Seewin you said that the 1970 catalog couldn't be a D because it has a flat bolt handle. Thanks to George Stephens and his research he has shed alot light concerning the D and the E. If you look at his article in precision magazine(Sept. 2006) page74; he talks about a transition 52D that has all the features of a 52E including A Flat bolt handle. Serial number 12244xD. That leaves open that the gun pictured in the 1970 winchester catalog could be a 52D with a flat bolt handle and a drilled receiver. I know you have done alot of research and so have I; but when it comes to the D's and E's there seems to be alot more of speculation than facts. Winchester really left us in the blind when they never mentioned the E's.
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John, I think this post is getting off the original intent, and we are probably boring the rest of the readers to death. Never the less, I still believe the picture in the 1970 catalog is an E model. My reasoning is that the E's were well into production by that time. Yes, it could be a D, I just think the evidence points to it being an E. You mention George's comment on the transition D #12244X as having E attributes. I own 12245XD which is an International, and It has the D round bolt handle which it should. I think you will find many more early E's with D bolt handles than late D's with E bolt handles. Not that it matters, and yes you are correct, there is a lot more speculation than facts when it comes to these late guns. Winchester is no different than any other manufacturer, they tried their best not to waste anything that could be used, and if the assembler got down to the bottom of the box of bolt handles and found a few obsolete ones that would still work, their is not a doubt in my mind that he used them. They could care less that a handfull of guys would try to figure all this out 30+ years later. It's no different than what you see in the pre 64 model 70's. The forged front sight ramp was officially changed to the sweated-on ramp in 1952, however you will see rifles in the more obscure, slow selling calibers with forged ramps clear up into the mid to late 50's. I guess that is one of the reasons they hold my interest.
Steve
Steve
I agree with you. The poor man that started this thread, just wanted to see a picture of a 52E. Sorry sir that we took it this far. Before I go I would like to hear from someone who has ever come across any article that talks about a 52E in the 60's. I know gun writers and if winchester brought out a E serial number and called it a 52D then somebody would ask Questions. Their has to be some information somewhere. Maybe with all these shooters on this forum,someone might have purchased a 52D and got a 52E instead(in the 60s). Your information would be helpful. Thanks!
S
Single Shot
Guest
Hi guys,
Interesting thread about the Win 52's. I've had more than my share and just looked at some of my old records as follows:
Win. 52-E, # E-125258, Standard Heavy Barrel.
Win. 52-E, International Match, # E-122617.
Win. 52-E, International Match, # E-124498.
Win. 52-E, International Prone, # E-124184.
Win, 52-E, International Prone, # E-124585.
Kind of odd if only 37 International Prone 52's were made and I had two of them, usually I'm not that lucky.
If anyone needs any more Info on theses let me know and I'll dig a bit deeper into my files, I think I bought most of then new around 1975, 1980 period.
S/S
Interesting thread about the Win 52's. I've had more than my share and just looked at some of my old records as follows:
Win. 52-E, # E-125258, Standard Heavy Barrel.
Win. 52-E, International Match, # E-122617.
Win. 52-E, International Match, # E-124498.
Win. 52-E, International Prone, # E-124184.
Win, 52-E, International Prone, # E-124585.
Kind of odd if only 37 International Prone 52's were made and I had two of them, usually I'm not that lucky.
If anyone needs any more Info on theses let me know and I'll dig a bit deeper into my files, I think I bought most of then new around 1975, 1980 period.
S/S
G
gr8guns
Guest
Not exactly the facts
"All the E actions had a flat milled on bottom for the recoil lug which was used only on the Internationals. None the less, all the E actions had this. Also, the stock does not have provisions for the barrel tuning adjustment that the D's used. The barrel was counterbored(recessed) about 1/2" diameter x 3/8" deep on all E models except the std wt barrel model,it did not have a recess. All E actions were drilled and tapped on front and rear of receiver for bases. The barrels were also drilled/tapped for the target style bases. The E models had the "E" preceeding the s/n, where the earlier guns had the letter designation at the end of the s/n. The cartridge loading ramp was also slightly different, to make it feed better than the D. Those are all the differrences I can think of off the top of my head."
My e model is original in every respect. The muzzle is not crowned. The stock does indeed have the adjustment screws and it came this way with the rifle. It is a heavy barrel. Serial number is 1237XX. It is the best shooting Winchester 52 in my stable, and I have a few.
