What has made the greatest contribution to shrinking aggs?
- Thread starter James M.
- Start date
SGJennings
New member
I don't know about wind flags being the biggest advancement. I haven't been around that long. I can say that Mike's flags, combined with Dave Halblom's sail tails, is far and away the best money that I've spent since starting this game.
jackie schmidt
New member
Name one shooter on the USA World Team that uses sail tails.
Gene Bukys doesn't seem to care whose flags he shoots over. He will figure it out.
Actions in the sense that they have evolved into pieces that allow shooters to shoot faster.
Bullets in that there are so many fine bullet makers, many more shooters are able to have access to the best.
Barrels for the same reason. While we are all still looking for that one "great one", the chances of doing that are much better now days.
Scopes. Everything from Gene Buky's locked scopes with external adjustable mounts, to the March.
Better all around equipment. The days are gone when only a few had the much coveted "unobtainables". If you have the cash, you can just about get anything any body else has...........jackie
Gene Bukys doesn't seem to care whose flags he shoots over. He will figure it out.
Actions in the sense that they have evolved into pieces that allow shooters to shoot faster.
Bullets in that there are so many fine bullet makers, many more shooters are able to have access to the best.
Barrels for the same reason. While we are all still looking for that one "great one", the chances of doing that are much better now days.
Scopes. Everything from Gene Buky's locked scopes with external adjustable mounts, to the March.
Better all around equipment. The days are gone when only a few had the much coveted "unobtainables". If you have the cash, you can just about get anything any body else has...........jackie
Mike's flags are really good. here is a video i made of myself at a local club match to help work on bench techniques.
this was the first match of the day at 100. you can see how much more sensitive Mike's flags are compared to the others on either side of me.
other than flags, the custom actions available, bullets, barrels, brass... They all have helped and are available to anyone.
this was the first match of the day at 100. you can see how much more sensitive Mike's flags are compared to the others on either side of me.
other than flags, the custom actions available, bullets, barrels, brass... They all have helped and are available to anyone.
M
MarkR
Guest
Although I am currently using a much older set of flags.......I have looked over a bunch of different flagsets and these that Mike make will be my next purchase!
A
abintx
Guest
What do you think is most responsible for very small aggs that we see in short range Benchrest today? Powder, bullets, barrels, actions.....? I will put my vote in for the wind flags that we have today. Here are some excellent flags from Mike Ezell of Kentucky. James
None of the above, not taken separately or collectively.
The most responsible for smaller aggs? The passing of relevant information by folks such as Glenn Newick, Mike Ratigan, Tony Boyer, and local mentors.
Don Nielson
New member
Smaller groups?
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
The PPC cartridge and turned necks.
Don-smaller groups, how could that help smaller aggs????
Don-smaller groups, how could that help smaller aggs????
My vote will be bullets, the reason is I own a couple 40's and 50's BR rifles along with a varmint rifle or two from this period. One of these guns came with the shooters records which showed the groups shot in matches he attended. During this time period a gun that agg'ed in the .3's was a good shooter, many were in the .4's and .5's range. Using modern bullets in these old guns just plain makes them come alive. So there's my vote for what it's worth.
Jeff Aberegg
Jeff Aberegg
mwezell
Mike Ezell
James and others, thanks very much for the kind words. I don't know about any flags making the single greatest contribution, or any single component, for that matter. I think we can attribute better scores and aggs to better equipment, overall. Better actions, stocks, barrels, bullets, rests, and flags. I'm sure I'm leaving some things out. I do think that I have a very good flag. It's funny though...many of us go to great lengths to have the very best of just about everything, and then show up at a match with flags that clearly haven't evolved with the rest of our equipment. I have tried to change that with these flags. There has been a lot of thought put into them and I'm very happy that you are impressed. I am proud yet very humbled by the responses here and from others about them. Thanks to all!--Mike
Since we only shoot UBR score matches at the Gallatin Gun Club, I can't honestly say that Mike Ezell's flags have contributed to smaller groups. I can say that his flags are the best I've seen and as more competitors have started using them, our scores have increased. As far as small groups, I would offer that bullets and barrels are the major components of great groups. As Wilbur has often opined, if you have a great barrel, you're going to win some matches, when it's gone, you will struggle with the rest of us.
Rick
Rick
Jeff Stover
Member
Information.
The ability to tune was much more rare in the late 70s.
The ability to tune was much more rare in the late 70s.
R
rwnoel
Guest
varminthunter1
Club Coordinator
shrinking aggs
I agree with Jeff.
Information!
Today we have the ability to learn from each other via the computer. We take little bits of information to heart. We spend our time researching match reports, equipment lists, tracking down proper equipment, and practice using known components. Ever stop to think how much info we have passed on to new shooters who really used it to their advantage. Pat yourselves on the back, people! This forum is amazing! We have so many accomplished shooters, gunsmiths, and just damn nice people here, who share their knowledge for free.
I agree with Jeff.
Information!
