1 in 15 twist for a 6PPC

Al,
Interesting..but you might consider using the actual lengths of bullets made on the various jacket lengths, since they end up quite a bit longer.

Boyd, I thought about doing that...but decided to stick with the 'raw' jacket lengths so as not to add to any confusion. Plus, the actual pointed-up lengths differ depending on the tangent number of the ogive, how much the jackets shorten during core seating, core makeup etc, etc.

The extra 'as spun' length will erode the stability numbers just a skosh.

Berger f.b. 68's (on the .825 jacket) average .835 long.

Berger f.b. 62's (.750 jacket) average .771 long.

Berger f.b. 52's (.22 cal.) on the .705 jacket avg. .720 long.

Here's a couple of others that people may find interesting:

BIB .30 cal 118 gr. 7 ogive on the 1.00" jacket avg. .984 long.

Nyhus .30 cal. 117 8 ogive on the 1.00" jacket avg. .970 long.

There's no doubt that somewhere North of 1.5, the on-target precision erodes due to over spinning. And South of 1.5, there's an area where the precision erodes and the bullets become more wind/tune sensitive. This occurs before the bullets exhibit the classic signs of on-target instability.

Now, where those areas are aren't exactly written in stone. Combinations that pencil out (okay..calculate out ;)) show instability. And others that shouldn't work... hold together and win.
 
Not directly on topic -- the efficacy of a 15-twist barrel -- but there is a trend in the long-range game to move to to a Sg of 1.4. I get that impression from German Salazar's blog, Brian Litz writings, and some of Henry Child's calculations. The reason this isn't quite on topic is that the poor effects of Sg below 1.4 don't seen to show up very much at short range.

It is also hard to know the actual gyroscopic stability of a particular bullet. I have successfully used -- at long range -- a bullet/twist that calculates Sg of 1.3. This the 187 BIB in a 13.5 twist. Dave Tooley used the same bullet in a 1:14 twist barrel. The 14-twist barrel Dave used was so close to the edge that 200 SMKs gave pie-plate sized groups at 200 yards.

The point is, while empirical evidence counts, it isn't simple. Some barrels seem to work when they shouldn't. Some don't.

To the original poster, I think we could conclude that you will be right on the edge with a 15-twist barrel for the usual 6 PPC bullets. It might work. It might not. It will not turn you into Tony Boyer. (I realize that wasn't your goal.)

A more interesting question probably is "what do you lose, practically speaking, with a 12-twist barrel using 6mm bullets and the .825 jackets?" That is, a Sg of 1.4? It has been revealed truth for so long that this hurts accuracy, it might be worthwhile to revisit it.
 
Here 'ya go, Charles:

Caliber: 0.243 in Bullet Weight: 68.0 gr
Bullet Length: 0.825 in
Muzzle Velocity: 3400.0 ft/s Barrel Twist: 12.0 in
Temperature: 80.0 °F Pressure: 29.92 in Hg
Stability: 1.522

And here it is with the 'pointed up' length:

Caliber: 0.243 in Bullet Weight: 68.0 gr
Bullet Length: 0.835 in
Muzzle Velocity: 3400.0 ft/s Barrel Twist: 12.0 in
Temperature: 80.0 °F Pressure: 29.92 in Hg
Output Data
Stability: 1.471
 
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Given the 30 BR we are shooting pretty good stability and the 6ppc is only
Marginal, according to the numbers, Thats interesting
 
Thanks for the numbers, Al. I kinda knew them. Where I was trying to go was, we know that with any CG offset in a bullet, the faster you spin it, the greater the dispersion. Well, the old 14-twist barrel was set a long time ago. Jackets were worse, at least in terms of runout. Maybe it is time to re examine our compromises, esp. given (as you mentioned) the double-radius, high-ogive, and sometimes boat-tail bullets we're using.

And as Bob said. the .30s are working just fine. No excessive dispersion.
 
There are lots of good 30 barrels being used. A good 6 barrel is not that common.
But you know, the steel used in both is coming from the same place.
 
Thanks for the numbers, Al. I kinda knew them. Where I was trying to go was, we know that with any CG offset in a bullet, the faster you spin it, the greater the dispersion. Well, the old 14-twist barrel was set a long time ago. Jackets were worse, at least in terms of runout. Maybe it is time to re examine our compromises, esp. given (as you mentioned) the double-radius, high-ogive, and sometimes boat-tail bullets we're using.

