.5 MOA Is The Best I Can Expect?

S

Signguy

Guest
I have this factory Remington Action chambered in a 22-6mm with Kreiger barrel. I could use a trigger or trigger job.
I have been all over the gamut as far as trying powders, primers, bullets ect.
I have weighed brass, turned necks, played with seating depts.
The best I can do is 1" 5 shot groups at 200 yards.
Is this as good as it gets with this action as it is right now?

I don't shoot as much as I would like so I know my shooting could be better but it seems no matter what I do I can't improve.

Any comments?

Tim
 
If you know anyone thats shoots over flags, bring it to him and see what he can do with your best load
 
Tim

The 6MM Rem necked down to 22 is what you might call a "overbore" case. Lots of powder behind a small bullet.

Large capacity small bore cases can be very finky. Most like the slowest burning powder that is suitable, so as to obtain near 100 percent load density.

Unless there are problems with the bedding, scope, or some other mechanicle problem, I would think any custom barrel Rifle assembled by a competent Gunsmith should do better than 1/2 moa.

Of course, shooting small groups, and having a Rifle live up to it's potential, requires the best in bench technique, the best in bullets, tune, and of course, a good set of wind flags............jackie
 
I can't agree with Jackie on this one.....:)

I'm tight....

I growed up poor......

And I was building other people's guns long before I could build my own, in other words I had the DREAMS long before I had the wherewithal.....


The gist of all this is, I built guns partway, and then more partway, and evermore most partway before I ever went all the way. In My Opinion it is perfectly normal for a custom barrel in a varmint chambering on an UN-trued-blued-N-tattoo'd rifle to shoot only 1/2moa in a long-range setup.

You can "cheat" a 6BR 14 twist into some perty easy and cheap groups (altho never good enough to win in the categories it's designed for...) but trying to build the accurate allaround rifle on a budget is an exercise in futility. I had 7 "accurate guns" in my possession and a whole DRAWER full of excuses before I finally broke down and ordered a full-blown 6PPC Bench Rest Rifle, I needed the baseline!

I was at a point where I didn't know if I sucked? or my flags weren't working?? or I needed more work on my loads???

Getting a real BR gun was like turning the light on.

It was like the Dawning Of A New Day.

It was WONDERFUL!!!

All's of a sudden I DIDN'T SUCK!!

I could SEE the wind and it's effect...

And all my other "accurate rifles" were shown to be what they were...... poor man's varmint guns........

I still HAVE several of these rifles. I constantly tinker and fuss with them and try to find tricks.... I use them to test ideas. But in my opinion an accurate rifle is A SYSTEM, and part of the system is the action.

And a bad action can lock a rifle into not winning, ever.

And a factory action is by definition a bad action. Not to say that finding a straightenable factory action and making it right won't work! I've got a Rem700 that was worked over by Borden that absolutely shoots lights out.

But contrary to many other posters here, I HAVE NOT had good luck just throwing a barrel on factory actions.

And, after buying the PPC, a few years later I again started chasing the Holey Long Range Grail....... and started the whole accuracy process all over again.

Long Range Stuff is HARD. A 6PPC 14 twist will shoot bugholes automatically, a 6mm T'underBoomer in an 8 twist will not. And a the 22-6mm is even worse, a horrible cartridge to make shoot. I could right now build one from scratch that would shoot 1/4-3/8 moa....guaranteed. I would shoot for 1/4moa and settle for 3/8....... but it WOULD cost 2500 bucks. Minimum. And then another 350 bucks in dies to keep it shooting. And it might dump on you at 7-800 rds, definitely by 1500.......

And within three barrels I'd expect to find my 1/4" gun... but that's a TON of money and work spent on a cartridge poorly suited to accuracy. And I could blow it away with a 6X47L....

Of course these numbers are guesses, SWAG's but guesses.

For cheap I'm ALL about the 6BR. And there are solid reasons for this.

Tim, I'm 10 miles down the road..... if you ever want to shoot over flags or actually drop some groups with a tuned accurate rifle call me at 360 904 6941.

seriously

And, if you're ever ready to take the plunge you've got a guy named Del Bishop 20min north of you who's a Real Deal Benchrest Competitor and Bullet Maker Deluxe.... and he's always got Good Stuff to sell..

