300 Yard Score......fast twist High BC 6mm vs slow twist low BC 30

jackie schmidt

New member
We shot 300 yards last Sunday at the new Walker County BR range. I haven't shot 300 in registered Competition in 15 years.

Different shooters chose different calibers and chamberings. Several were shooting 6mm BR's, (or some variation of it), with 1-8 twist barrels and high BC bullets, several were shooting 6PPC's with regular match bullets, and some were shooting their 30BR's.

Of the top 4, two were shooting a high BC 6mm, and two 30 BR's with 112's, the same load as was shot at 100.

A 30 won it, a 6mm was 2d, a 30 was 3d, and a 6mm wash 4th. Kind of a wash.

I looked at most of the targets, and aside from bullet size, the targets showed no distinct advantage of one over the other. The superior BC of the 6mm simply did not "shoot through the wind" any better than the 30.

I have always thought that at 300 yards, shooters are still in the range of precision flag reading, just like at 100 and 200, and aging capability still trumps all considerations. In short, you miss a condition, it ain't going in the 10 ring.

How many of you switch to another, seemingly more suitable chambering, when you shoot 300 yards. I have thought about building a fast twist HV since we will be shooting several 300 yard matches, but if I can't make it group as well as my 30, I might simply be trading overall accuracy for down range ballistics.

Or, maybe 300 is still to short a distance for the advantages of the high BC package to kick in.
 
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We shot 300 yards last Sunday at the new Walker County BR range. I haven't shot 300 in registered Competition in 15 years.

Different shooters chose different calibers and chamberings. Several were shooting 6mm BR's, (or some variation of it), with 1-8 twist barrels and high BC bullets, several were shooting 6PPC's with regular match bullets, and some were shooting their 30BR's.

Of the top 4, two were shooting a high BC 6mm, and two 30 BR's with 112's, the same load as was shot at 100.

A 30 won it, a 6mm was 2d, a 30 was 3d, and a 6mm wash 4th. Kind of a wash.

I looked at most of the targets, and aside from bullet size, the targets showed no distinct advantage of one over the other. The superior BC of the 6mm simply did not "shoot through the wind" any better than the 30.

I have always thought that at 300 yards, shooters are still in the range of precision flag reading, just like at 100 and 200, and aging capability still trumps all considerations. In short, you miss a condition, it ain't going in the 10 ring.

How many of you switch to another, seemingly more suitable chambering, when you shoot 300 yards. I have thought about building a fast twist HV since we will be shooting several 300 yard matches, but if I can't make it group as well as my 30, I might simply be trading overall accuracy for down range ballistics.

Or, maybe 300 is still to short a distance for the advantages of the high BC package to kick in.
I played with the idea a few years back on the caliber neutral UBR targets without much luck. As you said..miss a switch and it still didn't go where you wanted it to. That sums it up very well.

It was a 10 twist 6br that shot well. I shot 95 Bibs and 87 Bergers in it, at around 3,100fps IIRC.. Both did shoot good. I even won a 100 yard match in very light, trigger pulling type conditions, once. We all know that combination isn't "supposed" to be able to run with the ppc's and 30 br's in those conditions, but I got the fake wood for it, anyway. The whole idea was to shoot it in 300 yard matches and when the weather man said the wind was going to howl, at 200.

In spite of it shooting pretty well, my 30 is still my most accurate rifle. The idea of cheating the wind just didn't pan out well enough to pursue it for very long.
 
I shoot some 300 yard matches and have decided to use my 6PPC. I won a match in March shooting a 6 Dasher, but I believe that the PPC has an accuracy edge. Also, I am inspired by the 0.149" group that Gary Ocock shot several years ago with his 6 PPC;). The .30 BR's are certainly accurate enough, but the little bumble bee shaped bullets are blown about more than I care for. Good shooting...James Mock
 

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When you get a minute

go to the internationalbenchrest.com site and select match results/rankings tab, score and look over the results. Mostly east coast from Maine to Georgia. The predominant caliber is .30 and the BR or a variation of it in the VFS class.

I think, based on my own experience, that agging and bullet diameter trumps ballistics of a 6mm bullet at this range. Personally I have shot 112s and 118 BIBs at 300 and do find the 118s on his 1" jacket to be arguably better in the wind in my BR.

If I was going to experiment I would get a good Henriksen reamer in 30x47 based on the Lapua 6.5x47 case and have it ground to produce enough throat to use 125 or 127 7-ogive BIB 1.080" bullets. You still should be able to get away with using a 1-17 twist barrel, especially in your hot Texas climate. When he was shooting a lot, Bill Sargent from Vermont used that combination with great success at 200-300 yds using 10X bullets I believe of that length and weight, in both hunter and VFS classes. --Greg
 
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I was going to shoot my 6ppc, but had another 50 rounds pre-loaded for the 30BR, so I just shot it.

