30PPC / 30BR / 222 versus the 6PPC

A

abintx

Guest
Did a Paradigm Shift take place?

Will the preloaded, clean less frequent, 30PPC / H-4198 combination, [the new world record holder @ .0077”], Or, the 30BR [remember Jackie Schmidt’s agg?], replace the clean after every target, reload at the range, 6PPC / N133, 8208, LT-32 combinations, as the new Cartridge(s) of Choice in the LV 100 yard category?

Keep in mind that the previous world record .009” group was shot with a 222. To my knowledge it has never been held by the 6PPC.

Is the 6PPC ever going to be capable of exceeding both of those cartridges noteworthy achievements? :)
 
Individual group records are impressive, but, as I am sure you are well aware, matches, and HOF points are won by aggregates, and grand aggregates, and your post refers to one, single group record, at 100 yards. There are many more still standing, that were shot with 6PPCs. I wouldn't call game over just yet. :)
 
I'm more interested in seeing what comes out of the new NBRSA sporter rules. I kind of which that they read "Must weigh 10.5 lbs and be 308 Winchester or less...other than that, run what you brung" ;).
 
abintx said:
Did a Paradigm Shift take place?

Will the preloaded, clean less frequent, 30PPC / H-4198 combination, [the new world record holder @ .0077”], Or, the 30BR [remember Jackie Schmidt’s agg?], replace the clean after every target, reload at the range, 6PPC / N133, 8208, LT-32 combinations, as the new Cartridge(s) of Choice in the LV 100 yard category?
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No.

Boyd is correct.
 
Nope....

It's still 99% shooter and 1% equipment (if that). Soooo....we all still have a chance.:rolleyes:

virg
 
virg said:
It's still 99% shooter and 1% equipment (if that). Soooo....we all still have a chance.:rolleyes:

virg
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You don't really believe that do you ?
The right = rifle, rest, ammo, wind flags will let the BR shooter just touch the trigger for a well placed shot.=95% equipment 5% shooter. IMHO
 
virg said:
It's still 99% shooter and 1% equipment (if that). Soooo....we all still have a chance.:rolleyes:

virg
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Virg, I think I understand what you are saying, if there is the assumption that all the equipment on the line is good. But I'm not sure that is always the case. Jackie S some time ago offered the opinion that a high percentage of the rifles on the line are NOT in tune and, therefore, are not capable of winning. I know after suffering through a summer of shooting a worn out barrel (at least I think that was the problem), that everything needs to be right with the rifle to have a reasonable chance of winning. I graphed match results with that barrel, and over the course of a year and a half it was clear that it gradually went from shooting 22 X's at 100 yards to 14 X's. Now shooting a 6PPC barrel for a year and a half would be laughable to top group competitors, but this was a 30 BR, which lasts a lot longer.
 
Yes....

mks said:
Virg, I think I understand what you are saying, if there is the assumption that all the equipment on the line is good. But I'm not sure that is always the case. Jackie S some time ago offered the opinion that a high percentage of the rifles on the line are NOT in tune and, therefore, are not capable of winning. I know after suffering through a summer of shooting a worn out barrel (at least I think that was the problem), that everything needs to be right with the rifle to have a reasonable chance of winning. I graphed match results with that barrel, and over the course of a year and a half it was clear that it gradually went from shooting 22 X's at 100 yards to 14 X's. Now shooting a 6PPC barrel for a year and a half would be laughable to top group competitors, but this was a 30 BR, which lasts a lot longer.
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Yes...my statement was assuming that the equipment was about equal; and only considering the top shooters that are capable of this type of performance. A good example was at the Louisiana State Hunter match a few years ago. Jim Hostetler (not sure of the spelling here) shot a 50/5X at 300yds and the next match shot a 46. His statement was, "I guess sometimes the wind blows them in as well". God...that was a nice looking target. We all signed it with many pats on the back. Can't rightly remember but I think I came in third in that match. It was one sweltering hot two days.:rolleyes:

virg
 
abintx said:
Will the preloaded, clean less frequent, 30PPC / H-4198 combination, [the new world record holder @ .0077”], Or, the 30BR [remember Jackie Schmidt’s agg?], replace the clean after every target, reload at the range, 6PPC / N133, 8208, LT-32 combinations, as the new Cartridge(s) of Choice in the LV 100 yard category?
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One thing to consider is that if there is a constant level of accuracy in bullet making, say 0.0001" in bullet jackets and 0.1 gr in weight, these accuracy limits are a smaller percentage of the total in larger bullets. Another thing is that a given CG offset causes less wobble in a heavier bullet, and a slower spinning bullet has lower centrifugal force to cause wobble with an offset CG. The 30's stabilize with a 17-18 twist, whereas the 6's need 14. It would be interesting to hear what Brian Litz has to say about this.

Same with barrel making, a given level of machining accuracy yields a more accurate large bore, percentage wise.

Another point I want to offer is that perhaps even the 30's need to be tuned throughout the day, whether with the load or a tuner. In my very limited experience, the tuner needs to be adjusted for top accuracy as temperature changes.
 
virg said:
It's still 99% shooter and 1% equipment (if that). Soooo....we all still have a chance.:rolleyes:

virg
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Not even close to correct. I will agree it takes a really good shooter to win but no where near 99% of the equipment on the line is capable of winning.
Dick
 
Bud,
Either you are kidding, or you know not whereof you speak. It is sort of like saying that it is easy to go fast in a race car, overlooking the fact that all the other fellows are driving one too.
 
Yes; I certainly believe it....

Bud said:
You don't really believe that do you ?
The right = rifle, rest, ammo, wind flags will let the BR shooter just touch the trigger for a well placed shot.=95% equipment 5% shooter. IMHO
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Because the winning shooter WILL have the right rifle, rest, load, flags, and components. The occasional club shooter is not considered in my 99 percent shooter statement. My 99% shooter is in the Gene Biggs, Tony Boyer, Gene Bucky, and the other often time winners who compete in National competition. In this rare realm, it's the shooter.

virg
 
Boyd Allen said:
Bud,
Either you are kidding, or you know not whereof you speak. It is sort of like saying that it is easy to go fast in a race car, overlooking the fact that all the other fellows are driving one too.
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The race car analogy fits pretty well, I think. Any given weekend, only about a quarter of the cars in the Sprint Cup field seem good enough to have a legitimate chance of winning, and it's not always the same cars. All the shops can build great cars, but tuning them to the track conditions is what gets that last increment of performance out of them. Of those top cars, the winner is often determined by race strategy and by the luck of staying out of the wrecks.
 
It's like everything else. You have to have the whole package to be competitive.

1. A competitive gun.
2. The knowledge to get a tune and keep it.
3. The ability to read conditions.
4. The skill to drive the rifle.

I think that on any given day, I have about 1.5 to 2 of those.
 
SGJennings said:
Virg,

With respect, that's kind of assuming in your conclusion.

Greg J.
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I have to agree with Greg.
If you make a statement assuming certain limited parameters you need to make the parameters known to the forum.
We are real shooters, typewriter shooters , retired shooters, even wishful shooters but for mindreaders you need a different forum.
 
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