25 yard group size.

Here's the best group I ever mustered with my original Suhl barrel shooting Eley Biathlon EPS at 25yds outdoors. Jim Finn measured it at .021ctc. He told me at the time it was the smallest 5 shot group at 25yds he has ever measured.

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Here's one more right down the middle of the 10 ring. That's 5 straight 10X's on the USBR target. :D

23790Suhl_150_5_Shot_25Yds_006_Custom_.jpg
 
Great Pictures

Here's my opinion for what it's worth.
When it comes down to shooting matches whethter it's for score or for group I really don't think it makes a hoot worth of difference whethter your gun averages 0.200 or 0.250 or maybe even 0.300 for 5 shots. Now certainly a guy that has a rifle that averages 0.200 has a little edge on the guy that averages 0.300 but this difference seldom wins the match.

Nothing and I mean nothing is going to replace the ability to correctly read the flags and judge the wind. As simple as that sounds, wind reading ability is paramount in a shooters success at the range. Practice in the wind, Let me say again, Practice in the wind and your scores will improve at the match.

Disclaimer: Actual mileage may vary but the scores tell the tale
 
WAIT A MINUTE..... I MUST HAVE JUST RODE IN ON THE TURNIP WAGON...

I measured some of my Fiocchi, Eley and Lapua bullets and they miked .224. I miked my "Offical" BR-50 scoring plug made by Bill Calfee for BR-50 and it miked .224 and I just tore up one of my RIG .22 cal scoring plugs and it miked .224. And now I read that a .224 diameter bullet will not make a .224 hole in paper, only a .204 hole..
Now, if that is the case, why in hell, if anyone can explain it to this totally ignorant shooter, do we use .224 scoring plugs to measure our targets for determing close scoring shots, if our bullets are only making .204 holes in the paper :confused:
And why would we subtract .204 from your groups, if the bullet diameter is .224.?? Maybe we are shooting these match .22's so fast that the bullet is actually melting in flight... OR, maybe the old thing about shoving a tomato in a catsup bottle has some credibility.. Give me a break..

If I shoot .224 diameter bullets in my rifle, for groups or score, I'm subtracting .224 from the edge-to-edge measurement of the farthest bullet holes. You measure yours anyway you want to..

Dave..
 
Dave,

You make a good point. But like I said, go shoot enough shots on any paper and measure to your hearts content and break out a flashlight or magnifying glass or a light with a magnifier on it so there is no mistake on the measuring, and you will see very quickly that a 22 rimfire bullet will not print a avg .224 hole. It's not nowhere near .224 but closer to the .204 like I said. I have seen some of your groups that you have posted, and I can tell you that your off in your measurement by subtracting the .224 for bullet diameter. I'm not saying that to make you mad either, but I have had others tell me that your groups need to be remeasured for true ctc accuracy. I agree with them. ;) And that's taking in the fact that even if your subtracting .224 for bullet diameter, your still off by quite a bit in your measuring for true ctc group size. I never said nothing to you for I did not want to hurt your feelings, but since you made your point here to doubt what I said with your arrogant, charisma like charm, it's high time I speak up and be blunt to the point of how I feel. For someone who can't seem to measure groups no better than you do, how on earth would you be expected to measure a bullet hole with any authenticity to say you got a true .224?

Brad
 
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Here's an example to what I mean from some of your groups.

7124Suhl_1_2_Groups.jpg


Your 2 bullet holes wide in the 1st, 2nd and 5th group, but yet you have them marked as .138, .106, and .141. :confused:

Your .148ctc on your 3rd group is the worst of the bunch for true reality ctc group size. That's a very sorry .148 group in my honest opinion. I wouldn't even want to post that if it were me. Talk about group shrinkage, now I know where the term came from.

Send them groups to someone who knows how to measure. :eek:

Here's a couple .140ctc groups(2nd and 3rd below) so you can see what a .140ctc group looks like. Yep, you guessed it, I subtracted .204 for bullet diameter. Compare my 1st group(.107ctc) to your .106 group. Notice, too I have a dime next to my groups so you can get a comparison feel.

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One more thing since I got it on the tip of my tongue. The groups that I have sent Mr. Haller or Jim Finn over the years regardless whether it has been a 17HMR or 22 rimfire; the groups that both have measured for me with the Niel Jones group measuring tool, I have learned to be almost deadnut in measuring my group with what they get for true ctc group size from this tool will be pretty much exact when I deduct exactly .020 smaller than the actual true bullet diameter from the farthest outside edge to edge meaurement(black smear to black smear). Now if you doubt me, talk to them or anyone else who knows the truth about true ctc group size in measuring groups the way they should be measured, and not by what makes our groups or egos better by making the numbers smaller than what they really are.
 