We had a good warm up match to get dead on sighted, as the condition was just about zero. I shot a couple of 3 shot groups that were around 5/8 verticle. I turned the tuner and flattened it out, but went back to the verticle tune out of fear that too much horizontal would just catepillar across the target.

By the math, the 112 30 cal at 3000 FPS is barely hitting 2000 at 300 yards, and the drop was 25 + clicks from the 36 Valdada from 100 yards.

But the darned thing, in my opinion, shot quite well. The two nines I shot were so close that the scorer had to use a reticle, and both of those were just a tad high rather than straight across.

As for shooting what holds the record, every record in 100-200-300 Group is held by a 6PPC, except for Mike Stenne's phenomenal .007 with a 30.

This whole thing was kind of an eye opener for me, in that over a good set of flags and in a decent condition, a Rifle's agging capability is A huge factor, even out at 300 yards.
 
I shoot some 300 yard matches and have decided to use my 6PPC. I won a match in March shooting a 6 Dasher, but I believe that the PPC has an accuracy edge. Also, I am inspired by the 0.149" group that Gary Ocock shot several years ago with his 6 PPC;). The .30 BR's are certainly accurate enough, but the little bumble bee shaped bullets are blown about more than I care for. Good shooting...James Mock

Just did a quick windage calculation, using JBM Ballistics (Simplified Trajectory) Calculator: allowing a generous .28 BC (G1) for a 68 Gr. 6mm bullet, at 3400 FPS MV, the 300 yard drift, in a 10 MPH full value crosswind, would be 6.8". The, "little bumble bee shaped", .30 Cal., 112, with a realistic .310 BC (G1), at a mere 3040 FPS MV, is dragged 0.2" less, or, 6.6". ;) When we calculate for doping, it's a dead-heat: the winner, and those keeping his feet to the fire, will be making not much more than the equivalent of a 1.2 MPH error!:eek: Thus, Jackie is correct - unless one is doping with the leaders, BC doesn't amount to much: edges are CRUEL - they only work when you are winning! :eek:;) Keep 'em ON the X! RG
 
We shot 300 yards last Sunday at the new Walker County BR range. I haven't shot 300 in registered Competition in 15 years.

Different shooters chose different calibers and chamberings. Several were shooting 6mm BR's, (or some variation of it), with 1-8 twist barrels and high BC bullets, several were shooting 6PPC's with regular match bullets, and some were shooting their 30BR's.

Of the top 4, two were shooting a high BC 6mm, and two 30 BR's with 112's, the same load as was shot at 100.

A 30 won it, a 6mm was 2d, a 30 was 3d, and a 6mm wash 4th. Kind of a wash.

I looked at most of the targets, and aside from bullet size, the targets showed no distinct advantage of one over the other. The superior BC of the 6mm simply did not "shoot through the wind" any better than the 30.

I have always thought that at 300 yards, shooters are still in the range of precision flag reading, just like at 100 and 200, and aging capability still trumps all considerations. In short, you miss a condition, it ain't going in the 10 ring.

How many of you switch to another, seemingly more suitable chambering, when you shoot 300 yards. I have thought about building a fast twist HV since we will be shooting several 300 yard matches, but if I can't make it group as well as my 30, I might simply be trading overall accuracy for down range ballistics.

Or, maybe 300 is still to short a distance for the advantages of the high BC package to kick in.

Congratulations to Dwayne and Richard Pullum for piloting their BIB bullets to a pair of top three placements - respectively, 1st & 3rd. My spies inform me that Dwayne stuck with .30 Cal., 112s, while brother Richard mixed it up, with both 112 thirty Cals., & 67 gr. 6mm. :)

For the 2013, 14, & 15 seasons, I used a .25x47 HBR, with 110Gr. BT (G1 BC = .53) for NBRSA Hunter Class events, I can confidently state that the high(er) BC provided no, "free lunch", and precious few crumbs - I either made good decisions and executed, or, I didn't.

