dark, ON the trail at twenny below zero, plus remember all the torque specs axle-to-axle and be able to set them reasonably well with said leatherman tool.....
and smile about it.
We're just supposed to KNOW stuff.
.....and people like my own father will drive around the county for HOURS instead of stopping to ask directions.....
Life's too short,
then you die.
So I ask LOTS of questions.
And here are the answers to your specific questions.
Cashead expansion..... the one TRUE gage......
Right now about every third "high-end reloading" article and about every other cutting edge reloading manual touches on the subject and invariably they tell you to get a "blade mic" and measure for it.
DUMB!!!
First of all, once't you've spent the money for a blade mic (I have) and you start actually measuring caseheads you begin to realize that "DUDE! it's an imperfect world!" IF you actually DO this, if you embarque on this mission f'real, you will soon have cases marked in about 5 different colors of Sharpie, cases with notches filed in them and bags and boxes of sortments but most of all you'll have 6 mo worth of cases which are marked "???" because you've just now worked out your filing system..... your NOTEBOOK to keep it all organized.....
If'n you're under twenny you'll have a file folder in your fone....
Buttinnyways, about the time you actually arrive at a meaningful method you'll also realize that those cases which are to be culled out all have "loose primers." What that means is, when you go to re-seat a primer, it goes in LOOSE. Loose enough sometimes that they'll actually fall out if you tap them on the table. At this point guys like me seat ONE MORE PRIMER over cigarette paper, daub it with a liddle Bob-N-Roys and stick it in the box as a throwaway varmint round.
But I digress.
Don't YOU do this, in facto forget I ever said it.
The PROPER way is to throw away the cases one firing after you feel a change in primer seating resistance....... IF YOU DO THIS, and if you are a careful reloader using good technique you will never leak a primer.
Leaking a primer....what it is and what it means.
This was gonna' be your next question.
Once your primer pockets begin to expand (casehead expansion) the primers get looser. They SEAT looser, you feel it when you seat them. When they get loose enough, they begin to LEAK. Super-heated gases escape around the rim of the primer. This isn't dangerous per se, it smells funny and _may_ make your eyes sting a little, but IT WILL RUIN YOUR BOLTFACE!!!
It's called "gas cutting" in the common vernacular and it makes a ring around the firing pin hole. A cratered and pitted ring over time.
So you don't want it.
THROW THE LOOSE CASES AWAY.
You can't fix them. (I've tried)
I have bought three tools purported to re-swage or otherwise fix expanded primer pockets and they do not work for me. Others report success.
Which brings us to "Primer Piercing."
First of all, the term is a misnomer. Primers are never "pierced," there is no mechanism for it. Primers are "popped" or "blown" or, correctly, "blanked." Primer blanking is the result of pressure being high enough to shear out a disc of material roughly the size of your firing pin hole and blow it into the bolt body. There are precisely TWO cures for blanking. #1 is to back the load down. #2 is to make the firing pin hole smaller. A "typical" firing pin hole is somewhat north of .080 in diameter. A "benchrest" firing pin hole is smaller, like mebbeso .065 or somesuch. In between are a range of "medium pressure capable" firearms.
hth
al