M
muslmutt
Guest
Just curious, how accurately can you shoot an accurate rifle and load with a 3X9 scope? I seem to need singnificantly more power to really test loads etc..
Thanks.
Matt.
Thanks.
Matt.
Some thoughts
Some of us have a fixed scope such as an old Weaver or in my case a Leupold 24X for working up loads.
HOWEVER..........the magnifaction of a 3X9 can be over come by simple using a larger target. I make my own targets for the distance and power of scope I am using.
I think one of those boosters by Gene Davis would be just the ticket.
Some of us have a fixed scope such as an old Weaver or in my case a Leupold 24X for working up loads.
HOWEVER..........the magnifaction of a 3X9 can be over come by simple using a larger target. I make my own targets for the distance and power of scope I am using.
I think one of those boosters by Gene Davis would be just the ticket.
VarmintGuy
New member
John S: I do not agree with your contention that the shortcomings in achieving all the accuracy a particular Rifle/loading is capable of, can be done with a 3x9 scope and matching it to a particular target type/size!
Yes you can improve the accuracy of a Rifle/loading by "tuning" the target style, type and size with the lower powered scopes - but to get the most out of a particular Rifle/loading you need to use a scope of significant power. In excess of 20 power in my experience.
I have done this so many times that I know it's a fact - I start out with a Rifle I have bought - sometimes with a scope on it already OR I buy a new Rifle and put on it what ever scope I have available to do barrel break in and or function testing or just to make up some once fired brass. THEN when I put on a scope of more power the groups always diminish in size.
Its a natural progression - the more power the better a particular Rifle/loading will shoot - accuracy wise.
I am not saying a Rifle/loading can't shoot well with a 3x9 scope - I am saying it will shoot better when a boost of pwoer comes along! This is especially noticeable when a 20+ power scope is put on the Rifle when it previously had say a 3x9 pwoer scope!
Witness the br type shooters - none of them use 3x9 scopes.
Over the years I also have gone "down" in power with a particular Rifles scope - this being done for various reasons.
The diminishing in scope power causes an increase in group sizes.
Like yourself one of my favorite scopes to use for load development/Rifle tuning is the 24 power Leupold.
Muslmutt: Include me in "the some of us" (and in fact I think its ALL of us) that can and do shoot better by simply applying MORE scope power to a particular Rifle/loading situation.
Interesting subject - and in decades past I have attempted to quantify the progression of accuracy with the progression of a Rifles scope power.
I think today I will simply contend that it (accuracy) undoubtably gets better as scope power increases.
No quantification though from me at this time.
Again - an interesting subject.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
Yes you can improve the accuracy of a Rifle/loading by "tuning" the target style, type and size with the lower powered scopes - but to get the most out of a particular Rifle/loading you need to use a scope of significant power. In excess of 20 power in my experience.
I have done this so many times that I know it's a fact - I start out with a Rifle I have bought - sometimes with a scope on it already OR I buy a new Rifle and put on it what ever scope I have available to do barrel break in and or function testing or just to make up some once fired brass. THEN when I put on a scope of more power the groups always diminish in size.
Its a natural progression - the more power the better a particular Rifle/loading will shoot - accuracy wise.
I am not saying a Rifle/loading can't shoot well with a 3x9 scope - I am saying it will shoot better when a boost of pwoer comes along! This is especially noticeable when a 20+ power scope is put on the Rifle when it previously had say a 3x9 pwoer scope!
Witness the br type shooters - none of them use 3x9 scopes.
Over the years I also have gone "down" in power with a particular Rifles scope - this being done for various reasons.
The diminishing in scope power causes an increase in group sizes.
Like yourself one of my favorite scopes to use for load development/Rifle tuning is the 24 power Leupold.
Muslmutt: Include me in "the some of us" (and in fact I think its ALL of us) that can and do shoot better by simply applying MORE scope power to a particular Rifle/loading situation.
Interesting subject - and in decades past I have attempted to quantify the progression of accuracy with the progression of a Rifles scope power.
I think today I will simply contend that it (accuracy) undoubtably gets better as scope power increases.
No quantification though from me at this time.
Again - an interesting subject.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
John Kielly
Shari's fan club
muslmutt,
40 or so years ago when I was a kid trying to mix it with the big boys shooting bench, I got by with a heavy barrelled Sako L461 with a 3-9 Leupold stuck on top. I got to be able to break ½ MOA aggs most of the time & sometimes placed in a detail, but heck, I had fun. I had one stock with a 3" forend I shot off the bench & another conventional one I used when I dragged the rifle off to the scrub to bust bunnies & foxes.
As the opinion you've had to date goes, when you're looking to wring the ultimate in accuracy, then you'll be more at home with the ultimate in scope power. On the other hand, with a factory or factory style gun, it about gets to be your call about what is accuracy & when you've got there. You'll also need to decide what scope will suit you, or be the best compromise, for all the work you'll do with that gun.