Today we have the ability to learn from each other via the computer. We take little bits of information to heart. We spend our time researching match reports, equipment lists, tracking down proper equipment, and practice using known components. Ever stop to think how much info we have passed on to new shooters who really used it to their advantage. Pat yourselves on the back, people! This forum is amazing! We have so many accomplished shooters, gunsmiths, and just damn nice people here, who share their knowledge for free.
aggregate score
generally speaking, a small "agg" is 5 targets of 5 shots each........ measure widest point of each group, add them all up and divide by 5 to get your aggregate score
This is a "single agg" then there's the larger aggregates of yardages and different rifle systems.
Last edited:
Boyd Allen
Active member
I find it interesting that evidently in the East, daisy wheels are still popular, while at Visalia (CA) they have pretty much gone the way of the dinosaur. I would agree that the free flow of information, has done a lot.
For the newbie: When someone refers to an agg., that is short for aggregate, which is the way that our sport refers to an average of group size.
Typically,in short range benchrest, it would consist involve adding up the measurements of five groups, and dividing by five, except that at 200 yards the additional step is taken of dividing the average of groups by two, so that it can be averaged with the 100 yard agg. to get a grand agg. For instance if the average group at 200 was .500 then the agg would be .2500. Agregates are always given to four places, and groups to three.
It seems to me that there are two recent factors that have changed from years past, scopes that are more reliable, and more attention is being payed to charge weight consistency. As far as flags go, my friend Rick Graham has sold a bunch, and I get good reports from everyone that I know that uses them. Very well thought out, and a high quality build.
For the newbie: When someone refers to an agg., that is short for aggregate, which is the way that our sport refers to an average of group size.
Typically,in short range benchrest, it would consist involve adding up the measurements of five groups, and dividing by five, except that at 200 yards the additional step is taken of dividing the average of groups by two, so that it can be averaged with the 100 yard agg. to get a grand agg. For instance if the average group at 200 was .500 then the agg would be .2500. Agregates are always given to four places, and groups to three.
It seems to me that there are two recent factors that have changed from years past, scopes that are more reliable, and more attention is being payed to charge weight consistency. As far as flags go, my friend Rick Graham has sold a bunch, and I get good reports from everyone that I know that uses them. Very well thought out, and a high quality build.
Greg Walley
Member
Wind flags...with all else a distant second, third, fourth....
Flags definitely are the biggest help. Just look at the trophies awarded at the Nationals and Super Shoot where the aggregate sizes are listed. One can easily tell when wind flags were introduced. 0.1000" easily shaved off of the grand aggregates.
In fact, I'd like to see a major match take place with a hard blow and no wind flags allowed just to see what would happen.
Good bullets have also been a big help.
More shooters with good equipment, rather than a select few shooters with the best equipment towering over all of the others with run-of-the-mill equipment. I believe Fred Sinclair started this trend.
More shooters buying good barrels and carefully tuning them to their best potential...not the one or two barrels every couple of years (like me). Or only using one barrel until it wears out...like most of the shooters (even the top shooters) in the old days, because that was all they could afford.
Getting the front scope base off of the barrel has also helped. Good bedding and glued-in actions.
Greg Walley
Kelbly's Inc.
What do you think is most responsible for very small aggs that we see in short range Benchrest today? Powder, bullets, barrels, actions.....? I will put my vote in for the wind flags that we have today. Here are some excellent flags from Mike Ezell of Kentucky. James
Flags definitely are the biggest help. Just look at the trophies awarded at the Nationals and Super Shoot where the aggregate sizes are listed. One can easily tell when wind flags were introduced. 0.1000" easily shaved off of the grand aggregates.
In fact, I'd like to see a major match take place with a hard blow and no wind flags allowed just to see what would happen.
Good bullets have also been a big help.
More shooters with good equipment, rather than a select few shooters with the best equipment towering over all of the others with run-of-the-mill equipment. I believe Fred Sinclair started this trend.
More shooters buying good barrels and carefully tuning them to their best potential...not the one or two barrels every couple of years (like me). Or only using one barrel until it wears out...like most of the shooters (even the top shooters) in the old days, because that was all they could afford.
Getting the front scope base off of the barrel has also helped. Good bedding and glued-in actions.
Greg Walley
Kelbly's Inc.
Better, I think, to have a match where everyone had to fire a round within 5 seconds of when the rangemaster called for it. The rangemaster would pick differing conditions, so the shooters would have to anticipate where the shot would go in them. Let them use flags -- or scatter tree branches (with leaves) on the ground, whatever -- the "you must shoot now" rule would change how they're used.
I guess this would be a form of "tactical benchrest?" As a bet, I'd bet the same people would win, but by a larger margin.
Wind Flags
When were wind flags first introduced to the sport?
I bet if you gave all the shooters at the Super Shoot the same top shelf equipment and the same perfectly tuned ammo and The most sensitive,readable wind flags produced. The results would be the same.
Practice,Practice,Practice makes a huge difference.
Glenn
When were wind flags first introduced to the sport?
I bet if you gave all the shooters at the Super Shoot the same top shelf equipment and the same perfectly tuned ammo and The most sensitive,readable wind flags produced. The results would be the same.
Practice,Practice,Practice makes a huge difference.
Glenn