And as Bob said. the .30s are working just fine. No excessive dispersion.

BUT, way back then, the jackets were shorter!:eek: In a brief, article, by Mike Walker, published [Precision Shooting] about 1986-87, when J4 opted to produce the 6mm, 0.825" jacket, and Berger Bullets decided to use this length for the 68 Gr. weight, MR Walker pointed out that, via 1:14" twist barrels, the .825" jacket would provide only marginal stability!;) BUT, what did HE know!:rolleyes: So, for nearly a quarter century, the PPC (6mm) has been handicapped by marginal twist rate/stability barrels. When we began searching for answers for our thirty caliber competition rifles, our original intent was to duplicate the 6mm model - the MATH warned against that!:eek: So, we opted to twist rates, which, for the bullets in question, provided calculated Sg 1.4, or greater (at that time, we were talking improving our HUNTER Rifle performance). It still looks pretty simple . . . and the HIGH percentage of 'good' thirty caliber barrels, vs. the relatively low %age of 6mm barrels, tends to point in a useful direction . . . Oh, as I recall, Mr. Walker stated that the jacket (6mm/68 Gr.) should not exceed 0.80" in length - perhaps someone can track down that brief piece. Yes, there was some method to our madness - that even MOST of the barrel makers couldn't/wouldn't understand . . . but some of them 'get it' now!:cool: One reason the [so called] 'slow twist' thirty caliber barrels work so consistently well: the twist rates are 'JUST RIGHT'!;) Keep 'en ON the X! RG
 
BUT, way back then, the jackets were shorter!:eek: In a brief, article, by Mike Walker, published [Precision Shooting] about 1986-87, when J4 opted to produce the 6mm, 0.825" jacket, and Berger Bullets decided to use this length for the 68 Gr. weight, MR Walker pointed out that, via 1:14" twist barrels, the .825" jacket would provide only marginal stability!;) BUT, what did HE know!:rolleyes: ! RG
Randy, do you mean that some of the very top 100/200 shooters, like Lester Bruno, now use 13.5 twist know something??

And wasn't a popular 6mm bullet jacket at the time a Sierra 0.810" jacket?
 
According to calculations done by Al Nyus, an .825 jacket is still only marginal in
a 13 twist. Berger even recommends a 13 twist for those bullets. So why do they
work so well in some 14's.
What would the jacket length have been in Remingtons 68gr BR bullets. ?
Given a marginal stability factor, does accuracy fade long before they start tipping.?
 
Randy, do you mean that some of the very top 100/200 shooters, like Lester Bruno, now use 13.5 twist know something??

And wasn't a popular 6mm bullet jacket at the time a Sierra 0.810" jacket?

1) Yes, it's an inkling . . . a half-step toward understanding. ;)
2) Possibly/probably - my memory isn't perfect . . . but, in a world where we 'worry' over 1/10,000ths of inches, where the difference can't be precisely measured, how can .015" be so readily dismissed as irrelevant: regarding Sg, it's worth a full 1/2" of twist requirement . . . and the addition of a BT is fully another 1/2"!:eek: No wonder, "'the wind is my friend" . . . RG
 
I tried to log on to Bryan Litz website, but the link is down. Below a quote from German Salazar's blog, which, I think paraphrases Litz:

If a bullet's Sg is between 1.0 and 1.4, the bullet should be stable enough not to tumble, but it won't necessarily settle into a stable flight. This marginal level of gyroscopic stability means that the initial pitch and yaw motion that every bullet has won't damp out; consequently, the bullet will have a lower effective BC because of the higher drag induced by the pitching and yawing motions and accuracy will be compromised. These problems will increase as the bullet travels downrange, so unlike the bullet with adequate gyroscopic stability (Sg at least 1.4) which gets more stable, the marginally stabilized bullet will become less stable as it travels downrange.

