Varmin Grenade Problem

Gentlemen: I have to include myself in the "ignorant" category in this regard!
I was ignorant that the Varmint Grenade bullets require (or are designed for special barrel twists - or out of the norm barrel twists!) special handling.
I went down to my local tiny pawn/sport shop to solve this situation and looked over the Varmint Grenade bullets there.
The 22 caliber 36 grain bullets had NO warning that special twist rates may apply!
They had NO 22 caliber 50 grain Varmint Grenades there to check on.
The 243 caliber Varmint Grenades DID HAVE a special twist rate notice prominently printed on the end flap area of the plastic boxed bullets - well the warning was where "end flaps" would be on the old timey bullet boxes.
I was so disgusted that I left the store without memorizing or writing down the twist designation or the weight of those 24 caliber Varmint Grenades.
I have enough things to worry about, try to keep straight and have to remember AND I don't live in Californicopia - needless to say I won't be buying or trying any Varmint Grenades in my Varminters.
There are just to many wonderful Varminting bullets out there now - I do not feel lacking in any Varminting applications.
I feel enlightened now that this halo of ignorance has been lifted from my brow.
I am still dumbfounded though - that anyone would intentionally design and produce a 50 grain Varmint bullet that won't stabilize in the most common of 22-250 twist rates!
Maybe there is a need?
Catchy name though - Varmint Grenades!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
 
With a 22-250 you will need closer to a 1 in 10 to stabalise a 50 grain varmint grenade.
It is long for its weight and the fact that the ogive is hollow makes the center of pressure and gravity move way back on the bullet mass.
This creates a situation where the bullet is more susceptible to upset during initial flight and during transition of the sound barrier at longer range.
I class this bullet design as a faulty concept .
 
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Al, its arm-chair jockeys like you that make the guys that might be new to this sport not want to ask questions and educate themselves.
 
J. Valentine said:
With a 22-250 you will need closer to a 1 in 10 to stabalise a 50 grain varmint grenade.
It is long for its weight and the fact that the ogive is hollow makes the center of pressure and gravity move way back on the bullet mass.
This creates a situation where the bullet is more susceptible to upset during initial flight and during transition of the sound barrier at longer range.
I class this bullet design as a faulty concept .
Click to expand...



Whoahhh there Mr Valentine.... :)


Where did the idea that rearward CG is bad originate? I've always thought that instability occurs when the CG gets too far FORWARD, too near center.... and what do you mean "the center of pressure and gravity" ?

What gives?


al
 
Just to lighten the mood a little. I once had a girlfriend that used to tell me... "I'm ignorant, I'm not stupid!" She was right and it made me think. :cool: My wife had a friend in high school named Jane (unfortunately) about the time Saturday Night Live was first on the air. So naturally kids used to say to her, "Jane, you ignorant slut" (a line from the SNL Show). To which Jane would reply, "I am not ignorant!" :eek: :D
 
Al, the attitude came from your comment about my post out of a handful because i used the word problem when i guess i should have used issue. not really an attitude though. as far as armchair jockey, come on, you have to know the guys that have nothing better to do than sit in their chair in front of a computer screen punching keys on forums all day. talking about everything instead of getting out and doing it. most of them not having a clue as to whats really going on. from what i've read lately you do know whats going on so it really doesn't fit though. i guess another poor choice of words on my part. i do have to stand with you 100% on the rearward center of gravity
 
GENTLEMEN, GENTLEMEN!
PUHLEEEZZE!
Now back to the subject at hand, I went back to my pawn/sport shop and double checked the Varmint Grenade boxes for "warnings".
There were NO WARNINGS on the 20 caliber 26 grain Varmint Grenades!
There were NO WARNINGS on the 22 caliber 36 grain Varmint Grenades!
There WAS A WARNING on the 24 caliber 62 grain Varmint Grenades - the warning read "recommended twist rate is 1 in 10" or faster"!
Hmm.... I agree this is a line of bullets waiting to cause "headaches" - not for the Varmints but for the reloader/SHOOTER!
Hey you Californicopians - be a little more careful who you vote for!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
 
Saw a video on these bullets a while back and it looks like they work as advertised, but it's sort of strange that the 50 gr .224's don't have a warning. Sound like they might be a good bullet from a 1 in 9 barrel on larger varmints than prairie dogs. The lighter ones should make good launch instruments for sod poodles, but since they're more than V-Max's I'll stick with them.

No condors in Montana, but I'm sure that the fools will pretty soon be telling us how we're killing off vultures, coyotes, foxes, and whatever else cleans up shot up dog towns from using lead core bullets.
 
Larry Elliott: The shop I was in did not have ANY 22 caliber 50 grain Varmint Grenades - so "I" don't know if there is a warning on those boxes of bullets or not?
I am not sure if you are wondering about the missing "warning" from my posts or from the original posters post.
Anyway I don't know if there IS a warning on the 50 grainers.
I have called the law enforement folks twice here in Montana regarding Eagles that were injured and beside the highways!
They come out and roundup the Eagles and take them to the Bird Sanctuary folks for repairs.
And the repairs they need are caused by collisions with vehicles. The Eagles eat on various animals that are road killed and they often "over-indulge" on the meat - this changes their "take-off" abilities and then cars or trucks come along and bonk them!
This is what the law enforcement types tell me anyway.
My point is - I am surprised at how many Eagles, Owls, Hawks and Falcons I see laying beside the highways here in Montana!
I am sure that cars and trucks kill more Birds of Prey (by a factor of 1,000 to 1!) than spent lead bullets do!
My wife has personally wiped out TWO Great Horned Owls with her Jeepster in the past 10 years!
One took out the power antenae and the other took out the grill - both were expensive fixes - but more importantly these wonderful birds were mortified!
I can't see the lead bullet ban as being anything but an oblique (round about!) attack on Hunters!
Knock on wood the "odd thinkers" (fools as you so aptly describe them!) won't begin that Californicopia type stuff here in the Rockies!
I think I saw the video you are referring to and that was interesting and entertaining!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGUy
 