I believe that only when I was, "on", did I enjoy a slight advantage. Most bad shots (anything but a ten) were clearly misses, and good shots, either Xes, or, tens - one won't get many "beggars" with a sub caliber! :eek::)

For a realistic probability of wind drift advantage, divide the 10 MPH drifts by ten. :) Keep 'em ON the X! RG

P.S. Should you opt to employ an odd-ball caliber, for either group, or, score, be prepared to keep the scorer using the correct reticle - Pavlov rules! :)
 
I might pass on some information from a slightly different direction. UBR uses a caliber neutral target, so there is no advantage in using a .308 over a .243 bullet. Some shooters have felt that they would gain an accuracy advantage @ 300 yards using a heavy .243 such a 105 or 108. The records indicate that this hasn't been the case. If anything a lighter bullet being driven faster may have an advantage over the heavier. A quick glance at the records this morning tells me that all the 300 yd UBR records are currently held by .243 bullets in slow twist barrels, 6 BR & 6 PPC.

Rick
 
The load with the shortest time to target will have the least amount of drift caused by crosswind.


.

Simply untrue.

The bullet that slows down the least will have the least drift.

The wind DOES NOT blow the bullet over.

the bullet drags itself over

The bullet is neither aeroplane nor leaf......it acts in a completely different (and completely understood!) fashion.

This isn't an opinion
 
Simply untrue.

The bullet that slows down the least will have the least drift.

The wind DOES NOT blow the bullet over.

the bullet drags itself over

The bullet is neither aeroplane nor leaf......it acts in a completely different (and completely understood!) fashion.

This isn't an opinion

I can only agree with one of your statements. A modern bullet is neither an airplane nor a leaf.

With regards to your attempt to refute the idea that a bullet with the shortest flight time will have the least drift, I don't see how anyone could argue with the fundamentals of that statement.

Minimizing time to the target is the whole idea behind trying to combine the highest possible MV along with a bullet with the highest possible BC (lowest drag). You want to launch it as fast as possible and have it maintain that high speed as long as possible, assuming accuracy remains the same or at least not degraded to an unacceptable degree. In simple terms, lasers out-shoot sling shots.

As for slowing down the least, think about it. Selecting a high BC bullet because it has less drag and therefore slows down less than a low BC bullet makes sense, all other things being equal. But it's far from the whole story especially because "all other things" are hardly ever equal. Consider a 500fps bullet with zero drag vs a 4000fps bullet which has high drag and arrives at the target at 2000fps because it slows down so much. The imaginary zero drag slow bullet arrives at the target (much later) still at 500 fps. I'll take the fast, high drag bullet even though it slows down the most. Shorter flight time wins the day. High BC is not the whole answer.

Yes, wind does indeed "blow the bullet over". Consider a round musket ball. It is effected by wind drift just like anything else. True, modern bullets react slightly differently than musket balls, but only slightly differently and not because a lateral shift in POI when shooting a modern bullet a cross-wind somehow violates the laws of physics. The primary shift in POI caused by a cross-wind is actually caused by the cross-wind, not the dynamics of a spinning bullet. Every golfer knows this and so do football quarterbacks throwing long forward passes.

It is true that a typical bullet spinning at more than a quarter of a million RPM which is shot in a (roughly) parabolic arc while it is aimed off axis to compensate for a cross wind will NOT behave exactly like a simple musket ball. The modern bullet has an initial angle of attack because its axis is not perfectly aligned with the relative wind as it exits the muzzle and the arcing flight path combined with the bullet's spin further complicates the ballistic details when compared with a simple, non rotating ball. However, these differences are small and much of the change in POI caused by the dynamics associated with a spinning bullet is evident in still air. True, exterior ballistics related to modern bullets are well studied, quite complicated, and, for the most part, understood. But bullets still obey basic physics.

I suppose you could say a long skinny spinning bullet "drags itself" because of aerodynamic effects, but this change in POI is small when compared with the fundamental drift caused by the simple effect of the crosswind "blowing" the bullet off the basic POA.
 
I can only agree with one of your statements. A modern bullet is neither an airplane nor a leaf.

With regards to your attempt to refute the idea that a bullet with the shortest flight time will have the least drift, I don't see how anyone could argue with the fundamentals of that statement.

Minimizing time to the target is the whole idea behind trying to combine the highest possible MV along with a bullet with the highest possible BC (lowest drag). You want to launch it as fast as possible and have it maintain that high speed as long as possible, assuming accuracy remains the same or at least not degraded to an unacceptable degree. In simple terms, lasers out-shoot sling shots.

As for slowing down the least, think about it. Selecting a high BC bullet because it has less drag and therefore slows down less than a low BC bullet makes sense, all other things being equal. But it's far from the whole story especially because "all other things" are hardly ever equal. Consider a 500fps bullet with zero drag vs a 4000fps bullet which has high drag and arrives at the target at 2000fps because it slows down so much. The imaginary zero drag slow bullet arrives at the target (much later) still at 500 fps. I'll take the fast, high drag bullet even though it slows down the most. Shorter flight time wins the day. High BC is not the whole answer.