OK, downrange performance of a bullet isn't too important in PB benchrest. Historically, 14-twist barrels performed very well. What, if anything, has changed? Lets' play the "what if" game:

1. Maybe the yardstick has changed. Aggs are getting better. What use to be "very good" is now only "acceptable."

2. Bullets have changed. Randy says the extra length is worth .5 increase in twist, and a boattail another .5.

[random graspings: Somebody mentioned the effect of a "dual radius bearing surface," and Vaughn addressed that in his book, though not as a factor in twist rate, rather in affecting in-bore yaw. From a simple-minded point of view, a dual-radius shank itself should not affect Sg -- the form of the bullet remains the same. But the observed effect -- greater in-bore yaw -- increases the tip-off rate, and that marginally affects pitch & yaw -- "lowers ballistic coefficient." Does that mean a slight reduction in Sg?]

It gets very hard to predict what will happen in any marginal situation when you tip the scales just a little bit more.

[left field thought: Point-blank benchrest has also taken jamming the bullet as a revealed truth. All of a sudden, a few people are jumping certain bullets. I can think of several theoretical pluses and minuses to either jam or jump. For example: if you're running a tight neck AND you're loading concentric ammunition, the self-centering advantage of jamming a bullet is less important. If the powder you use doesn't "prefer" high neck tension, the effect of jamming a bullet (equivalent to more neck tension) is less a factor. Etc.]

Well, it is winter on BR Central. All the above is tinkering with "what ifs" using the theoretical model. Let's get practical. I'll buy a 12-twist barrel. But I don't shoot PB benchrest well enough, often enough, to get reliable test results. What we need is a National-level shooter. One who is having enough issues with his/her equipment to be willing to try something new.

Conclusion:

Jackie, I'll pay for a 12-twist 6mm barrel blank if you'll chamber it and test it out. Somebody else willing to contribute towards other supplies he'd need?

Edit:

I realize full well that one barrel proves little. From one point of view, "it's just as good" would be very encouraging news. The only thing in it for Jackie is it might be a very good barrel . . . and that's not much. But he's proven over and over what an asset he is to our sport, so maybe we can go to the well another time.
 
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Charles,
Some time ago, I got what a NOS Hart barrel that was nominally a 13 twist. Later, I measured it (twice, tight patch) at more like 12 3/4. Originally, I had been frustrated trying to get it to shoot, until Walt Berger told me that back when those barrels were common in competition, he and Dennis Thornbury had done testing that showed (counterintuitively) that a short light bullet, driven hard, worked best. I borrowed some 62 grain Watsons from a friend, and he was right. Later, when my tuning skills had improved, I was able to get a longer bullet to shoot, but at the local altitude and temperatures I have seen no advantage from the tighter twist, at least with flat base bullets, into the rifling, and 133. With the same conditions, a first batch ratchet, that I still shoot, seems to be slightly better. It is a 14 twist. I have been using double radius ogive bullets for some time. The bullet that produced my initial frustration with the Hart was not.
Boyd
 
Boyd,

Good information. I'd offer a thought. When we get into a marginal situation and are dealing with small numbers, the host of variables makes any kind of straightforward testing a daunting prospect. Unlike Aberdeen, we lack the resources to do definitive work, or even an ordering of all the variables. Just as most of us would say to the original poster "a 15 twist barrel isn't going to (generally) improve performance," we also cannot say "a 12-twist barrel will (generally) solve problems."

So the question comes up, with your 14-twist barrel that prefers the longer bullet: would it do better yet with a different shorter bullet? We'll never know. Or, if you tuning skills were less, would it be easier to keep an Sg 1.4 system in tune?
Etc.

Early on in my 1,000 yard career, Dave Tooley sort of (figuratively) sat me down and said "it's all about making compromises." That has remained good advice.

There is even a compromise on how to make compromises. Suppose, for example, that when the gods smile, a 14-twist barrel shooting bullets on .825 jackets performs best, but the gods smile less often on that combination? Actually, that's what the model predicts. What should the individual shooter then decide? Suppose s/he's not a National-class shooter. Different compromises?

Anyway, my offer to Jackie -- or any other National class shooter remains open. If they're willing to spend their time and skill, I'd certainly be willing to contribute a barrel. Most of the shooters I know at that are at that level are in the SouthEastern region, and most of them don't read/post to the BR Central forums -- Larry Costa a bit, Bart Sauter a bit -- but not often. I'm sure there are others, I've probably been shooting 1,000 yards too long. If Jackie's willing, I think most of us would be interested in the results, even knowing in advance that we won't get definitive answers.
 