John
40 or so years ago when I was a kid trying to mix it with the big boys shooting bench, I got by with a heavy barrelled Sako L461 with a 3-9 Leupold stuck on top. I got to be able to break ½ MOA aggs most of the time & sometimes placed in a detail, but heck, I had fun. I had one stock with a 3" forend I shot off the bench & another conventional one I used when I dragged the rifle off to the scrub to bust bunnies & foxes.
As the opinion you've had to date goes, when you're looking to wring the ultimate in accuracy, then you'll be more at home with the ultimate in scope power. On the other hand, with a factory or factory style gun, it about gets to be your call about what is accuracy & when you've got there. You'll also need to decide what scope will suit you, or be the best compromise, for all the work you'll do with that gun.
John
M
muslmutt
Guest
Just a BTW I have always used a higher power scope for load development, then sometimes move to a lower power scope, depending on intended use. All of my higher power scopes are committed to other rifles, so now I am attempting to work up a load for a .243 using a 3X9 and wondering how close to a good load I can get.
Butch Lambert
Active member
I have no trouble seeing 22 holes at a 100yds with a 3x9. It ain't a Tasco. We shot hunting rifles Sat. One rifle had a 2 1/2X8 Leupold and We had no trouble seeing the 6BR bullet holes or point of aim. The other had an 8 power Zeiss and of course it was great for the 300SAUM.
I agree with Alinwa.
Butch
I agree with Alinwa.
Butch
VarmintGuy
New member
Alinwa & Butch lambert: I got a great laugh out of your posts.
It appears you are now trying to redefine "accuracy" - no ones talking about the quality of a particular load - the subject is HOW WELL CAN YOU SHOOT A LOAD with limited scope power.
And it appears you are trying to fool yourselves with the foolish notion that you can shoot as well with a 3x9 scope as you can with a 20+ power scope on a particular Rifle.
You can't!
Under certain light conditions and in certain places on a target I can see 17 and 20 caliber bullet holes with my scopes set on 8 and 10 power - what in the world does that have to do with the advantages of using higher power scopes to obtain better accuracy?
Again if you two are saying you can shoot a particular Rifle/loading as accurately with a 3x9 scope as you can with a 20+ power scope you are only fooling yourselves!
And I don't think you're doing a very good job of that even.
You must ask yourselves, AND answer yourselves, this question "why do those seeking the utmost in accuracy (br competitors) use scopes of up to 45 power and not those of 9 power"?
Once you accomplish that simple task it should put an end to your foolish notions.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
It appears you are now trying to redefine "accuracy" - no ones talking about the quality of a particular load - the subject is HOW WELL CAN YOU SHOOT A LOAD with limited scope power.
And it appears you are trying to fool yourselves with the foolish notion that you can shoot as well with a 3x9 scope as you can with a 20+ power scope on a particular Rifle.
You can't!
Under certain light conditions and in certain places on a target I can see 17 and 20 caliber bullet holes with my scopes set on 8 and 10 power - what in the world does that have to do with the advantages of using higher power scopes to obtain better accuracy?
Again if you two are saying you can shoot a particular Rifle/loading as accurately with a 3x9 scope as you can with a 20+ power scope you are only fooling yourselves!
And I don't think you're doing a very good job of that even.
You must ask yourselves, AND answer yourselves, this question "why do those seeking the utmost in accuracy (br competitors) use scopes of up to 45 power and not those of 9 power"?
Once you accomplish that simple task it should put an end to your foolish notions.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
Butch Lambert
Active member
Varmint Guy,
You are a comedian. Have you ever been to a hunter class match?
Butch
You are a comedian. Have you ever been to a hunter class match?
Butch
VarmintGuy
New member
Butch Lambert: No comedy at all regarding the foolishness you are trying to endorse!
Have you ever been to a Bench Rest competition?
Are you still sticking with the "3x9 foolishness" by the way?
LOL!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
Have you ever been to a Bench Rest competition?
Are you still sticking with the "3x9 foolishness" by the way?
LOL!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
L
Louis Boyd
Guest
The main function of a scope is aiming, but it's also helpul to be able to acquire and identify the target. You won't make any firends or take home any trophies at a benchrest match if you shoot at you're neighbors target, even if you shoot a 0.15" group. That doesn't happen often.
Too much magnification is rarely a problem in benchres though it's not at all clear that more magnification produces better accuracy. I believe there is some pyschological advantage of seeing your target spread out with bullets holes looking like dimes on a dinner plate, but that doesn't necesarily translate into making smaller groups.