Nothing is cut and dried with the Winchester 52 (originals).
Happy Shooting !
I will post a picture now.
"All the E actions had a flat milled on bottom for the recoil lug which was used only on the Internationals. None the less, all the E actions had this. Also, the stock does not have provisions for the barrel tuning adjustment that the D's used. The barrel was counterbored(recessed) about 1/2" diameter x 3/8" deep on all E models except the std wt barrel model,it did not have a recess. All E actions were drilled and tapped on front and rear of receiver for bases. The barrels were also drilled/tapped for the target style bases. The E models had the "E" preceeding the s/n, where the earlier guns had the letter designation at the end of the s/n. The cartridge loading ramp was also slightly different, to make it feed better than the D. Those are all the differrences I can think of off the top of my head."
My e model is original in every respect. The muzzle is not crowned. The stock does indeed have the adjustment screws and it came this way with the rifle. It is a heavy barrel. Serial number is 1237XX. It is the best shooting Winchester 52 in my stable, and I have a few.
Nothing is cut and dried with the Winchester 52 (originals).
Happy Shooting !
I will post a picture now.
I would be interested to know if yours has the flat on the bottom of the action. I have looked at and own a bunch of E's. I have never seen a heavy barrel w/o the recessed crown(std wt barrels, yes). However as you say, nothing is cast in stone with Winchester. I can assure the vast majority have the recessed crown, and no tuning provisions for barrel, but there is always the exception with Winchester.
Steve
Steve
Hey single shot thanks for listing your guns. There are people out there,including me who would love to have one of those international prones. The 52 internationals are impressive also. There is a man by the name of George Stephens who would love to talk to you. He is doing a serial number project on the D and E's and would like information on each individual gun. I know your help would be appreciated. You can contact him at: geoice@gwu.edu. Thanks again!
B
BrianJ
Guest
52-e
I think exactly the facts.
I would suggest your rifle is a transition model. Winchesters intention was to phase out the "D" rifle and replace it with the new "E". The "D" stayed in production as long as parts allowed after introduction of the "E". When the "D" receivers were depleted "E" receivers took their place as planned. However, in your case the inventory of "D" barrels and stocks remained and were utilized until exhausted. (Just good business practice)
Because of the circumstances involved in a phase out/in most any combination may be expected.
Original yes and I believe explainable.
bjm
I think exactly the facts.
I would suggest your rifle is a transition model. Winchesters intention was to phase out the "D" rifle and replace it with the new "E". The "D" stayed in production as long as parts allowed after introduction of the "E". When the "D" receivers were depleted "E" receivers took their place as planned. However, in your case the inventory of "D" barrels and stocks remained and were utilized until exhausted. (Just good business practice)
Because of the circumstances involved in a phase out/in most any combination may be expected.
Original yes and I believe explainable.
bjm
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S
Single Shot
Guest
Johnny0,
I'll send him the numbers, and any other Info he may want. I forgot I have one more International Match,
# E-124398, bought new.This one and one other one has the Kenyon factory installed trigger.
I just checked my records and # E-124585 International Prone, and # E-122617 International Match, were bought used, these two were bought at Camp Perry and were in 98/99 % like new condition but no box's. All the others were bought new.
S/S
I'll send him the numbers, and any other Info he may want. I forgot I have one more International Match,
# E-124398, bought new.This one and one other one has the Kenyon factory installed trigger.
I just checked my records and # E-124585 International Prone, and # E-122617 International Match, were bought used, these two were bought at Camp Perry and were in 98/99 % like new condition but no box's. All the others were bought new.
S/S
Single shot: Man thats one hell of a collection of 52E's. That will really help Mr. Stephens alot. My international has the Kenyon trigger also. I was checking out your serial numbers to see if my E123451 was close to yours but it wasn't. Hey keep me in mind if you ever want to sell one of those international prones or know of one for sale. Thanks again!
G
geoice
Guest
52D and E comment
Just a short comment for Johnny O. You ask if anyone has anyone ordered a 52D and received an E in the 1960s? I can't help there but I have in my file a xerox of a Winchester factory invoice for eight Winchester 52Ds, each listed individually by sn and all are numbered as 52Es but are itemized as Ds. This invoice is from late in the production cycle, 1978 or '79, I'd have to check which. To date, that's the ONLY piece of definitive evidence that I have seen that bears on this question.
