Where Have All The Shooters Gone?

J

JimHeid

Guest
Hey Everyone,

Question; how has the attendance been at your local benchrest shoots?

Seven or eight years ago we were doing pretty good however the last two years have been fairly bad.

To the point that it isn't even worth the time getting out the target stands as at best three to five shooters
have been coming consistently.

In the past we have alternately shot 100 and 200 yard matches. The matches are informal at best in an attempt to attract those who don't have didicated bench guns.

Typically the payout has been fifty percent of the match fee. As you can imagine with three to five shooters that doesn't amount to much.

Any suggestions on how to turn this trend around for us? I have a hard time believing the shooters aren't out there.

Thanks, Jim
 
There is cause for concern in the viability of the shooting sports. The NRA recognized this trend some time ago. They realized that the future of shooting sports lies in the women in this country. Women have more influence in what their children engage in than the men do. Like it or not, if mama doesn't want her boy to grow up being a cowboy, he will not. Hense, Women in the Outdoors and the NRA are a very good thing. I look at the number of young people that I see hunting and on the range and it concerns me. The best thing that you can do is to take a women, girlfriend or kid shooting. Be mindful that the rigor and discipline that we engage as competitive shooters may be a turn off for new shooters. Try to keep it fun for them and they will come along. We all benefit from your efforts to draw new blood into the shooting sports.

My wife hates shooting paper but she handles a hunting rifle very well. If she would gut and drag her own deer she would be the perfect woman but that ain't happenin'. I can't take her near the shotgun department because she has to have something. I tried to teach her rifle shooting by my methods and just about lost her interest. Be open minded and realize we are all not the same but have a common interest. Just do what it takes to bring new shooters into the fold.
 
Shooters are still with us, but the cost of living has diminished "expendable money" for playing with the toys.

Add up the cost for a weekend at the range, down to the last drop of gas, grain of powder, food on the road, combine it with lower wages for all of us and guess what!

A bunch of us are retired also, on a fixed budget. 15 years ago I would burn up a couple pounds of powder a month, sometimes more. I don't even use a pound a year now.
 
In Miami they all want aks and ars they shoot tactical close quarters with popups. none of them can hit anything at 100 yards
 
Shooters are still with us, but the cost of living has diminished "expendable money" for playing with the toys.

Add up the cost for a weekend at the range, down to the last drop of gas, grain of powder, food on the road, combine it with lower wages for all of us and guess what!

A bunch of us are retired also, on a fixed budget. 15 years ago I would burn up a couple pounds of powder a month, sometimes more. I don't even use a pound a year now.

I guess I'm luckier then some because I ended up with more expendable income in retirement than I had when I was working, some of that because I was saving for retirement. I have decided to spend most of it over the next 13 years. I don't think I will care a whole lot at age 80 rather I have much money or not. The more you have the more they will take in the end.
 
In Miami they all want aks and ars they shoot tactical close quarters with popups. none of them can hit anything at 100 yards

We have, somehow, created a bunch of shooters who only want to make noise at our ranges. How so many of them have become interested in the most inaccurate rifles one can buy is beyond my comprehention. I often see folks show up with, say, a Mosin with all the ammo they could afford that day, sit down at a bench and shoot it all, not waiting for the barrel to cool or anything else. I wonder how they could be remotely interested in an ancient rifle and not care if they hit anything with it. I just don't get it. Same is true for those with the auto Loaders. Many of them don't even know how to sight them in!

I also see some of them with Handguns and that concerns me. I don't necessarily think the handgun coureses are a good thing, seeing some of their products. I am loath to say this but, in my opinion, some of them shouldn't be allowed to have guns.
 
In Miami they all want aks and ars they shoot tactical close quarters with popups. none of them can hit anything at 100 yards
I could go on and on about this subject but I won't bore all of you. I think swmft has hit on a big part of it. The sports that let you pretend to mow down armies of zombies while expending ammunition at close range and ridiculous rates tend to have more appeal. It's just more fun to fire a bunch of rounds.

