Two Different Camps

G

Gene Beggs

Active member
Tuners promise to be the "Next Big Thing" and it is understandable why they have generated so much discussion here on the forum.

In all of this, two distinctly different groups have emerged, whose views are diametrically opposed;

1. Those who suggest that a LARGE amount of weight be added BEYOND the crown in order to completely stop the muzzle. This group holds that once the proper weight is established, no adjustments are necessary.

2. Those of us who regard a tuner as a 'focus ring' consisting of a SMALL amount of weight placed BEHIND the crown that is easily adjustable fore and aft to compensate for changes in atmospheric conditions.

"So,, which of these is correct?" you ask.

The truth is, both are correct. Each method is uniquely suited for a specific purpose. Everything is a compromise and whether one method is better than the other, depends on the application. If one is not restricted by weight and balance, method number one would be preferred because once the correct weight is determined, no adjustments are necessary. This assumes, of course, that acceptable accuracy is achieved. In one sense of the word, method one is somewhat like having a camera with a fixed focus; a compromise rather than an adjustable focus, which enables the photographer to obtain a razor sharp image.

It has been my experience that when experts strongly disagree, it is often because they are talking about two distinctly different things. I believe that is the case with this tuner debate. Calfee and his camp are talking about heavy, fixed, counterweights, while I am talking about lightweight, adjustable, focus rings.

Later,,

Gene Beggs
 
There's a third in this punch bowl !

A third "camp" sits smugly on the sideline in the belief that best to worst, the tuner is such a small factor in the equation that the benefit is lost in the noise - a distraction of sorts...

This camp can dissolve in seconds for about 200 bucks each worst case. When enough rifles are equipped with tuners to begin winning an appreciable number of aggs, the snowball will grow.

Recent testing has indicated that neck turning may not be required. If that pans out, one could conclude that it was never necessary. How many of us own neck turners? Yeah, I know the brass is better these days....I'm just sayin'.....
 
Gene Beggs

I don't see two different camps I see two different designs.I am not on either side of the equation except that one of the parties seems to have an extremely long and unmatched track record in building record setting guns for a myriad of shooters.

The other side as you call it have built a tuner or two that works well on there gun in the last 2 years.

I don't care who is right or wrong and I don't care what science has to say about it.I do however want to know which way is more accurate?

I don't want Tony Boyer wrapping a buble gum wrapper on his muzzle and winning a match as proof that it works.I also don't want a 75 year old man who has never shot a competitive agg given a tuner and told if you don't win the super shoot this year your tuner design is invalid.

A rational answer I feel is coming as Bill Calfee has given us everything we need to build his tuner design.

We are also fortunate that you have given us your premise as to why your design should work.

It is winter now and for most people that means no shooting.Come this summer I think the answer to the question will be obvious.
Lynn
 
It seems as though the 'set it and forget it' guys, like DJ and Harry, seem to think it works, and they have won everything there is to win in the rimfire game.
 
3rd Camp???

What about Jackie and Gene Bukys "snubber" type tuners.

Seems like the snubber has a little of both previously mentioned
designs built into it and the addition of "rubber" for its vibration
dampening qualities.

Any opinions out there on snubber tuners?

Is this a 3rd camp???
 
"Looking for love in all the wrong places"

Lynn

Within your words lies a solution to the perceived dilemma. The "long and unmatched track record in building record setting guns for a myriad of shooters" thing you wrote - THERE IT IS! HIDDEN IN PLAIN SIGHT!.

Ask yourself - how many rifles that compete with these record setting rifles have tuners? When you realize that it's 100% of them, surely you can see that it ain't the tuner.
 
4th, 5th and maybe sixth

I've sat down beside shooters that have use O-Ring distributed along their barrels, and others with Magnetic Tape wrapped in several locations and then those that uses adjustable humps in the barrel channel. All seemed to do their job on occasion's. So who's right?

PS. On one of my rifles, I use a strip of truck inner-tube, located strategically in the barrel channel.
 
Wilbur said:
A third "camp" sits smugly on the sideline in the belief that best to worst, the tuner is such a small factor in the equation that the benefit is lost in the noise - a distraction of sorts...

Wilbur, I like your style. :D

You said, "The tuner is such a small factor in the equation that the benefit is lost in the noise - a distraction of sorts..."