And right across the river, 5 mi away by boat :) is Eric Stanton, a real hotrod shooter too, always seems to have a winning gun and a Bartlein barrel or two close to hand.... both these guys though specialize in short range BR. But the current NBRSA World Champeeen of 600yd is within an hour of you too... You really need to come down with us to Tigard and watch or even shoot the 600. I'll set you up with a 6BR that'll let you actually compete if you want. It's a clunker but it'll get you in the door.

In the end, you shoot a good gun, once, and then just SELL everything else to pay for it, and ye'r all SET!! :D


al
 
Accuracy is a sort of a weakest link thing. In your case, you are probably missing some of the links. I do not say this to be condescending. Heck, I have spent many happy hours at the range in similar pursuit. Take Al up on his offer, then go to a Benchrest match or two. You have some great talent around you. They are all good folks. You will learn a lot, and have a good time.
 
Sig

It's not the gun it's you. Shoot more 200 than 100, always use flags,don't change loads, clean your shooting glasses more often. Praying won't help.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
 
Al,

Thanks for the reply. I am going to be in touch, I would be more than happy to take you up on your offer. I need someone to show me "the ropes".

Are you talking about Tri County Gun Club? I am a member but don't get down there at all. I joined thinking I would shoot the 300 to 600.
Never been once. I shoot everything up at Lone Oaks in Longview. It's a closer drive,small but quiet.
I have heard lots about Delmar from a neighbor and he swears Delmar does all his shooting at Longview but I have never run into him. Seems to be allot of shooters around here.

I only have shot a 6br once.
Gordy Gritters has one of those clunkers you speak of and he let me give it a test drive at 1000 yards. I thought it was a blast
I have a 30br and it shoots better than anything else I have but it is a short range rig. I am very wet behind the ears and lots to learn.

Tim
360.225.9011
 
Tim,

yup, Tri-County. A guy goes by Willies46 will be posting dates for the upcoming match on the 600yd forum. Come on down for it, you'll meet some great shooters.

One other thing... what size neck have you got? IMO it's important that you get the neck clearance down to minimal if you want to shoot long range bullets.

It has been my experience that turning necks when you don't NEED to makes the gun shoot worse. The extra clearance generated more than offsets any gain you may get from the concentric necks.

Very cool that you got to shoot with Gordie, he makes good guns.

al
 
Hey Al,

It is a no turn neck. .256.
I turned about 75% of the neck as I have read would help things.
I think allot has to do with me. I have noticed my vertical is looking lots better since I turned and weighed the brass.

I will come down for the shoot. I believe they are held in the evening, right?

Anytime you want to shoot, give me a buzz I would like to meet you.

Tim
 
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Yo Tim,

Here's the thing wit' da' neck..... The neck slaps out to seal against the chamber walls BEFORE THE BULLET MOVES. The bullet tail is then slammed against whichever random side it hits and is forced into the lands under 500-600lb of pressure. The purpose of a "tight neck" is so that the case neck itself acts as a guiding means, a bushing as it were, to keep the bullet aligned as it's hammered into the lands.....

Therefore it follows that anything you do to increase neck clearance simply translates into increased in-bore yaw. The initial alignment is meaningless.

(IMO :))

At least this is what the experts tell me and my anecdotal backyard experimentation has borne it out. Two winters ago when it friggin' SNOWED forevermore and cold I fired some bullets into snowbanks and recovered a percentage of them in the spring, the results were inconclusive... but results on target have never led me to believe that turning already oversized necks offers any gain.

I'm well aware of all the folks who claim gains, I'm only sharing my opinion.

The matches at Tri-County take place on Saturday, we generally arrive about 7:00AM and wrap up by three.

It'll be a week or three before I'm shooting here, work and Memorial Weekend and all..... I'm having to shoot outside now, my indoor range is temporarily decommissioned ..... and you've seen the weather of late! I've been looking for a three day sun window in Longview since Dec! I've got a job to fix....

Anyway, I'll give you a call one of these days.

al
 
Signguy said:
You mean someone is acually working in the Northwest?

Tim
Click to expand...

