Dick Grosbier
Club Coordinator
No !
30 BR neck expander
- Thread starter TomD
- Start date
No !
Butch Lambert
Active member
You may have to expand it a tad, but not much. Really helps for straight necks and no donut.
TomD
e publius unum
My rifle is sitting in my smith's shop in Atlanta, where I ain't at the minute. When I get up there in about 10 days I intend to try fire forming some brass. In the mean time, the K&M single step expander that I ordered as a result of the 1st couple of replies to my inquiry came in the mail yesterday and I used it to prep 25 pieces earlier today.
A couple of observations:
Compared to my previous 3 step process, the single step K&M expander is dramatically faster and easier. I was lubricating the devil out of the necks and mandrel and the process seemed to get easier as I expanded more cases. At the end, it was no more trouble than full length sizing some cases and just as fast. I can't tell you what a difference.
The K&M expander is .002 larger (.3085 vs 3065) than the equivalent Sinclair part. Neck turning using the Sinclair expander and Sinclair pilot for their neck turning gear (which I use) is brutal because the expanded brass is a TIGHT fit. The K&M expander combined with the Sinclair pilot is just right.
It leaves a significant donut but what a surprise.
Runout in the expanded cases is significantly less than caused by a multi step expansion process. I've got a Neco concentricity and runout gage. Cases expanded in 3 steps have horrifying levels of runout after expansion but most of my brass expanded by the K&M was around .002. Not sure if this makes any difference since my brass made with the Sinclair process straightened out after firing. But I have to admit that the .015 to .020 of runout was disconcerting.
I'll fire form a batch of brass when I get to Riverbend week after next and will describe how that worked. Maybe a picture of two too.
A couple of observations:
Compared to my previous 3 step process, the single step K&M expander is dramatically faster and easier. I was lubricating the devil out of the necks and mandrel and the process seemed to get easier as I expanded more cases. At the end, it was no more trouble than full length sizing some cases and just as fast. I can't tell you what a difference.
The K&M expander is .002 larger (.3085 vs 3065) than the equivalent Sinclair part. Neck turning using the Sinclair expander and Sinclair pilot for their neck turning gear (which I use) is brutal because the expanded brass is a TIGHT fit. The K&M expander combined with the Sinclair pilot is just right.
It leaves a significant donut but what a surprise.
Runout in the expanded cases is significantly less than caused by a multi step expansion process. I've got a Neco concentricity and runout gage. Cases expanded in 3 steps have horrifying levels of runout after expansion but most of my brass expanded by the K&M was around .002. Not sure if this makes any difference since my brass made with the Sinclair process straightened out after firing. But I have to admit that the .015 to .020 of runout was disconcerting.
I'll fire form a batch of brass when I get to Riverbend week after next and will describe how that worked. Maybe a picture of two too.
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Butch Lambert
Active member
Tom,
I believe that is the reason that some of us do a fireform first. Everything comes out very straight that way.
I believe that is the reason that some of us do a fireform first. Everything comes out very straight that way.
A
abintx
Guest
Dick,
Which powder? How many grains? And ... which size/brand pistol primer?
Would like to give this method a try.
Thanks, Art
Butch Lambert
Active member
On 6ppc and 30BR I use a load of Bullseye to the bottom of the neck and a paraffin plug.
OK, not that anyone else cares about my sentiments but I'm a Safety Geek.
I tried pistol powder with plugs, shotgun powder with plugs, COW, Kapok, cotton balls and batting, toilet paper wadding and some other stuff I've never seen mentioned in print so I won't break precedent....... in all cases I found serious (to me) safety issues.
I'm a K.I.S.S. guy.
By recommending one start with 1/2 case of shotgun powder I feel perfectly safe for these reasons;
-Clays is a fairly fast shotgun powder, a target powder designed for light target loads so it's FAST and therefore SAFE to use as an example because no matter which shotgun powder one has on hand IT WON'T BE NOTICEABLY FASTER THAN CLAYS so you won't get in trouble. If one were to try 1/2 case of SLOWER powder, for instance 800X, one would simply get squib loads with ZERO chance of any sort of safety issue related to over-pressure, detonation or the like.
-The starting load is one 1/2 case so NO CHANCE OF DOUBLE CHARGE. This is huge. A double charge of Bullseye or 2400 under a case full of COW scares the bejeebers out of me.
-The starting load has been used by me personally on cases from 220R to 308 to standard magnum (7mm/300WM/338WM) to the 338 Lapua case and I believe it to be safe.
-There is no wadding to create the problems associated with wadding. Problems I've encountered include inconsistency, fouling, scarey unexplained (by me) pressure excursions........ and the latest one, ironed in fouling up in the crease of the blown out shoulder which caused untold heartache due to it dramatically changing the capacity case-to-case. Other problems I've read of, some listed in other posts.
I'm a tightwad, I don't like burning extra powder "unnecessarily" not to mention that the enormous fuel load heats barrels up quickly but IME this is the most consistent and SAFEST method I've tried.
