Varmin Grenade Problem

M

Martin Busteed

Guest
I bought some 50gr Barnes Varmint Grenades for my 22-250 and loaded them with 35.0gr of Varget. I fired 5 of these and they all went through the target sideways. I guess the twist rate of my barrel is too slow, its a weatherby red mist but I cant find anywhere what the twist rate of my barrel is. Does anyone have any idea.

Thanks for any help.
 
Do You Have a Cleaning Rod??

Start the rod with a good tight patch, (or a brush), and put a mark on a small piece of tape on the top about 15 inches from your bore guide. Make a note of the exact measurement. Push the rod in untill it make one complete revolution,, (you will have tojudge this), then measure the distance again, subtracting this from the initial measurement. If it advanced 10 inches, then it is a 1-10, and so on.........jackie
 
Martin Busteed: On the Weatherby "online site" all the Weatherby's I could find specifications on, showed a twist rate of 1 in 14".
Now I have not as yet owned a Weatherby Rifle in caliber 22-250 Remington but I have owned a LOT of other Rifles in caliber 22-250 Remington that had 1 in 14" twist barrels. I have NEVER had a 50 grain bullet "keyhole" (fail to stabilize!) in these Rifles!
My 224 Weatherby shoots 50 grain bullets just fine!
I am truly puzzled as to what may be wrong with your loads/Rifle?
I am continuing my search for a clue.
What model IS your Weatherby again?
Good luck!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
 
I haven't seen any Barnes Varmint Grenade's in person, but since the core is a tin/copper mixture it's lighter than a lead core. It's the length of a bullet not the weight that determines the twist needed, and I'd be willing to bet that these at 50 gr are likely as long as 55's or 60's with lead core. The 35(?) gr Varmint Grenades will likely work well.
 
Larry Elliot: "IF" the 50 grain Varmint Grenade bullet is more like the "length of a 55 to 60 grain bullet" AND the length of the bullet vs. the twist rate, IS the determining stabilizing factor - then I have even MORE experience with them going through the target "point on" from my 1 in 14" twist barrels!
I am still searching for a Weatherby in 22-250 Remington that is anything other than 1 in 14" twist.
Maybe that is where the problem originates - his Rifle has an odd twist?
Its hard for me to imagine the "Varmint Grenade" folks (Barnes) designing and then producing a 22 caliber 50 grain bullet that will not easily stabilize in a 1 in 14" twist barrel?
Martin Busteed's "load" seems to be right in the middle of the Hodgdon folks load recommendations so that is probably not the source of de-stabilization!
Hmmm.....
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
 
Have

you loaded any other brand of bullets? Maybe you need to try another brand of 50 gr and maybe some 55 & 60 grain bullets also. I always wondered why there are no 57 or 58 grain .224 bullets. There are several 52 and 53 grain 224 bullets.
 
Varmint Guy,
Uh, bullet length is the determining factor on bullet twist required. A well established fact, check the literature.

I've never used Varmint Grenade bullets, have no experience with them other than having seen ads and pictures of them in magazines. From the pictures it looks like the 35 gr version is about as long as a "normal" 50 gr. As an example 75 gr Hornady HPBT match bullets will usually stabilize from a 1 in 9 barrel, while their 75 gr A Max won't because it's longer.

There are .22 centerfires with faster than 1 in 14" twist barrels including most .223 Rems. The standard twist in .223's has been 1 in 12, and now seems to be 1 in 9. A .22-250 is likely to have a 1 in 14 barrel, and this one might be slower. Some .22-250's don't stabilize 55 gr Ballistic Tips well because they're longer than "normal" 55's.
 
To measure he twist lay a strip of masking tape lengthwise and iron it onto the rod. Now take a Sharpie and drag a line down the top, use the edge of the tape overlap to be really precise.

Now start the rod into the bore and when the line on the rod lines up with something on the action, mark it....... run it in til it comes back around to the index again and mark it.


Measure between the marks.


al
 
I had a Ruger 6ppc varmit that did the same thing with Hornady SXSP. I could shoot bergers or sierra's with no problem. Inside the muzzle looked very bad (reamer marks on top of the lands). I kept cutting the muzzle back until it looked better and the problem went away. I guess it was the thin jacket and rough lands. I talked to a lot of older varmit shooters at that time and they all said the only time they had key hole problems was with thin explosive bullets when the twist was right.