Varmint Guy, since you didn't mention the 50 gr .22's I should have probably figured that none were in stock. :eek:

A lot of critters seem to think that highways are the place to be, then the scavengers are there to clean up. I'm sure that you're right that more scavengers of all kinds die from run-ins with vehicles than from eating lead fragments. Unfortunately crows always seem to leave their meal before I get there with my truck, and I've only ever killed one bird with a vehicle - a robin that dive-bombed the front edge of a '64 Plymouth I had centuries ago.

Of course PETA thinks that the only reason wild animals are killed on roads is because they're running away from those evil hunters. Which likely explains those killed in the middle of the summer. :rolleyes:
 
VarmintGuy said:
GENTLEMEN, GENTLEMEN!
Hey you Californicopians - be a little more careful who you vote for!
VarmintGuy
Click to expand...
Excuse me but......

It doesn't appear to matter whom conservatives or gun owners vote for in this state. You just cant get some one elected to office with out the votes from San Fran Sicko and Los Angeles(New Azteca). Even if we do elect a Republican Governor, some one I didn't vote for, he signs just about every anti gun anti hunting bill that comes across his desk. The man breasted Austrian has stuck it to us.

I am open to reasonable suggestions.

Hopeless in Kalifornia.............................
 
I truly feel sorry for the sane people in Kalifornia, my wife's sister lives there, but there seem to be a whole lot of ding-dongs who either don't vote or vote for the person who says they'll give them the most goodies. As soon as people figure out that they can enrich themselves through the government the system is toast. They have, it is. :mad:
 
We will see a push everywhere for no lead in the near future. Included will be no lead shotshells for all hunting.
 
langenc said:
We will see a push everywhere for no lead in the near future. Included will be no lead shotshells for all hunting.
Click to expand...

Followed by non Mercury primers and hulls made of a yet to be invented expensive, environmentally friendly material made in China, that eventually it will be discovered is made with toxic led paint.

We will be forced to capture the birds by hand, then push the all copper pellets in by hand.
 
Barnes bullets are garbage. Don't waste powder on them. If you want to see varmints explode, you have to hit them first. The 50-55 gr Sierra is what you should be loading. The 50 gr ballistic tip shoots well in mine also. 41 gr H380

22-250 is normally 14 twist, check with your cleaning rod and let us know.

I sat on an airplane next to an engineer that had previously worked for Barnes, designing bullets. he told me they used software from the Navy that was originally used to design submarines....Although an interesting conversation.....I did mention several bad experiences I had with their bullets, including the horrible coppering you get from them.

Ben
 
Bnhpr said:
Barnes bullets are garbage. Don't waste powder on them. If you want to see varmints explode, you have to hit them first. The 50-55 gr Sierra is what you should be loading.
Click to expand...

Here in Southern Kaliforina we would love to use the Sierra's but they have that evil, disenfranchising led in them. we have been forced, with the blessing of Ah-Nold, to use the Barnes. It's all about the Condor, and the environment, and making it more expensive to shoot and the children and Gorebal warming etc... Get it?

Part of the Change we have been promised...

BTW: my 22-250 shoots 36 grainers .489" @100, they aint Berger's but good enough for Coyote's
 
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I apologize fo' the 20M Communists in CA.

East and north of you, not too far..is more gun friendly.....
 
alinwa said:
Whoahhh there Mr Valentine.... :)


Where did the idea that rearward CG is bad originate? I've always thought that instability occurs when the CG gets too far FORWARD, too near center.... and what do you mean "the center of pressure and gravity" ?

What gives?


al
Click to expand...

Too far forward is bad also as far as I understand . There is a center of gravity and a center of pressure and they are related to how well a bullet resists upsett during initial passage through the muzzel blast area and coming back down through the sound barrier.
A bullet should have its CG behind the Center of Pressure but I think the design of the varmint grenade moves it back too far and that is why it is hard to stabalize in addition to its length . If you have the right twist and you can get them shooting accurately then they may be ok as they will explode as they say but I still don't like the design .
I am not going to argue with you Al that is my opinion take it or leave it.

Experiences of other shooters :----
I posted this on another thread, but thought I'd start a new one and try for more responses.

My first trial with a box of 50 Gr Barnes Varmint Grenades thru an AR with 1 / 9 twist and they went thru the paper target sideways! These bullets were given to me since they couldn't stabilize them in his rifle with 1/14 twist.
These 50gr Varmint Grenades are very long for their weight. The box has a sticker saying 1/10 or tighter recommended.

They were loaded with 26gr & 27gr of Varget. CCI 42 Primer in LC brass. I didn't chrono them. Hodgdon's data show approx. 3200 to 3300 fpm

They are fragile at the hollow tip and my seating die was indenting a "ring" in them. This is in a New Hornady die with the follower in it.

Any suggestions on the proper way to seat these bullets without damage?

Maybe they need 1/7 twist?
 
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ring in the seater

I had the same thing today with a redding micro seater and 68g bthp (.224)hornady. Some help for both of us please.
 
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