Also, we have to recognize that, after some generic definition of "running", the shooting sports are the most popular outdoor activities in existence. There are nowhere near as many geochachers as shooters, for example. Unfortunately, the shooting sports are also the most fractured activity, ever. Period.

Rifle, pistol, shotgun. Shoot fast or shoot slow. Shoot moving targets or still. Shoot targets 3 feet away or a mile away across a valley. The equipment doesn't translate from one sport to another so an investment that doesn't work out is hard to "port over" to the next sport.

I like standing up and holding a pistol in one hand, shooting at targets 25 yards away. At the local range where I practice, there is a defensive mindset and they think I'm an idiot. To them, 5 or 6 shots fired in 2 seconds that all hit inside a 10-inch circle 3 yards away is highly skilled shooting. At 25 yards, I'm just wasting ammo at a range where only a rifle is appropriate.

Most countries keep to a basic attitude of "There's only one shooting match in the entire world. It takes place every 4 years and it's called the Olympics. Everything you do with a firearm on a range is either 1. trying to get to the Olympics 2. training for something (like a police or security guard job or hunting) or 3. having fun. In that sort of shooting monoculture, it's possible to create excitement and good match attendance because people perceive their competitive shooting options to be limited. That's why in China you're likely to see whole groups of ordinary citizens in public places watching a 50M Men's Pistol event on TV. (It also helps that that event was the first that brought gold to China, iirc.)

Back in the late 1980s, the NRA gave up National Governing Body status for ISSF events and I consider that the last nail in the coffin. Shooters in the U.S. feel no need to specialize in anything, it seems, so they don't stick to any sport through thick and thin. Attendance waxes and wanes with shooting fashion.

Add in the fact that most of our little hobbies can be mighty expensive and these are not the best of times, and I'm happy when I see a decent-sized group at any match of any sort.

Funny or tragic, you be the judge - If you go to the web site of the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association and read about the events that are held at the world championships, you'll find an admonishment to bring along additional guns, even for events in which you're not qualified. The reason? Sometimes, not enough people show up to fill all the slots at the *world championship* so you might actually get a chance to compete.

The shooting sports are so fractured, so split off into mutually exclusive sub-specialties, that there's just not enough competitors to go around.

I think Jim is absolutely right when he observes that "I have a hard time believing the shooters aren't out there." They are out there. It's just that they're shooting the fashionable stuff, the cool stuff. I shoot in Glock Sport Shooting Federation Indoor League matches. Those are supposed to be just a stepping stone to the "real" Glock matches. Every event I shoot is chock full of shooters waiting their turn on the line. The real, outdoor, fully sanctioned Glock matches fill up ahead of time with hundreds of registered attendees and often have a wait list.

Yes, there are shooters out there. Plenty of them. The question is not a lack of shooters. The question is finding the type of people who enjoy benchrest. If you want more attendance at benchrest matches, you're going to have to find more women and young (preferably very young) people who are naturally predisposed to think of the tasks required to win a match as "fun".

And there begins a discussion of the state of U.S. culture that could fill multiple pages and result in a few reasonably defensible doctoral dissertations. I think I'll duck out before the discussion gets that deep.
 
How is a young person ever going to compete at taday's price's. It won"t make any difference what branch of shooting he, or she may choose. Look at the turn out Camp Perry now has. Look where price's have gone even for the .22 rimfire ammunition. What avaerage person can practice at those price's?
 
There are a lot of very good responses to this thread. The "mother syndrome" is spot on!

I'll add another - I hate to be morbid, but it is a fact...many of the benchrest shooters have died. One can see the posts and reminders on a weekly basis on this website about another benchrest shooter passing on.

Cost and inflation is also a big factor IMO. Furthermore, youngsters are discouraged from handling firearms. Even if many of them are given a chance, they don't take an interest because shooting requires effort. Most of them would rather play stupid video games or send text messages to each other.