It could be that Bullseye, as mentioned by others is equally suited to be used without filler but I've only personally used it with a filler. The post about a PPC/BR case full to the neck leads me to believe that it may well work the same way since the paraffin plug is not "filler" IMO but just to keep the powder in, NOT to increase back-pressure. I recommend Clays as having been used by me, safely. And because I buy it in large jugs as opposed to my pistol powders which I normally only stock by the pounds.
opinionsby
al
I tried pistol powder with plugs, shotgun powder with plugs, COW, Kapok, cotton balls and batting, toilet paper wadding and some other stuff I've never seen mentioned in print so I won't break precedent....... in all cases I found serious (to me) safety issues.
I'm a K.I.S.S. guy.
By recommending one start with 1/2 case of shotgun powder I feel perfectly safe for these reasons;
-Clays is a fairly fast shotgun powder, a target powder designed for light target loads so it's FAST and therefore SAFE to use as an example because no matter which shotgun powder one has on hand IT WON'T BE NOTICEABLY FASTER THAN CLAYS so you won't get in trouble. If one were to try 1/2 case of SLOWER powder, for instance 800X, one would simply get squib loads with ZERO chance of any sort of safety issue related to over-pressure, detonation or the like.
-The starting load is one 1/2 case so NO CHANCE OF DOUBLE CHARGE. This is huge. A double charge of Bullseye or 2400 under a case full of COW scares the bejeebers out of me.
-The starting load has been used by me personally on cases from 220R to 308 to standard magnum (7mm/300WM/338WM) to the 338 Lapua case and I believe it to be safe.
-There is no wadding to create the problems associated with wadding. Problems I've encountered include inconsistency, fouling, scarey unexplained (by me) pressure excursions........ and the latest one, ironed in fouling up in the crease of the blown out shoulder which caused untold heartache due to it dramatically changing the capacity case-to-case. Other problems I've read of, some listed in other posts.
I'm a tightwad, I don't like burning extra powder "unnecessarily" not to mention that the enormous fuel load heats barrels up quickly but IME this is the most consistent and SAFEST method I've tried.
It could be that Bullseye, as mentioned by others is equally suited to be used without filler but I've only personally used it with a filler. The post about a PPC/BR case full to the neck leads me to believe that it may well work the same way since the paraffin plug is not "filler" IMO but just to keep the powder in, NOT to increase back-pressure. I recommend Clays as having been used by me, safely. And because I buy it in large jugs as opposed to my pistol powders which I normally only stock by the pounds.
opinionsby
al
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Tom, I've made 30BR cases since 2003 and have tried all the methods of necking up...multi step expanders, tapered one-pass expanders, f-forming with various powders, etc. After tinkering with all of these, I keep coming back to the simple tapered expander 'one pass' method (either Redding or K&M) for several reasons. I do a bit more than expand up, turn and shoot, but your ? was about expanding necks so I'll leave it at that with the addition of these steps that I've back-to-backed tested enough to know they make a difference:
-After necking up, push the shoulder back .015-.020 with a ground down shell holder & bushing in your f.l. die .001 over the dia. of the 'lump' at the new neck/shoulder .
-Turn the 'lump' off first, turning to the 'set back' n/s junction. Then neck turn as normal all the way back to the 'set back' n/s junction
-Anneal before f-forming with a hard jam and lightly oiled cases.
Enjoy! -Al
-After necking up, push the shoulder back .015-.020 with a ground down shell holder & bushing in your f.l. die .001 over the dia. of the 'lump' at the new neck/shoulder .
-Turn the 'lump' off first, turning to the 'set back' n/s junction. Then neck turn as normal all the way back to the 'set back' n/s junction
-Anneal before f-forming with a hard jam and lightly oiled cases.
Enjoy! -Al
Wayne Shaw
Active member
While I agree that fireforming in a chamber does indeed make nice case, the doughnut is inside the case, not outside, for a 30BR. Expanding first will get this bulge on the outside, and an initial pass turning the necks should get rid of this bulge, then do as you wish.
A
abintx
Guest
Both methods sound like six of one or a half dozen of the other.
If you decide to use the fire-forming method that places the doughnut on the inside of the case, prior to turning, this K&M tool will remove it easily, while the turning is taking place: http://www.kmshooting.com/catalog/neck-turner-tools/carbide-cutting-pilot.html Click on the picture to get an expanded view.
If you decide to use the fire-forming method that places the doughnut on the inside of the case, prior to turning, this K&M tool will remove it easily, while the turning is taking place: http://www.kmshooting.com/catalog/neck-turner-tools/carbide-cutting-pilot.html Click on the picture to get an expanded view.
TomD
e publius unum
I used to use 12 grains Unique topped with cotton wadding for forming a 7 X 30 Waters from a 30-30. In addition to creating the case, it was a fun and very impressive blank when fired through a 14" TCC barrel. That was probably around 1/2 case. Probably could have used a grain or two more since the case shoulder wasn't perfectly crisp until after the 1st firing with a bullet but that was OK. All we really need to do with the 30 BR is to expand the neck, the body is already where we need it.