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Brad

you are correct, good post. There are a lot of folks out there that are only fooling themselves when they measure there groups. You just can't go wrong using a measuring device and using it the way it was designed to be used correctly.
 
wish i could shoot 25 yds indoors

nice looking TEN shot groups derek. full moon eclipse,
satellites a fallin', 5 degree weather here, and cabin
fever runnin' rampant, argh. wish i could shoot 25 yds
indoors. lighten' up guys springs a comin', are the target
boards ready at your range yet? derek good luck shooting
at 50 in the wind, it's a different world out there.
 
thanks tom. i can't wait for spring to get here so i can take the rifle and the test lots of ammo it likes for testing at 50 in the wind. i think most people on here have foregotten we all had to start out someplace and then work our way up. i've shot small local matches and did well. now i'm going to try some bigger ones this year with the suhl. i know everything is perfect when shooting indoors and there is no wind. i believe the guys on here would crap thier pants if i posted my 20,25, and 50 shot groups:D!! the ones were it is just one hole that has 20,25 and 50 bullets in it. i have a friend who is telling me how he tests lots and he is one hell of a shooter. i've seen people post about how they have seen him use cheap ammo and shoot incredable groups in the .0's and the .1's. and punching groups in the .2's at 100 yards with his rifle. anything my friend tells me i listen to. he's told me nothing wrong yet. and tom i enjoy talking to you on the phone as well. all the people i have talked to on the phone from this sight have really been great people. they have given me great and helpful information and i want to thank each and everyone who have taken the time to help a new guy into this new world of shooting. if i make it to any matches that i can meet people who have helped me i'll thank you in person and shake your hand. you have all been really nice and helpful to me.
 
I want to crap my pants

Okay Derek, post some of these fantastic targets. I need a change of underware. What you need, is a series of groups that that are continuous, not selected just because they were the smallest. Indoor, is not the snap you claim, and although .20 is an excellent outdoor 100 yard group, is it just one, or five in row.
 
Thanks Steve. Sorry I had to say what I said, but I'll be damned if I will let someone ridicule me when I know for a fact though experience I am right on the money.

Jim Finn and Joe Haller both know how to measure a group. They usually are deadnut with the tool they use.
 
when i test the lots i use i will shoot one 5 shot group. if it measures more than .28 i set it aside. now if it measures under .28 i shoot a 20 shot group. if it measures under that i shoot a 25 shot group. each group must measure under .28 outside edge to outside edge. the targets i post are from the lots i will use. so most of my targets have 3 groups on them. if i get more than 2 fliers then i set the test lots off to allow my girlfriend to shoot in her gun. i'm used to shooting centerfire at long range. this rimfire is alot harder but inside with perfect conditions it is a snap as somebody called it. the thing most people don't understand about me is i started shooting when i was 5. i've never owned a bb gun. by the time i was 11 i was helping my father reload bullets. i have shot alomst everyday since i was 13 and rimfire wasn't what i was using. i started playing with rimfires at our game club a few years back as away to get more trigger time. it is fun for me and i enjoy it. i'm not out to set world records. i'm out to enjoy myself. i've noticed on this sight most of the posters are gunsmith's and some are shooters. i've also noticed everybody is hard core to kick a guy about anything they can. there have been a few very nice and helpful people call me and to them thank you. the rest of you have done nothing on most of the posts i look through but tell people how you learn nothing doing this or that and thats wrong you need to do this. the things that work for me may not work for anybody else. the things that work you each of you may not work for anybody else. we are all different. like i said i'm not out to shoot world records, i'm out to have fun. i don't aim to talk down to anybody and if i can help somebody i surely will. but all the bashing and trying to make yourselves sound better than anybody else is not helping anybody new into this sport at all. i'm sure if somebody who wanted to get into the sport looked at alot of the posts on here and read what alot of people write they would say there are alot of people who think they are better than everybody else. when i shoot i am out to shoot the best i can. i'm no rookie to shooting at all. for some reason people seem to think you are if you haven't been shooting rimfires all your life. i've been shooting cenerfires most of my life. they don't try to talk you down. maybe i'll just go back to shooting centerfires and move up to bigger centerfire matches and leave this to you people.
 
Most everyone means well. The problem is that no one knows the real answers and when someone gives a difinitive answer to someone that is new here, others that know that to not be the case chime in to keep the new guy from going off in the wrong direction. A lot of the conflict comes from the fact that some of the best smiths, the guys that make the killer guns, may not really know why they are killer guns. They may do twenty things to make a gun great and only ten of them have anything to do with making them good. The other things may just be voodoo but because they are the experts, someone is bound to believe them.
 
dereck,
You'll do well with rimfire BR shooting, just get on out there and compete when the season starts. As Don said, most folks mean well and most will help if they're asked in the right way. You seem to be excited by the rimfires, so keep that fire burning, that makes it all worth while. I still remember the time a few years back when I just couldn't wait for match day to see if I could improve my scores from the last match. Enthusiam for the sport is essential, and I think you have that already. Good luck with your shooting, and stay with it.
 
Most guys that shoot BR don't post groups at all because they know they don't mean much of anything. Do it for score and do it shoulder to shoulder to mean anything.
 
Its outide to outside less the bullet .204.243.308

nobody measures center to center in group benchrest matches, maybe in your back yard, but not at the supershoot, or any other offical match. and wether you shoot at 10 feet from the target of 1000 yards its still the same. outside to outside less the bullet"""""""""
 
gee

so i guess from now on we'll show the whole target
with all the groups good and bad if we're going to post
them instead of a few great ones like everyone keeps
on scraps of targets.
 
you asked for it. like i said, i shoot 5, then 20, then 25. if a group is over .28 edge to edge i throw that lot out and move to the next. in three groups a box of 50 is gone. heres the targets.
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3eleytestlots002.jpg
3eleytestlots001.jpg
these were shot last night in lot testing.
 
heres more. from a week ago.
entiretarget001.jpg
not all the lots on this target passed the test. i am very picky about what ammo i will keep to try. i'm just out to do the best i can do. some ammo won't cut it for me. and i am very demanding on myself and the gun.
 
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