I'm starting to sound like an old curmudgeon.

Greg Walley
Kelbly's Inc.
 
The cost has increased greatly in the past few years, components have all gone up along with fuel and lodging. With take home pay going down, ain't had an increase in take home pay in 5 yrs, it makes it harder to turn loose of the money to attend.
 
I agree with everything said previously as it all figures in, but I believe the money angle is the chief culprit in this day and age. In many posts & replies about how to get started in benchrest or longrange types of shooting I have seen, experienced shooters tell a novice to "save your money and get the good stuff". Sage advice to be sure but a young fellow starting out, probably married with a mortgage, kids and all the attendant money demands just cannot swing the price of high end shooting gear. Old milsurps and paramilitary semi-autos are cheap by comparison. At least they are shooting which is a good thing.
 
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Enjoy it while you can

Attrition,due to various factors, is a natural occurrence in Sports/hobbies. Its difficult,if not impossible to maintain status quo in an exotic shooting sport like Benchrest Competition. I put it in the same category as Sling Shot Competition. Its not for everybody. Golf ,a main stream sport,has seen an increase in participation in the past year,despite a shackled economy. Its all about Marketing and resources. Enjoy the Sport(Benchrest} while you can. There are no future guarantees.


Glenn
 
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How is a young person ever going to compete at taday's price's. It won"t make any difference what branch of shooting he, or she may choose. Look at the turn out Camp Perry now has. Look where price's have gone even for the .22 rimfire ammunition. What avaerage person can practice at those price's?

What is the turnout (or, more illuminatingly, the trend in turnout) at Camp Perry? I've never been and have no desire, so I don't know what point you're making.

As for the average person being able to practice, it depends on the sport. As far as I can tell, there's no cheap way to practice benchrest. Some shooting sports, however, are extremely cheap to practice. If you're willing to swill the ISSF koolaid, you can achieve well over 90% of your potential as a shooter for minimal investment. An older, no-longer-competitive air pistol can be had for well under $500. Pellets are cheap and so is setting up a 10M range in your backyard. Nearly the same thing is true for air rifle.

However, like all ISSF sports, air pistol is HARD. It requires dedication from the beginning. Without a coach or mentor, the average kid today will abandon the whole idea after the first firing session when s/he can't even stay on the paper.

I'd like to see organized club matches where the clubs provide all the equipment, all of it identical, shot over courses of fire where even the lousiest kid can feel like they have some success from the beginning. This begins to get off into game theory (most shooting sports are very badly designed from the perspective of attracting new shooters then providing a clear path to championship status that's based on increased skill rather than the ability to buy the best equipment in existence) so, again, I'll stop before I get too boring.

Of course, I've just made a suggestion that plays right into and terribly aggravates my previous criticism - that the shooting sports offer so much variety that it's often easy to forget how popular they are because no one shows up at the same matches you do.

Nowadays, for every shooting match that depends on fine skill and putting bullets close to each other (say, bullseye pistol or benchrest rifle), there's probably another match happening the same day, within reasonable driving distance, where there are large numbers of shooters tossing high round counts downrange at targets that are big and close. People these days, generally, want to have fun without doing too much work. Those bang-bang-bang sports offer them that opportunity. Understand, I don't mean to denigrate the "action shooting" sports. The folks at the very top of those sports work just as hard and spend just as much money as anyone else (except, maybe, for those shotgunners who consider guns that cost as much as my house to be normal...but that's a whole 'nother dynamic).

I return to my previous statement. If you want more benchrest shooters, then you've got to find some cheap way to let unskilled, barely disciplined little punks get some enjoyment out of the sport so that they'll come back again and again over time, until they become the knowledgeable, mature adults that currently make up the majority of the benchrest shooting crowd. I don't see where that upgrade path exists.

Or you've got to find a way to reach out to already knowledgeable, mature adults and convince them to try your sport. In these economic times, that seems even more difficult.