Well, maintenance stuff..... and preparing a room for offices because we're NOT working. I'm thinking of trying Something Completely Different.

Housebuilding is still slooowwwwww.......

al
 
Your preaching to the choir Al.
The sign biz has been in the toilet for a couple of years now.
My partner finally gave up and moved to Florida to live with his son and try to ride the storm out.
I have been trying to do some wholesale metal work but not had much luck.
I come out here in my shop and try to think of stuff to build and sell but I can't come up with anything.
I am not sure if you remember talking with me earlier on this forum about getting into machine work. I was thinking the same thing, trying something new. I decided to play the cards delt to me. Right now it's a cold deck.

Tim
 
Luckily, my son is a brewer and no matter what--people want their beer-- even when the whole of SW WA went in the spotted owl tank--beer was still sold--maybe even more than before.......

...I love these home projects and trying to accurize a factory rifle is a good rainy day, er week, well it's a great project for this area if not others. Stiffen up the action if you can get a single piece scope mount and a single shot follower that fits really snug where the magazine was. DNZ makes a good inexpensive scope mount/ring combo. Ken Farrel makes a better expensive matched mount ring combo. Aftermarket trigger is a must or failing that, at least an EZ pull trigger assist. I think Cabella might have bought the rights to that--it's the only place I've seen one lately. Gotta have Rick Graham's flags. Precision Shootings Benchrest Primer, Glenn Newick's Rifle Accuracy book. Think of this kind of project as your own economic recovery program for the firearms industry............
 
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Signguy said:
I have this factory Remington Action chambered in a 22-6mm with Kreiger barrel. I could use a trigger or trigger job.
I have been all over the gamut as far as trying powders, primers, bullets ect.
I have weighed brass, turned necks, played with seating depts.
The best I can do is 1" 5 shot groups at 200 yards.
Is this as good as it gets with this action as it is right now?

I don't shoot as much as I would like so I know my shooting could be better but it seems no matter what I do I can't improve.

Any comments?

Tim
Click to expand...
its not the action thats the problem.I have had several trued rem 700 actioned bench guns that shot .3-.4moa at 600yards.not 1 target wonder ether 4 target agg in decent conditions.I would post back what your load is and what twist barrel you have.what contour barrel do you have.maybe someone can give you some advise and get you shooting some small groups.
 
Okay, I will lay it all out here.
Rem L/A with a Kreiger HV 1 in 8 twist 27" finish barrel. Bedded in a Bell and Carlson medalist stock. Has 203 rounds through it.
As I stated before I have been through a bunch of loads so I will just list the best results.

80gr Sierra HPBT 45.5 of H1000 and CCI 250 primers .010 off the lands.
80gr Sierra HPBT 45.2 of RE22 and Fed 210M primers .010 off the lands.

77gr Sierra HPBT 46.7 of H1000 and CCI 250 primers .010 off the lands.

All are shooting 4 shot groups @200 yards @.50 to .75 with a flyer or two that puts me into 1.0 or 1.25. That is why I believe I need more trigger time to try to improve my shots.

I also said before that it is the factory trigger. I don't know what it is at but it is not the lightest.
I am going to try to get to the range tomorrow and see what I can do.

Tim
 
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Hi Tim.
There are a couple of things that you didn`t mention that you might take into account.
First, you don`t mention your benchrest setup. do you use a heavy rear bag, and a stable front rest? Is the B&C Medalist a rounded forend?
For shooting small groups a light trigger is a huge help. a 2oz is perfect but most don`t have a bolt stop.
Al is a great asset to have so close by. He will steer you right.
Last thing, you don`t mention the scope you have mounted for your group shooting. I`d say for this rig you should try a fixed 36x. It is much easier to hit your target when you see your target.
just my 2cents,
Jeff
 
We have lengthy postings shown above that have hundreds of words, but very little meat to the bones.

You are not getting anything like you are supposed to.

If there's any doubt as to your "bench manners," perhaps you could get a hawkeye friend to shoot off 20 rds in your rifle.

I would help if I could, but I do not know what is wrong.

Sincerely hope you get your rifle tuned in better.

Best--
 
How did you arrive at your seating depth? You would really enjoy a Jewel trigger. Have you bedded the stock? How are you judging the wind?
 
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