I haven't checked my file lately but I've got more than 300 serial numbers for 52Ds and over 200 for the E. Each new number is important in that I think I can begin to see manufacturing trends - that is there seem to be blocks where a particular model (e.g. International Match or Intl Prone) was made. Many of the 52D CMP rifles seem to also fall in blocks, probably related to particular contracts.
Not to pile on Herb Houze, who wrote a magnificent book (I've almost worn out my original copy) but the sn data show that he is incorrect in his statement that large sn blocks werre left unmanufactured. The numbers I have are uniformly spread through the entire range for both models. If there are gaps, they are limited to a couple hundred rifles AT MOST. As new numbers come in, these gaps get smaller.
If anyone wants to contribute serial numbers to this project, I guarantee absolute confidentiality in terms of ownership info and I would use your entire number in print only if it were historically significant (i.e. the lowest or highest number of a model, etc.) The complete number is much more use than a partial number because of their role in filling gaps (two x-ed out digits leave an ambiguity of almost 100 numbers). Details as to stock type, barrel weight, bolt configuration, muzzle counterbore, trigger, purchase date, etc. are welcome.
I guarantee an individual response to your e-mail and absolute security for your identity.
George Stephens
geoice@gwu.edu
Just a short comment for Johnny O. You ask if anyone has anyone ordered a 52D and received an E in the 1960s? I can't help there but I have in my file a xerox of a Winchester factory invoice for eight Winchester 52Ds, each listed individually by sn and all are numbered as 52Es but are itemized as Ds. This invoice is from late in the production cycle, 1978 or '79, I'd have to check which. To date, that's the ONLY piece of definitive evidence that I have seen that bears on this question.
I haven't checked my file lately but I've got more than 300 serial numbers for 52Ds and over 200 for the E. Each new number is important in that I think I can begin to see manufacturing trends - that is there seem to be blocks where a particular model (e.g. International Match or Intl Prone) was made. Many of the 52D CMP rifles seem to also fall in blocks, probably related to particular contracts.
Not to pile on Herb Houze, who wrote a magnificent book (I've almost worn out my original copy) but the sn data show that he is incorrect in his statement that large sn blocks werre left unmanufactured. The numbers I have are uniformly spread through the entire range for both models. If there are gaps, they are limited to a couple hundred rifles AT MOST. As new numbers come in, these gaps get smaller.
If anyone wants to contribute serial numbers to this project, I guarantee absolute confidentiality in terms of ownership info and I would use your entire number in print only if it were historically significant (i.e. the lowest or highest number of a model, etc.) The complete number is much more use than a partial number because of their role in filling gaps (two x-ed out digits leave an ambiguity of almost 100 numbers). Details as to stock type, barrel weight, bolt configuration, muzzle counterbore, trigger, purchase date, etc. are welcome.
I guarantee an individual response to your e-mail and absolute security for your identity.
George Stephens
geoice@gwu.edu
S
Single Shot
Guest
Johnny0,
I hope I didn't mislead anyone into thinking that I still own all of theses, I did at one time but not now, the only one I have now is an International Match number E-124398
I've owned a lot of different 52's over the past 40 years or so but at this time I'm down to one 52-C Target and the one 52-E.
S/S
I hope I didn't mislead anyone into thinking that I still own all of theses, I did at one time but not now, the only one I have now is an International Match number E-124398
I've owned a lot of different 52's over the past 40 years or so but at this time I'm down to one 52-C Target and the one 52-E.
S/S
S
Single Shot
Guest
George Stephens,
Please feel free to use the six E numbers I posted in full. I don't have a problem with posting full numbers as I have no reason to hide any of the numbers.
There was nothing special about any of theses guns, the three International Match guns were all the same and came in a heavy cardboard box with all the "stuff", the only difference between them was that two of them had the factory installed Kenyon triggers, the two International Prone guns were the same and had the standard triggers of that time. If you need any other Info on then let me know.
S/S
Please feel free to use the six E numbers I posted in full. I don't have a problem with posting full numbers as I have no reason to hide any of the numbers.
There was nothing special about any of theses guns, the three International Match guns were all the same and came in a heavy cardboard box with all the "stuff", the only difference between them was that two of them had the factory installed Kenyon triggers, the two International Prone guns were the same and had the standard triggers of that time. If you need any other Info on then let me know.
S/S