Hovis
 
I've been hearing alot of problems with the heavier vg bullets not stabilizing in factory twist rates due to their length
 
Republic of Crazyfornia bullets

It takes a 9 twist to stabilize that bullet. Call the manufacture for recommendations. Made for the no lead varmint zones in California. Do a search on the varmint boards for recommendations.
BV
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Brian Voelker said:
It takes a 9 twist to stabilize that bullet. Call the manufacture for recommendations. Made for the no lead varmint zones in California. Do a search on the varmint boards for recommendations.
BV
Click to expand...



If that is the case, does it mean these bullets are OK to shoot condors with?

Barnes should have called these bullets "Condors".:D
 
Ackleyredmist said:
I've been hearing alot of problems with the heavier vg bullets not stabilizing in factory twist rates due to their length
Click to expand...


Just to clarify,

EVERY bullet company makes bullets which will not stabilize in factory twists..... this is not a "problem," it's just misuse of fine products.

The real "problem" is that people get into reloading without taking the time to educate themselves. Ignorance often creates "problems."


In ANY endeavor :)

al
 
Brian Voelker said:
It takes a 9 twist to stabilize that bullet. Call the manufacture for recommendations. Made for the no lead varmint zones in California. Do a search on the varmint boards for recommendations.
BV
Click to expand...
Yep, right on the money.

I just loaded several hundred 36 gr VG's. They are almost exactly the same length as my Berger 55 gr bullets. Barnes recommends a faster twist with the 50 gr VG's but 1:14 is godd with the 36gr's

Wish those dang Condors would drink the Kool-aid and disappear so we can get back to the relatively less expensive led core stuff.
 
I shoot the 50 gr. in a 223 with 1:7 twist and they shoot great. They are close to the same size as nosler 80 gr. bullets but the 50 gr. VG has a larger contact area then the 80 gr. nosler.
 
Thank you for replys

I guess I will buy some 36gr varmint grenades. My rifle does stabilize 52gr sierra's so it must be the length of the vg's.
 
Al, i greatly apologize for my horrible misuse of the word problem. i guess i should have said i've read and heard of many people having an ISSUE with them. i guess many people buy them seeing them as a 50gr varmint bullet and not thinking about the twist, being used to 50gr bullets. there's no reason to bash them for it or call them ignorant. the idea behind these forums is to help people out, not beat them up for things they dont know, maybe they're new to reloading
 
Does Barnes mention that a 1 in 9 twist is generally needed to stabilize the 50's on the bullet label. Sierra and Hornady both label their longer bullets as requiring faster twist barrels.

Last week I was in a local store and one of the guys from the gun department was telling a guy that a 1 in 14" was faster than a 1 in 10" twist because the 1 in 14 would turn a bullet 14 times while the 1 in 10 would only turn it 10 times. :eek: I nearly opened my mouth and said something, but they walked off before I could. The level of general expertise is sort of amazing to me. :rolleyes:
 
Ackleyredmist said:
....... "there's no reason to bash them for it or call them ignorant." .....
Click to expand...


Here's part of the problem, "bashing them for it" and "calling them ignorant" are two entirely different concepts. "Bashing" someone is like hitting them in the face, it's violent rude and wrong for nearly any circumstance. "Calling them ignorant" is YOUR turn of my phrase.... and even then calling someone ignorant is generally just a statement of fact, it's not negative in any way.


I'm IGNORANT on the subject of cooking with a wok. So what? If I stepped out and started "wok cooking" I'd screw up a lot of meals... again SO WHAT?... it's part of the learning curve.


Ignorance is just lack of knowledge..... why does the average American male equate a lack of knowledge with "bashing" or other negativity? Well, we all know why but hey, let's GET OVER IT eh?

Education is the answer.

al
 
Last week I was in a local store and one of the guys from the gun department was telling a guy that a 1 in 14" was faster than a 1 in 10" twist because the 1 in 14 would turn a bullet 14 times while the 1 in 10 would only turn it 10 times. I nearly opened my mouth and said something, but they walked off before I could. The level of general expertise is sort of amazing to me.


WAS THIS IN A BIG GUN STORE LIKE CABELAS BY ANY CHANCE? THATS THE STUFF I HEAR IN THE ONE BY ME, I GET A GOOD GIGGLE OUT OF IT. BUT IT SCARES THE HECK OUT OF ME CAUSE THE SAME PEOPLE HELP PEOPLE WITH RELOADING QUESTIONS:confused:
 
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