Case in point - I retired last June. I have just enough extra nickels to rub together that I could become a benchrest shooter. The idea seemed intriguing. So I contacted Jackie Schmidt and showed up at Tomball for a match. (Two matches ago, I think. I was the fat, Santa-looking guy who hung around all day.) The people were fantastic, exactly the sort of sharp folks who can provide a challenge. They were also unfailingly friendly and courteous to the stranger in their midst. I walked downrange and got a lesson in setting up flags. I was shown several (very lovely, made me drool) rifles.

On the downside, I saw people disgusted with their own performances who had placed more bullets on paper closer to the mark than I thought possible. The consistent performers seemed to have some sort of in-flight magic at work. Yes, I know it's reading the wind, good equipment, and an orderly mindset. But to give the sport a go, I'd (realistically) need to spend several thousand dollars on a rifle and a bunch of tools that I would then need to learn to use. Even that wouldn't be an insurmountable problem if I had a place to practice, which I don't. I haven't fired a rifle in years because I don't live near a public range that will allow me to set up my chronograph and work at my own pace without interruptions and without unsafe yahoos on the line, pointing their loaded guns at everyone. Getting into a private club, for me, involves either a very long waiting list or driving at least a couple of hours.

There were just too many obstacles in the way. (Shame, too. I really liked those guys.)

Instead, I spent about $600 on a commercial pistol range membership where I can practice daily if I want (though I generally only get there 3 or 4 times a week). Add $400 for a good starter pistol in .22LR (I'll buy some multi-kilobuck, European pistol when my skills reach a certain point) and another thousand dollars on ammo and I'm good to go to increase my shooting skills far enough to start winning matches in any of several disciplines. I'll decide which to formally enter when I've gotten my skills up to a certain level, though I've already found I can shoot possibles in some disciplines in practice and do within a couple of points of that in actual matches, several of which I've entered basically on a lark.

Thus, with less than $2K out of pocket, I can shoot for fun and get better. I can't stress this enough: I HAVE A CLEAR UPGRADE PATH. If I want to spend more and devote more time, there are dozens of disciplines I can enter to meet nice people and win trophies. If I want to spend mountains of cash and every waking hour working on my shooting, I can dream of Olympic gold. (Fat, literally, chance but the theoretical possibility exists.) I can go as far or as short a distance as I want.

Most sports, even the most horrifically expensive, recognize the need for this path to exist. Even auto racing (and, at the highest levels, that's about as expensive as you can get) has junior dragsters, kart racing, and circle-track car classes specifically designed to kill the equipment race and just get some kids out on the track so they can develop a love of the sport.

The OP wanted to see more benchresters. I think that would be a very good thing. So where is the fun-from-the-beginning, cheap and easy to start, take it as far as you want, clear upgrade path in benchrest?
 
The previous posts all gave excellent reasons for lack of participation in traditional shooting sports. However, don't overlook the influence that TV viewing has on our everyday lives. It seems that these days looking good on TV is far more important than real world performance. This applies to the shooting sports, sports in general or even unfortunately the political scene. While I applaud having several shooting based reality shows on TV, many cater to spectacular visual effects more than traditional shooting excellence. One show this week showed shooting gallon cans of brightly colored paint at short range with a sawed off shotgun. Not very useful in the real world, but I suppose it appealed to some in the TV audience. I can see that watching shooters punch holes in paper would not be very interesting to the average TV viewer. Young people have their video games, etc. and seem to expect the real world to mirror their XBox or whatever. Shooting as many rounds as possible at short range at all sorts of targets is the norm for them, that's what they see in their games and on TV. The shooting sports world is changing and I suppose us old farts will just have to suck it up and get used to it. Vic
 