At one time I would have agreed with you, but now, all I got to say 'bout that is, "Hide and watch!" ;) :D

Gene Beggs
Click to expand...
 
Boy,
I seem to recall similar arguments for moly bullets. Only time will tell.
 
Lynn said:
"I don't see two different camps, I see two different designs. I am not on either side of the equation except that one of the parties seems to have an extremely long and unmatched track record in building record setting guns for a myriad of shooters."

"The other side as you call it have built a tuner or two that works well on there gun in the last 2 years."


Lynn, although you have heard of me only in recent times, I have been involved in benchrest for over twenty years. My education in all this has been ongoing for a long time. What I have related to you and others on this forum, I did not learn overnight. Your statement above suggests to me that you regard me as someone who has only in the past couple of years, built a 'tuner or two' :rolleyes: and now thinks he is an expert. I assure you, that is not the case.

I remind you that although Mr. Calfee enjoys an unmatched track record in building record-setting rimfire rifles, I have never seen a centerfire record-setting rifle built by him. Your objections notwithstanding, I still believe that we are talking about two different things.

Although I have not yet achieved world-class, Hall of Fame status, I have earned two of the ten points required for induction into the HOF. These two points were earned at the NBRSA Nationals in Phoenix in 2003 for the Heavy Varmint Grand. I am not usually one to toot my own horn, but, as they say, "This ain't my first rodeo. ;) :D

Gene Beggs
Click to expand...
 
Standing on the sideline

It amazes a largely open range shooter like myself that there is so much being said about something that might result in such a minute return, except that of course, in point blank shooting, winning is measured in thousanths of an inch. Maybe I'm lucky that, shooting at big black or largish blue targets, results are much more demonstrable.

For a decade or more now, many Aussie target rifle (Palma) shooters have tuned their barrels by judiciously relocating their foresights. I've watched on many occasions groups stringing vertical, to tight circular & out to horizontally stringing as the foresight was incremented.

It's probably no surprise, then, that our locally built tuners that we use on Target-rifle-derived F Class & 1200 yard match rifle barrels in the 30-34 inch range approximate the 2 ounce weight of the average target rifle foresight. Like the US back of crown designs, many of ours consist of two jamming round nuts, although there is a school that uses a single piece design held by a grub screw with a shot under it. Some have the barrel threaded specifically for the job, but many use a prethreaded sleeve that's loctited onto the barrel using the same diameter .8" cylinder as our usual target rifle bases. makes it a little easier when swapping barrels.

I'm a reasonably successful match rifle shooter & recently won a match shooting groups with abysmal vertical spread by good luck & I guess good judgement. This stringing surprised me, as in my two recent ventures out, the group was tight. In any case, I recalibrated the rifle the next week at 1000 yards off the bags & in two adjustments of the tuner, brought the group vertical back from 20" to 10 & finally 6" - 15 shots on each occasion. I reckon that's not bad for 210 Bergers & SMKs coming off a .308 W case at a touch under 2700 fps.

Gene, I'm still absorbing your theory, but there seems to be a deal of correlation between what you claim & my experience. Both earlier shoots had been at around 1000 feet elevation & the latter at 75 feet.

I must look at the possibilities further.
 
It's interesting -

One would think that if atmosphere is an issue with tune, it would be the same, no matter which tuner was used, wouldn't one? Hummmmm
 
Gene Beggs And Wilbur

Gene
I was not picking on your credentials just pointing out that Bill Calfee rifles shoot extremely well.

Wilbur
I was ready to 100% agree with your rest of the field uses them thought.I then thought to myself that maybe now that Mr Calfee has showed us what to look for that his guns would win only some of the time now.His rifles may not dominate now that the rest of the field knows how to tune one.
Lynn
 