Charles and Boyd...... I have tried 13.2 to 15 twist barrels of several makes (Shilen, Rock Creek, Hart, Krieger, Turbo, and Bartlein. All have been chambered for the 6PPC. I prefer cut rifled barrels, so I have more experience with the Bartlein and Krieger brands. I use bullets from Bart (.790 BT double ogive), Bishop (.790 FB double ogive), Hottenstein (.825 BT standard ogive),and Milton BT double ogive .790 & .825 BT). With extensive testing with these bullets in 13.5 and 14 twist, I would have to give the edge to the 14 twist. I know that my results are anecdotal, but that is what I see. I would love to see more testing on these two twists. James
 
James, I'm curious as to twist rates you picked. What does the theoretical model give for an Sg with that particular bullet?

Let's start by agreeing the model may be imperfect, and the number of 1.4 is not an on/off switch. I don't believe in magic, and will allow that one of my best 1K .30 barrels was on the slow side.

But the notion of gyroscopic stability of over 1.35 keeps popping up. As do references to the success of the .30 BR, in regards to ease of tuning. So my thinking wandered to, what's the difference between the .30 BR and the 6 PPC as commonly used in competition? Just caliber? With Al and Randy's recent posts, one obvious difference is the dynamic stability of the commonly used bullets. That's why I thought of a 12-twist -- or whatever it takes for an Sg around 1.4 for the PPC with bullets on an .825 jacket, or .790 jackets & a boattail.
 
A hart barrel I'm presently shooting on my rail is said as 13. I think its closer at
12 5/8. Using XBR powder, its fine at 30 grains. Groups open way up with 1/2
grain more in all directions. Comes right back, if I back off to 30. This was a very
tight barrel requiring a very small bushing. Its only one barrel, so who knows.
 
Charles, while at Krieger's a few years ago, John ran the Sg for the bullets that I used and none had the 1.5 that his program recommended for the 14 twist. He added that 1.5 must not be needed because too many shooters were winning with the 14 twist barrels. Tony Boyer uses a 15-14.25 gain twist Bartlein barrel with the 68 gr. Hottenstein BT's and does fairly well. He told me that he normally shoots the hotter loads, however. The best accuracy seems to be at the point of approaching the ragged edge of stability. To compete in today's short range BR matches one must shoot small agg's. If one is not sure that his twist will handle the cooler conditions, he/she should go to a faster twist. Good shooting...James
 
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A possible difference between 30cal and 6mm bullets re CG offset due to jacket runout.

IF jacket runout is a significant (and uncontrollable) factor and,

IF the swaged lead core is inherently more "perfect"..... better balanced (and controllable.)

Let's fudge the numbers around, let's exaggerate to illustrate.

Let's examine a 17 caliber bullet........ a LOT of jacket and LITTLE core. Logically jacket runout will be a huge factor for the little 17 because of the ratio of jacket to core. Likewise 22's will be better, 6's even better but 30's are mostly core material. A 30cal bullet has a massive lead core surrounded by a thin-for-mass jacket.

kapische???

30's are less affected by jacket abnormalities.

freewheelin' here, I got's no data nor numbers to back it up, just sayin'

al
 
Could be, al.

Could be simpler. Go to the formula for calculating shot dispersion due to CG offset in Vaughn's book. There is only one factor as a denominator -- rate of twist.

As the denominator gets bigger, the "number" gets smaller. Typical twist rate for .30s in the BR world is 17+

Q.E.D.

Edit: That's page 170 in my edition . . .
 
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To more fully understand jacket runout and how it relates to bullet diameter, we have to look at the jackets circumference.

We know that: diameter x Pi = circumference, so with that in mind:

.224 circumference = .703
.243 circumference = .763
.308 circumference = .967

Okay, so let's go a step further, using .224 as our baseline 'zero':

A .243 jacket has 9% more circumference than a .224
A .308 jacket has 26.5% more circumference than a .243
A .308 jacket has 37.5% more circumference than a .224

If we take three jackets (.224, .243 and .308), with all three showing .0002 t.i.r., which is the 'better' jacket?

The answer is: the jacket that shows the same runout over the longest length. Which is what circumference really is...the diameter 'laid out' in a straight line.

Good shootin'. -Al
 
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