One disadvatage of the typical 3-9 scope is that the retical thickness can hide the entire group. The Hunter class BR guys use 6x scopes as requried by the rules but with very fine reticles. So fine that the scopes are nearly useless for hunting game.
Too much magnification is rarely a problem in benchres though it's not at all clear that more magnification produces better accuracy. I believe there is some pyschological advantage of seeing your target spread out with bullets holes looking like dimes on a dinner plate, but that doesn't necesarily translate into making smaller groups.
One disadvatage of the typical 3-9 scope is that the retical thickness can hide the entire group. The Hunter class BR guys use 6x scopes as requried by the rules but with very fine reticles. So fine that the scopes are nearly useless for hunting game.
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beemanbeme
Guest
I have a old Weaver T12 that I use for my (hunting) load development since a 3x9 would be the upper end of the scope range of power that I would use on a hunting rifle. A single power scope gives you a clearer sight picture and this old T scope has fine cross hairs. Once I have the load finished, I put whatever scope I'm gonna use on the rifle and sight it in.
I don't see why a fellow couldn't use a 3x9 scope to develop loads. The size of the groups would be relative to one another not some fixed standard. The smallest group would still be the smallest group even if it was four feet acrost.
I don't see why a fellow couldn't use a 3x9 scope to develop loads. The size of the groups would be relative to one another not some fixed standard. The smallest group would still be the smallest group even if it was four feet acrost.
M
muslmutt
Guest
I have never been to a benchrest or hunter class match. I have read quite a bit on benchrest shooting and a little on the match rules. I have not read anything on hunter class match rules. Are competitors limited to scope power by those rules?
Butch Lambert
Active member
Hunter class is limited to 6X scopes. They also have to have a case capacity of the 30-30 or larger. Yes Varmint person, I have shot in a Benchrest match or three. They are unlimited on scopes.
Butch
Butch
C
CHRIS.T
Guest
Varmintguy,surely you make these comments in jest???.Can you explain how it is that some incredible groups are shot using aperture sights or have you not seen this???,Have you been to a Hunter class shoot???obviously not from your comments above,restricted to 6x power and shoot very precisely,maybe not to your standard but very well all the same.The human eye is an amazing bit of gear which can centre objects very well..............but hey your welcome to your opinion.............but sometimes it is better to have said nothing...........................................well you know the ending.Oh and another thing,you don't have to be able to see the holes/hole in the target,you just have to be able to hold the same point of aim.
Regards Chris..
.The human eye is an amazing bit of gear which can centre objects very well..............but hey your welcome to your opinion.............but sometimes it is better to have said nothing...........................................well you know the ending.Oh and another thing,you don't have to be able to see the holes/hole in the target,you just have to be able to hold the same point of aim.Regards Chris..
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VarmintGuy doesn't realize that Hunter IS BENCHREST....... Nor does VarmintGuy realize that any Hunter Bench Rest competitor could shoot rings around any rig that VarmintGuy owns.......... Bring your best rifle to a match VarmintGuy, shoot your best group and a HBR guy will shoot a 5-shot group INSIDE YOUR GROUP, with a 6power scope.
VarmintGuy, I DON'T get a laugh from your posts, I'm just trying to correct your ignorant proclamations.
A'gain.....
al
VarmintGuy, I DON'T get a laugh from your posts, I'm just trying to correct your ignorant proclamations.
A'gain.....
al
D
dbridges
Guest
Having tried load development with both a 3-9 and with a 6-18 I can say that it's a lot easier with a higher powered scope.
The main reason is that it removes a lot of doubt. Particularly when the magnitude of the variations on the target are not much different to the thickness of the reticle.
The main reason is that it removes a lot of doubt. Particularly when the magnitude of the variations on the target are not much different to the thickness of the reticle.
S
sicero
Guest
I think Varmint Guy did a pretty good job of answering the question that was asked. I shoot groups only for load development and my 3X9s have heavy X hairs and no AO. I do much better with a target scope with more power. Kenny
VarmintGuy
New member
Sicero: Thank you for your kind and pertinent comments!
And there in is the "rub" - I, gave an answer to the inquiry!
The "couple" of aloof types keep going off on impertinent tangents!!!
Its laughable!
No answers just tangents and avoidances - puzzling that.
Yet I wonder why none of these aloof types dare answer (or EVEN DENY!) my contention, that indeed, a particular Rifle/loading will shoot more accurately with MORE scope power!!!
LOL!
Butch Lambert says "they are unlimited on scopes".... well excuse me but thats only HALF the correct answer there Butch!
I have mentioned the important half already - and obviously it needs to be repeated for some of the aloofs!
The other half of the answer is BECAUSE they can obtain more accuracy with more scope power!!!
Sheesh!
Then alinwa goes off on an aloof display that embarrasses himself and even some other lesser aloof types by inferring that he knows how well (or in this case how poorly!) EVERY Rifle in America shoots!