Can't see where it would hurt to start at a light load and work up. That's what I intend to do when I fire form some 30 BR cases. I do intend to use some wadding to generate some pressure, if nothing else to keep from having the carbon fouling problem mentioned above.
Can't see where it would hurt to start at a light load and work up. That's what I intend to do when I fire form some 30 BR cases. I do intend to use some wadding to generate some pressure, if nothing else to keep from having the carbon fouling problem mentioned above.
I just got through forming 100 cases by the corn meal method (see reply #10). I set up 2 measures - one for 8.5 gr universal clays (similar to Unique) - the other for the corn meal dumped through a funnel, & plugged the neck with a wad of Kleenex. Worked great, didn't loose a single case, & the cases turned out longer than if they were expanded with a tool. They still need to be run over the expander before trimming to length & neck turning.
Regards, Ron
Regards, Ron
Dick Grosbier
Club Coordinator
Dick,
Rather than using a 1/2 case full of powder, the charge is just 8.5 gr and you may be able to cut that back a couple of grains. The meal is there to hold the powder back and provide the pressure to blow out the necks.
Whether the corn meal just reduces the volume, or some of it burns, I can't say. Unlike the powder, cornmeal has no oxygen source so all of it couldn't possibly burn. However, the barrel is clean afterward with no cornmeal left. These "blanks" give a nice report, and they really peel back the weeds & grass at ~5 ft. I did manage to shoot a bumble bee at 3 ft with one load.
I've been told that during the depression, the old timers would load their shotshells with a 1/2 charge of powder and use cornmeal for the other 1/2. They claimed the cornmeal actually burned and replaced the 1/2 of the powder that wasn't there! At least it worked well enough to get a rabbit for the pot.
I haven't tried that myself - your mileage may vary!
Regards, Ron
Rather than using a 1/2 case full of powder, the charge is just 8.5 gr and you may be able to cut that back a couple of grains. The meal is there to hold the powder back and provide the pressure to blow out the necks.
Whether the corn meal just reduces the volume, or some of it burns, I can't say. Unlike the powder, cornmeal has no oxygen source so all of it couldn't possibly burn. However, the barrel is clean afterward with no cornmeal left. These "blanks" give a nice report, and they really peel back the weeds & grass at ~5 ft. I did manage to shoot a bumble bee at 3 ft with one load.
I've been told that during the depression, the old timers would load their shotshells with a 1/2 charge of powder and use cornmeal for the other 1/2. They claimed the cornmeal actually burned and replaced the 1/2 of the powder that wasn't there! At least it worked well enough to get a rabbit for the pot.
I haven't tried that myself - your mileage may vary!
Regards, Ron
Andy Cross
New member
Question
With all the barrels I have had in 6PPC running with a .262 neck I haven't been able to chamber a cartridge that wasn't neck turned first. Neither the sako or lapua brass. So what diameter neck do you have to run if you are to chamber a un-turned neck before fire forming.
Andy.
With all the barrels I have had in 6PPC running with a .262 neck I haven't been able to chamber a cartridge that wasn't neck turned first. Neither the sako or lapua brass. So what diameter neck do you have to run if you are to chamber a un-turned neck before fire forming.
Andy.
Hi
Can anyone thats fireforming a 30BR using the C of W method for a 1.510" chamber Please let me know there method and findings.
I gave it a go and found that my casses curve up at the front end of the NK,so i trimed back to 1.500" and the curve went away, but when i measured them i found that they flow unevenly forward and they come out with a thin side that would not clean up with NK turning about .005/6.
Remy
Can anyone thats fireforming a 30BR using the C of W method for a 1.510" chamber Please let me know there method and findings.
I gave it a go and found that my casses curve up at the front end of the NK,so i trimed back to 1.500" and the curve went away, but when i measured them i found that they flow unevenly forward and they come out with a thin side that would not clean up with NK turning about .005/6.
Remy
None, load a straight unprepped 220 case up with your forming powder and whatever you want to use to hold it down, COW, cotton ball, foam, paper, and fire it in the gun. A 220 Lapua straight out of the box is around .250 and should have no problem fitting into a a .262 neck
Once fired, then use your expander and turn, one of the nicest things I have found with this method is that it gives you a proper shoulder to turn to.
Andy Cross
New member
Too late
Obviously yes an unexpanded 220 case would fit a 262 neck. It's too late for that now as they have been expanded. But some people have told me that even expanded up without a projectile seated in them they will still fit in the chamber. Those people must be running awfully sloppy chambers.
Andy.
Obviously yes an unexpanded 220 case would fit a 262 neck. It's too late for that now as they have been expanded. But some people have told me that even expanded up without a projectile seated in them they will still fit in the chamber. Those people must be running awfully sloppy chambers.
Andy.
I'm thinking the concept math may escape those folks or they are chambering those rounds in a shotgun.