Ohhh, I dunno', Bill's still got a few tricks up his sleeve :D


So far ever'buddy still thinks he's 'way out to lunch regarding firing pin position and ignition characteristics.................there's another ten years.......:)


lol



al
 
Wilbur said
"This camp can dissolve in seconds for about 200 bucks each worst case. When enough rifles are equipped with tuners to begin winning an appreciable number of aggs, the snowball will grow."
It could be that if we replaced the word tuner with moly or 30 BR or 6mm Beggs, the phrase could also be true.
The comparison of the rimfire experience of set and forget taken to be also possible with a centrefire i find questionable. With the same batch of ammo, a rimfire can sustain a single setting for a long time and even other types of ammo with slight variance in velocity can work well, even though my own experiences shown a better "tune" can be found with that other ammo. The rimfire requires a great number of rounds to show an appreciable amount of wear to the throat and bore. A centrefire does not have this luxury and the throat and bore change in a short time. That being the case, the pressure time curve must alter, slightly, as the barrel wears, and the barrel may have the same "ring" for its entire life, but if the bullet is leaving at a different time frame as to when it was when new, how can a true tuner not need to be moved?
If the muzzle is "dead" or stopped as you put it, then the set and forget theory holds. But doesn't that transform the tuner to the realms of a dampner which requires a whole different thought process?
The above scenario of the long range guy tuning his 308 to wring out the vertical would seem to me to indicate that he experienced some sort of change to his pressure time curve, would we agree?
The season ahead for you guys will undoubtedly bring about a lot of change on the thought process of tuners, mine included.
I will stay "tuned".

Tony Z.
 
I've tried it...

A couple of years ago I got two barrels for one of my LV guns that were in the same contour as Bill Calfee's rimfire barrels. They were both chambered for .22 Short PPC by Dwight Scott. I bought a big tuner from Ron Hoehn that weighed 8 oz. and which had an 8 oz. attachment for same just in case the 8 oz. tuner wasn't heavy enough.

These barrels had the normal 1.150" dia. chamber slug but there was a step about 2" in front of the action that took the diameter down to about .840". The barrels were .840" the rest of the way to the muzzle. This contour is just like the barrel on my Calfee built rimfire benchrest gun. (which shoots like crazy.)

The test was a disaster. Accuracy was terrible. The first barrel should never have left the guy's shop. It shot about 1" groups. The second was a decent barrel but the skinny contour and the fat tuner still wouldn't come close to my normal set-up. I think the firing of a centerfire BR cartridge is way too violent for the skinny rimfire contour barrels, no matter the tuner.

In centerfire BR I normally use a standard contour LV barrel with one of Dwight Scott's tuners which weigh about 5 oz. These work great, exactly like a tuner should.

I've got both rimfire-contour centerfire barrels just setting here. Neither one has more than 100 rounds thru it.
 
Dick Wright said:
A couple of years ago I got two barrels for one of my LV guns that were in the same contour as Bill Calfee's rimfire barrels. They were both chambered for .22 Short PPC by Dwight Scott. I bought a big tuner from Ron Hoehn that weighed 8 oz. and which had an 8 oz. attachment for same just in case the 8 oz. tuner wasn't heavy enough.
.
Click to expand...
Dick, on the Hoehn/Harrell tuner did you lock it down or just leave the spring and ball detent to hold the outer sleeve in place. Those tuners, really good for rimfire, are much too loose and "rattly" for centerfire unless you lock them down after each adjustment?
 
Dick,I have a LV barrel that is made by Benchmark,Its a 3 groove,I put it on my Rifle & tested it at 200 yds,to get a baseline before the contouring & tuner .it would agg around .300 in fair conditions & i did not really play with the load. I contoured the barrel down to.900 straight,But still maintained the straight 1.2500 at the action,I could not get the barrel to tune without adding to much weight ,so i turned it close to your dimensions,I then threaded the tuner onto the barrel & started ringing the barrel until the dull node was out on the tuner adapter.The tuner is Stainless & weighs 13 ounces total,With 9 ounces of it moveable,I shot the rifle yesterday at 200yds ,I moved the tuner out 3 turns with no change in POI,so i moved it back 2 turns & locked it. The barrel averaged .251 for21 shots ,all 3 shot groups,Best was .132,Worst was .335 I used 28 of 133 with Barts 68 .010 into the leade,This is a mild load,But the extreme spread is very good,The weather was 38 degrees & winds out of the SW at 10,I will say that you do not have your barrel tuned or its no good to start with.I am going out on saturday with The HV barrel & start on it. BILL
 
Hi Bill ....

Question .... when you said "out on the tuner adapter" .... where exactly is that? Is that where the weight that turns and moves in and out starts? Or someplace else? :confused:

Thanks .... Fred
 
Fred,The tuner consists of 2 parts,The Adapter,That threads onto the Barrel & the Body,The moveable section,Do not try to ring the moveable section,you will get unrepeatable results. BILL
 
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