Now EVERYONE has to admit that is funny!
And arrogant beyond simple description!
By the way alinwa - you don't know how well EVERY Rifle in America shoots not even every Rifle in Washington!
You call my proclamation "ignorant" there alinwa, yet you do not have the courage to deny it!
I will ask you directly and point blank - will a particular Rifle/loading shoot better with a 20 power scope or with a 9 power scope?
Somehow I feel you will avoid this "contention" of mine and head off on more personal attacks and grandiose, but irrelevant, proclamations!
Tone down your arrogance several levels there alinwa, its unbecoming and immature!
I am eagerly awaiting YOUR "ignorant proclamation" rebuttal!
He-he!
CHRIS T.: I have seen excellent groups fired with lower powered scopes - never said I hadn't.
What does THAT have to do with using more scope power to achieve better accuracy?
Do YOU believe that adding more scope power to a particular Rifle/load WON'T increase its accuracy?
CHRIS T. I believe its time for you to conform to your own advice - it would be better for you to say NOTHING than to publicly have to admit you are wrong - or stay silent and have public egg on your face!
CHRIS T. I never said YOU or I or anyone else had to be able to see holes in a target - that pettard was hoisted by another aloof type in an apparent attempt at denying REALITY?
That was a "tangent" that even I was puzzled about. Irrelevant it was and is - but don't attribute it to me, please!
And your last sentence touches upon a point that IS relevant and that is "you just have to be able to hold the same point of aim".
Maybe you accidentally added that bit of obviousness?
But indeed it goes to the heart of my contention (reality!) which AGAIN is with more scope power "you can better hold the same point of aim"!
Otherwise the folks at br matches would ALL be using more affordable scopes - like 3x9's!
Again, I am LOL!
All right which of you will step up and deny reality or have the honesty to admit my contention is correct?
I won't hold my breath - its an ego type thing with some of you guys, isn't it?
An inflated ego is not an enviable personality trait by the way!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
And there in is the "rub" - I, gave an answer to the inquiry!
The "couple" of aloof types keep going off on impertinent tangents!!!
Its laughable!
No answers just tangents and avoidances - puzzling that.
Yet I wonder why none of these aloof types dare answer (or EVEN DENY!) my contention, that indeed, a particular Rifle/loading will shoot more accurately with MORE scope power!!!
LOL!
Butch Lambert says "they are unlimited on scopes".... well excuse me but thats only HALF the correct answer there Butch!
I have mentioned the important half already - and obviously it needs to be repeated for some of the aloofs!
The other half of the answer is BECAUSE they can obtain more accuracy with more scope power!!!
Sheesh!
Then alinwa goes off on an aloof display that embarrasses himself and even some other lesser aloof types by inferring that he knows how well (or in this case how poorly!) EVERY Rifle in America shoots!
Now EVERYONE has to admit that is funny!
And arrogant beyond simple description!
By the way alinwa - you don't know how well EVERY Rifle in America shoots not even every Rifle in Washington!
You call my proclamation "ignorant" there alinwa, yet you do not have the courage to deny it!
I will ask you directly and point blank - will a particular Rifle/loading shoot better with a 20 power scope or with a 9 power scope?
Somehow I feel you will avoid this "contention" of mine and head off on more personal attacks and grandiose, but irrelevant, proclamations!
Tone down your arrogance several levels there alinwa, its unbecoming and immature!
I am eagerly awaiting YOUR "ignorant proclamation" rebuttal!
He-he!
CHRIS T.: I have seen excellent groups fired with lower powered scopes - never said I hadn't.
What does THAT have to do with using more scope power to achieve better accuracy?
Do YOU believe that adding more scope power to a particular Rifle/load WON'T increase its accuracy?
CHRIS T. I believe its time for you to conform to your own advice - it would be better for you to say NOTHING than to publicly have to admit you are wrong - or stay silent and have public egg on your face!
CHRIS T. I never said YOU or I or anyone else had to be able to see holes in a target - that pettard was hoisted by another aloof type in an apparent attempt at denying REALITY?
That was a "tangent" that even I was puzzled about. Irrelevant it was and is - but don't attribute it to me, please!
And your last sentence touches upon a point that IS relevant and that is "you just have to be able to hold the same point of aim".
Maybe you accidentally added that bit of obviousness?
But indeed it goes to the heart of my contention (reality!) which AGAIN is with more scope power "you can better hold the same point of aim"!
Otherwise the folks at br matches would ALL be using more affordable scopes - like 3x9's!
Again, I am LOL!
All right which of you will step up and deny reality or have the honesty to admit my contention is correct?
I won't hold my breath - its an ego type thing with some of you guys, isn't it?
An inflated ego is not an enviable personality trait by the way!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy