22 Hornet Std Deviation

J

Joe Entrekin

New member
Has anybody here chronographed their Hornet loads? I'm trying to work up loads & shot several different bullets with 13.0 grs. of Lil'Gun over the chronograph yesterday. Some grouped well, but all had SD's from 30 - 40 fps, which seems pretty high to me. Primer was old WSR or Fed 205M, my friend that supplied the brass couldn't remember. From what I've read, primers have a big impact on the Hornet, so maybe this wasn't the best primer choice. My next session will be the same load with the best performing bullet (Sierra 39 BK) & different primers. Anybody have any light to shed on this topic?
 
I have measured high SD in a K-Hornet using Lil' Gun powder. However, velocities were very high - this all was with Rem, Fed, and CCI primers. When I used Win PISTOL primers, the high SD went away (pretty much) as did the high velocities. Your 30 fps SD seems pretty small for Lil' Gun and the Hornet. I measured SDs much higher. Complete data was published in Small Caliber News back in '90 or thereabouts.

Harold
 
SJ I was shooting the Remington 61/2s in my .223's and other SR cases found out they're made especially for the 22 Hornet a lower pressure round must have lower brisance and thinner cups. The Winchesters have higher brisance and are more like a magnum primer Hotter than most other powders because Winchester ball powders burn cooler at lower psi than most other powders.

The Lil Gun is very tempermental large std deviations in all cartridges I've developed reduced loads with it for the .223-.308 Winchester cartridges it is very temperature sensitive and position sensitive in the case. Originally designed for shotguns. Caveat you should see around 2900fps with 13gr in the 22 Hornet. It provides velocity. 23.7 Grains of it in a 6.8SPC topped with a Speer 90gr TNT Clocks 2900fps and Groups exceptionally well.


Another good powder for the 22 Hornet is H4227 more stable nice groups although the velocity isn't as fast.
 
To Joe Entrekin

Your standard deviation is not outrageous for a Hornet. My load of 11g of W296 with a 40g pill and CCI 500 small pistol primers gives a SD of 27fps. According to the Lyman handbook a powder weight difference of 1/10th of a grain will change bullet speed by 18fps so it pays to be precise. I have a bunch of Hornet information that I was about to put into a new thread when I spotted your thread on SD, so have a look at my thread called "Fussy Hornets.":D
 
I recently came across some Rem 6 1/2 primers, so they will be part of my next session with the chronograph. I will also shoot a string with CCI Small Pistol. The comments about Lil'Gun being inconsistent in reduced loads makes me wonder if it performs best with 100% load density, similar to a shotshell. The 13 grain load is essentially a case full, so loaded it should be slightly compressed. I'll let you know my results.
Talking primers for the Hornet, I wonder if regular Wolf Small Rifle would be a good replacement for the Rem 6 1/2? They are reported to be mild & have a softer cup. Anyone tried them?
 
I've been happy with WW 680 or AA1680 and the Rem 6 1/2 primer behind 45 gr bullets of several flavors. RWS brass made a big improvement for me compared to domestic brass.

Greg
 
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Greg, can you tell me where to get the RWS brass? I got some with a K-Hornet a couple years ago & it is nice brass, but with a little thinner neck.
 
Joe,

I don't know where to send you for RWS Hornet brass but I would start at Huntington's. My brass came with an Annie rifle about thirty years ago and it left with a Contender a few years later. At the time it gave much better results than the Rem brass I also had. Since then I've used Winchester brass with another Annie. Gunaccessories.com lists everything on the planet but whether or not they can deliver is another issue. If they have it they will price it at full retail.

Let me know if you find it. I want some also.

Greg
 
Talked to Huntington's this PM. They don't have any, and won't be getting any. RWS was bought by a Swiss company that is afraid of getting sued in the USA (imagine that), so they are not exporting anymore.:(
 
Bummer.

Thanks for the update though, Joe. I checked with the other source and that was a dead end as well.

Greg
 
Was back at the range yesterday AM with the Hornet & chronograph. BTW, my rifle is an Anschutz 1730D HB Classic. When I loaded this time I weighed every charge to make sure I had no variations there, and used the Sierra 40 BK, so the only controllable variable was the primers. Shot 10-shot strings with Rem 6 1/2, Fed 205GM, WSR, and CCI 500 Sm Pistol. These are the results, go scratch your head:
1) Rem 6 1/2 - avg velocity = 2815, SD = 28
2) Fed 205GM - avg velocity = 2766, SD = 27
3) WSR - avg velocity = 2720, SD = 28
4) CCI 500 Sm Pistol - avg velocity = 2805, SD = 31

I was particularly surprised by that last one. Also surprising was that the CCI 500 string produced the smallest group. I'm shooting at only 50 yds because I'm doing some RF ammo testing at the same time, but still the CCI 500 primed ammo gave me a 10-shot group that could almost be covered with your small fingernail ( a truly scientific measurement, right?:D). One thing is for sure at this point, this rifle absolutely loves the 40 Sierra BK.

Next session I will try the Rem 6 1/2 , CCI 500, and Win Sm Pistol.
 
Very interesting results. Espescially the pistol primers. That is a reason I don't use a chronograph to develop loads. The group size is what counts. The Std Dev affects long range loads but 100-300yds not so much.

The pistol primers have a lower brisance. The shattering ability of a primer supposedly effects bullet movement and deformation less before powder ignition less violently.

If all brands of primers are ever available I shall retest my favorite vs others because they all supposedly have been reformulated to be more sensitive etc.

The Winchester results surprised me. Thought velocity would be much higher.

Out of the F205m, The WSR, And the Rem 6 1/2 Which of these grouped the best and what was the group size for comparison to the CCI 500s?

Read Several Precision Shooting and other tests on primers but again the primer composition has changed.

First I find the right bullet for the barrel. Then I find a good powder charge and see which primer shoots best, then with that primer I develop the right powder charge. Lastly I tweak the crimp and seating depth of the load.

Look forward to your results.
 
When using Lilgun and 40gr bullets, I also had very high SD's. The heavier the bullet, the lower the SD, was my finding.

My accuracy load is 11.7gr Lilgun under a 52gr Sierra HPBTM at 2650fps. This load shoots great, and it's the load I use when my kids want to perforate pennies at 100yds.

With the Hornet, small changes at the reloading bench can lead to huge changes at the range.

If you own a Hornet, you owe it to the rifle to try Lilgun and small pistol primers.

In theory, the more aggressive ignition from a small rifle primer pushes the bullet forward before the gasses do, kind of a start-stop-start thing, causing inconsistent ignition and accuracy.
 
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To Joe Entrekin

Have ben following your results with intrest and will be interested to find out what sort of grouping you get at 100yds, thumb nail sounds like a definate possibility. 35g Hornady might be worth a try as I know my hornet likes them a lot. As for standard deviation I think that what the harmonics are doing at the instant the bullet leaves the muzzle is more important and this can be controlled by seating depth changes.:D
 
22 K-Hornet tests

I failed miserably in trying to attach a spread sheet containing my tests where SD was measured for various primer, powder and bullet combinations. I tested Rem, CCI and Fed rifle primers, Rem, Win and Fed pistol primers with AA1680, IMR4227 and Lil' Gun powders. I used 40 V-Max and Calhoun 37, Starke 52 ... for SD. I also have limited tests with the 35 V-Max and the light Starke bullet. Here's a summary:
The combination of all but Win SP primers and Lil'Gun produced large SD, but with reasonable groups at 100 yards, and significant vertical spread at 300.
The 40 V-Max is a wonderfully accurate bullet (14" twist). The average 5-shot group with all combinations of powder and primer in an 8-pound rifle with scope is around 3/4" much to my surprise. The Calhoun shot as well.
Limited tests with the 52 Starke showed good results. In limited tests with the 35 V-Max - not so much.
 
Last Saturday, my CZ 527 in .22 Hornet, shooting 35gr V-max over 13.0gr of Lil Gun, using small pistol primers, shot an SD of 11.2 fps for five shots. Average fps was 2856. Did it twice (second time was 11.3, 2859). Accuracy is exceptional, at least for my old eyes. I think I've found my load.

PS Same load in my buddy's Ruger 77/22 gave an SD of 50.9, with an average of 2770.
 
I checked my records - I have not tried the F100 with Lil' Gun. Apparently it's worth a try. I used F100s with AA1680 and 40 V-Max on my last PD shoot. I stopped using Lil' Gun before I started to use F100s

Harold
 
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