Yes, wind does indeed "blow the bullet over". Consider a round musket ball. It is effected by wind drift just like anything else. True, modern bullets react slightly differently than musket balls, but only slightly differently and not because a lateral shift in POI when shooting a modern bullet a cross-wind somehow violates the laws of physics. The primary shift in POI caused by a cross-wind is actually caused by the cross-wind, not the dynamics of a spinning bullet. Every golfer knows this and so do football quarterbacks throwing long forward passes.

It is true that a typical bullet spinning at more than a quarter of a million RPM which is shot in a (roughly) parabolic arc while it is aimed off axis to compensate for a cross wind will NOT behave exactly like a simple musket ball. The modern bullet has an initial angle of attack because its axis is not perfectly aligned with the relative wind as it exits the muzzle and the arcing flight path combined with the bullet's spin further complicates the ballistic details when compared with a simple, non rotating ball. However, these differences are small and much of the change in POI caused by the dynamics associated with a spinning bullet is evident in still air. True, exterior ballistics related to modern bullets are well studied, quite complicated, and, for the most part, understood. But bullets still obey basic physics.

I suppose you could say a long skinny spinning bullet "drags itself" because of aerodynamic effects, but this change in POI is small when compared with the fundamental drift caused by the simple effect of the crosswind "blowing" the bullet off the basic POA.
Huh????Please do some reading on the subject before you dismiss all of Al's statements. James
 
I can only agree with one of your statements. A modern bullet is neither an airplane nor a leaf.

With regards to your attempt to refute the idea that a bullet with the shortest flight time will have the least drift, I don't see how anyone could argue with the fundamentals of that statement.

Minimizing time to the target is the whole idea behind trying to combine the highest possible MV along with a bullet with the highest possible BC (lowest drag). You want to launch it as fast as possible and have it maintain that high speed as long as possible, assuming accuracy remains the same or at least not degraded to an unacceptable degree. In simple terms, lasers out-shoot sling shots.

As for slowing down the least, think about it. Selecting a high BC bullet because it has less drag and therefore slows down less than a low BC bullet makes sense, all other things being equal. But it's far from the whole story especially because "all other things" are hardly ever equal. Consider a 500fps bullet with zero drag vs a 4000fps bullet which has high drag and arrives at the target at 2000fps because it slows down so much. The imaginary zero drag slow bullet arrives at the target (much later) still at 500 fps. I'll take the fast, high drag bullet even though it slows down the most. Shorter flight time wins the day. High BC is not the whole answer.

Yes, wind does indeed "blow the bullet over". Consider a round musket ball. It is effected by wind drift just like anything else. True, modern bullets react slightly differently than musket balls, but only slightly differently and not because a lateral shift in POI when shooting a modern bullet a cross-wind somehow violates the laws of physics. The primary shift in POI caused by a cross-wind is actually caused by the cross-wind, not the dynamics of a spinning bullet. Every golfer knows this and so do football quarterbacks throwing long forward passes.

It is true that a typical bullet spinning at more than a quarter of a million RPM which is shot in a (roughly) parabolic arc while it is aimed off axis to compensate for a cross wind will NOT behave exactly like a simple musket ball. The modern bullet has an initial angle of attack because its axis is not perfectly aligned with the relative wind as it exits the muzzle and the arcing flight path combined with the bullet's spin further complicates the ballistic details when compared with a simple, non rotating ball. However, these differences are small and much of the change in POI caused by the dynamics associated with a spinning bullet is evident in still air. True, exterior ballistics related to modern bullets are well studied, quite complicated, and, for the most part, understood. But bullets still obey basic physics.

I suppose you could say a long skinny spinning bullet "drags itself" because of aerodynamic effects, but this change in POI is small when compared with the fundamental drift caused by the simple effect of the crosswind "blowing" the bullet off the basic POA.


simply....

wrong.


sorry.


As I stated, this is not an opinion.


Regardless "what you would choose" the aforementioned 500fps bullet with zero drag would show essentially ZERO drift whereas the 4000fps bullet would drift wildly. As anyone who's actually USED both would know. In simple fact, a lead slug fired from a Sharps Big 50 will go through the crosswind 'WHup-WHup-WHup' for three or four seconds and hit the 1000yd buffler whilst the 40gr 22-250 bullet will SIZZLE thru the same air, the SAME crosswind in 1/3 the time, and miss by 20ft.......