Ben, The cheap and easy from the start is the fun some of the guys at your range are having just shooting.
Your example of what a bench rest shooter does and what you may accomplish is leadership by example. They may not be shooting like you but they are surely looking at your wind flags and watching how good you are doing. But what they are really looking at is how much fun your having while doing it. It will take a while but the interest will come from the shooters who would like to get better.
Now in your pistol shooting, if you head toward the bullseye area of shooting yes, you will need a good starter pistol like a Ruger. That can be tuned by experts like Clark did years ago if you like the grip angle and your done. Or you might move into a S&W model 41 with the barrel length of your choice or a High Standard. It will then be your choice if you want to go for an Import as I highly recommend you trying before buying as the triggers are different compared to the S&W or high standard or the Ruger. For instance go to a match and see if one of the guys will let you shoot his single shot Olympic pistol. Lots of fun, hair trigger, misses by a mile. Just hope your eyes hold out, that is the weakest link.
Good shooting to you and have a good time out there.
Centerfire
 
It,s money and the politics of the day .
I have shot Rifles-Handguns-and Shotguns for over 50 years this is what I know .
In Registered Trap I shot for 40 plus years all I heard was get the Kids shooting it,s our future . (that is B.S.)
The Kids will shoot as long as mom-dad-grandpa is paying after that forget it . One in ten may come back later . Trap shooting is expensive a sunday can cost $200.00 or more and a practice round is 9/10 bucks in 15 Min. I shot 25/30,000 targets a year half practice half registerd for a lot of years .

A good trap gun is $8,000.00 plus most are over $12,000 my last trap gun cost $16,500 . I spent over $20,000 a year shooting trap . What 25 year old is going to spend that kind of money for a two day a week sport ?
 
It,s money and the politics of the day .
I have shot Rifles-Handguns-and Shotguns for over 50 years this is what I know .
In Registered Trap I shot for 40 plus years all I heard was get the Kids shooting it,s our future . (that is B.S.)
The Kids will shoot as long as mom-dad-grandpa is paying after that forget it . One in ten may come back later . Trap shooting is expensive a sunday can cost $200.00 or more and a practice round is 9/10 bucks in 15 Min. I shot 25/30,000 targets a year half practice half registerd for a lot of years .

A good trap gun is $8,000.00 plus most are over $12,000 my last trap gun cost $16,500 . I spent over $20,000 a year shooting trap . What 25 year old is going to spend that kind of money for a two day a week sport ?

In my opinion, this post is right on th money. A club I am a member of has a big Youth Program and spends a lot of money on it. I don't believe any of those youth ever spread out to the other disciplines the club offers. They are all focused on Position Shooting. A fellow who runs a shooting program in a local High School told me he gets kids coming from far way to shoot in that program. Parents will support what the kids want to do.

Benchrest games are different and more like Trap & Skeet. It takes someone who likes that particular sport to get involved and to stick with it. If they do, they will spend whatever is necessary to participate. I don't think trying to involve young people is the answer. Trying to get people of means and retirees is the answer, from my observation. I have seen a couple of young folks with real tallent quit benchrest because they wanted to do something else. Those retirees who have joined up are still with us. I guess we could dumb the sport down to it being Action Benhrest shooting but I don't think those who have been at it for years want to see it get to be More Fun = EASIER.
 
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I don't think trying to involve young people is the answer. Trying to get people of means and retirees is the answer, from my observation. I have seen a couple of young folks with real tallent quit benchrest because they wanted to do something else. Those retirees who have joined up are still with us. I guess we could dumb the sport down to it being Action Benhrest shooting but I don't think those who have been at it for years want to see it get to be More Fun = EASIER.

Hmmm.

The more I think about it, the more that sounds reasonable. I never suggested that benchrest should be dumbed down. I suggested that growing benchrest involved EITHER getting kids involved who'll stick with it for life OR "...find a way to reach out to already knowledgeable, mature adults and convince them to try your sport."

Personally, I don't know anyone under 30 with the right temperament. Young folks have action shooting games and they have certain highly traditional shooting sports that can lead to college scholarships or maybe Olympic glory. Neither of those involves anything like traditional benchrest.

So is the shrinking attendance cited by the OP just a marketing problem? Is that all it is?
 
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