It's physics

It's ballistics

And it's well understood.....and contrary to popular belief round balls are governed by the same laws as rear-balanced spin-stabilized conical projectiles.

If you were right, you could drop a bullet off the barn roof for three seconds and the bullet would "blow over."

I've done this, it doesn't, much.

Mann did this (read 'The Bullet's Flight From Powder to Target: The Internal and External Ballistics of Small Arms' by Franklin W. Mann, it's available online for free) they didn't. This did truly puzzle the estimable Mr Mann and he spent his life trying to solve the conundrum.

Others since then have solved the conundrum.

Again.

The wind DOES NOT blow the bullet over, nor does it "roll on the wind" as they're still teaching jarheads to this day......the bullet IS SUCKED OVER by it's own deceleration-based drag. this drag is simply re-aligned by the wind vector that the bullet "feels," a combination of IT'S OWN WIND of 2000mph (The Big Suck) with the small sideward component added by the crosswind.



Now, 2 IDENTICAL bullets with different velocities will show different "wind drift" with the faster bullet generally showing less drift.......when talking about two identical bullets, both supersonic, Jerry is right. BUT...The difference is minute, TINY, infinitesimally small, generally swallowed up by other effects but YES...... TWO IDENTICAL BULLETS, the faster one will have less drift. Not much less.......you'll never know it as a 200fps change (say 3200 to 3400) in a 10mph direct cross is only .009 or NINE THOUSANDTHS OF AN INCH at 100yds with a modern BR bullet. With the older, blunter stubby bullets this might be as much as .012 inches at 100yds and can be as much as an inch at 300, BUT THAT'S FOR A 10mph CHANGE!!! Missing a bump of 2-3mph is only a couple thou....


really, a couple thou.......002 inches for 200fps


What Jackie's experiencing is simply that to a decent trigger-puller in "normal" conditions accuracy always trumps BC and generally speaking short, fat point-blank BR bullets are MUCH more accurate than the long skinny "VLD" style bullets. Although this paradigm is changing.....bullets are getting better. Chamberings are getting better. GUNS are getting better and shooters are learning how to make the big pills perform better. There may soon be a time when on a windy, blustery day the high BC bullets become the better choice for 200-300. Beyond that, at 600-1000 it's no contest, the roles reverse. Low BC bullets go through the air like a snake at long range. I've watched them. It's startling. Watching a 3500fps bullet travel over 1000yds looks more like bowling or pingpong than shooting LOL!
 
To expand a bit on R.G.'s facts...and they are facts, not theory...he and I both worked with high velocity .30's (3,400 for me and 3,600 for R.G.) as a parallel test for most of one season.

B.C./Time to Target/Wind Drift and all the other blah, blah are less than meaningless if you don't hit the flags perfectly and press the trigger at the correct time.

With relatively equal 'arrows', it's always the best 'Indian'. :cool:
 
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To expand a bit on R.G.'s facts...he and I both worked with high velocity .30's (3,400 for me and 3,600 for R.G.) as a parallel test for most of one season.

B.C./Time to Target/Wind Drift and all the other blah, blah are less than meaningless if you don't hit the flags perfectly and press the trigger at the correct time.

With relatively equal 'arrows', it's always the best 'Indian'. :cool:

That is what I am getting at Al, and You and Randy have already been there, and done that.

If I sit down at the bench, and tune either my 6ppc or my 30BR to a sub .200 aging capabilty, and do the same thing with a high BC set-up, but the best it will Agg is .300, then I think all of the BC in the world will not help at yards 300 and less.

I know quite a few shooters who shoot fast twist high BC 6mm's, and have attempted to shoot them at 200. The majority simply are not accurate enough, (as defined by a Rifle's aging capability), to stand up against the aging capability of a 6PPC or a 30BR shooting standard short range match bullets.

Sure, they occasionally shoot a .250, but after enough groups to determine an Agg, it's just not up to "Point Blank" standards.
But as was said, that might be changing. Improvements in bullets designed to shoot at longer ranges are making great leaps, to where in the not too distant future, a 1-8 twist 6 Dasher shooting 105 grn VLD's with a BC in the 550+ just might prove to be a worthwhile tool at 300 yards.
 
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I shoot 300yd IBS Score three or four times a year, every year. I don't worry much about ballistic coefficients, wind drifts etc.I look at how it shoots on a score target. I don't believe the 30 gives up much at 300 and in Score shooting size of the hole counts a lot, both in points and visibility. I never change to a 6mm. I do sometimes change to a bigger 30, a 30x47L especially when shooting to 400 or longer. Same bullets, same barrels, same powder, just more of it.
Dick
 
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