Tuners some info.

Just some reference info on the effects of the air in the barrel. I read this article at the time, but cannot find a link to it on the web. So if someone has back issues....

August 1996 issue of Guns and Ammo "The Thirty-Foot Barrel" by Bob Forker. Mr. Forker and Bob Clerke wanted to know how long a barrel had to be before velocity dropped to zero. They chose .32 caliber because they had access to 40,000 inches of .32 rifled tubing.
Click to expand...
 
Vibe and mks, I guess the thing that gets to me is we have really seen nada from you as to why rifles get out of tune and how to fix it. It is always negative post in a manner that makes it look like you are superior to the raggedy ass masses. Maybe you don't feel that way, but it comes off that way. You keep saying he is wrong because it doesn't agree with how you interpret the laws of physics.
Give us some answers instead of sitting over there looking to jump on Gene and others.
If I perceive it different than you think, I'm sorry. I am not the only one that sees it as I do.
Butch
 
Sorry guys

Pacecil, Keith, et al,,

Please forgive me for being such a grump and for taking offense when you have questioned me about something. :eek:

Well educated, smart individuals like you serve to keep the rest of us honest and protect our readers from con men and BS'ers. I promise that in the future, I will remain civil and answer your questions to the best of my knowledge and ability. :) If I say something that is wrong or do not make myself clear, call me out on it and I'll do my best to explain. :)

And I mean it when I say, "I love being proven wrong." I want to know the truth! :eek:

My wife once said to me, "You're not always right! :mad:" And you know what? She's right. :eek:

BTW, Keith sent me the nicest e-mail today; I'm so happy to make his acquaintance and learn more about him. :) Pacecil, I hope you will do the same. Please. :eek:

I can understand why some of you wish to remain anonymous and I will be more respectful of that in the future. :)

Now,, let's get back to work and figure this stuff out! What do you say? :D

Later,

Gene Beggs
 
Gene Beggs said:
Now,, let's get back to work and figure this stuff out! What do you say? :D
Click to expand...

For the record, I am a big fan of Gene, for all he has accomplished, his original thinking, the gadgets he has dreamed up and, maybe most important, his good nature as shown here.
 
At the risk of insulting somebody, being a lousy shooter, and just in general being a bad person, I'm going to just add a little more info in to this thread. I'm not saying Gene or others are wrong, and I'm not saying tuners do or don't work. I'm not suggesting how you tune a gun or anything else. I'm just giving some info.

The approximate average pressure acting on the bullet when you push the air out ahead of it is this:
52 psi at normal temperature and pressure.
If you raise atmos. pressure by .3 psi it will require about 56 psi to push the air out. (an 8% increase)
If you increase temp. by 50F it will take about 49 psi to push the air out. (a 6% decrease)

Do what you want with these numbers. Remember they are approximate.
 
Butch Lambert said:
Vibe and mks, I guess the thing that gets to me is we have really seen nada from you as to why rifles get out of tune and how to fix it. It is always negative post in a manner that makes it look like you are superior to the raggedy ass masses. Maybe you don't feel that way, but it comes off that way. You keep saying he is wrong because it doesn't agree with how you interpret the laws of physics.
Give us some answers instead of sitting over there looking to jump on Gene and others.
If I perceive it different than you think, I'm sorry. I am not the only one that sees it as I do.
Butch
Click to expand...

Butch,

No offense, but I hope it’s you in the minority regarding the contributions make by MKS & Vibe and I can honestly say I don’t specifically ever remember either one of them attempting to convey the impression of superiority or “jump” on anyone.

Personally, I’ve found their thoughts and technical expertise invaluable and I know for a fact that many others do too.

Landy
 
I don't think

anyone disrespects other's knowledge or ability to figure things out either from native tallent or education. What I personally find objectionable is the presentation often of some folks and what appears to be their lording their knowledge and education over those less educated or sophisicated.

Who ever liked he smarest person in class who used it to make the rest look bad. It's all about presentation. It is just as easy to be kind and helpful as it is to try to be superior. IMHO
 
Gene

Have you found that 22, 6mm, and 30 caliber chamberings show the same amount of tune variation under the same atmospheric pressure or temperature changes? For example, does your tuner need to be adjusted the same amount for a 220 Beggs as with a 30BR with a 10 degree rise in temperature? I was curious if the bore diameter affects tune.

Thanks
Tony

PS Have you tried the new XBR 8208 in the 220 Beggs?
 
Maybe this will help, always said I'd try. As I remember even years ago when tuners were just something most just thought about, name's like Lowell Amand, and Alan Eveler were using them for 1000 yard competition. They told me that every time you change primers or powder, bullets, whatever, you had to change the position of the tuner. And my thoughts from trying one are that not all rifles are vibration sensitive. When I tried it on my wife's rifle it did nothing like it did with mine. So don't expect it to turn a screamer into a lazzer gun, it's not going to happen. Be thankful for a little improvement.;)

Joe Salt
 
I forgot thank you Gene For helping the sport your the reason I pushed so hard to get tuners back in 1000 yard shooting. I new they would help the Guy's that couldn't afford a new barrel every year.:)

Joe Salt
 
Tony C said:
Gene

Have you found that 22, 6mm, and 30 caliber chamberings show the same amount of tune variation under the same atmospheric pressure or temperature changes? For example, does your tuner need to be adjusted the same amount for a 220 Beggs as with a 30BR with a 10 degree rise in temperature? I was curious if the bore diameter affects tune.

Thanks
Tony

PS Have you tried the new XBR 8208 in the 220 Beggs?
Click to expand...



Tony, my experience with the tuner has been mostly with the 6 Beggs and 6 PPC cartridges with a limited amount of shooting with the 220 Beggs. Several others have used it on 30 calibers but I personally have not because I don't own a thirty.

I cannot state with certainty that bore diameter has no affect on tune, so I won't say one way or the other.

No, I have not tried the new XBR powder in the 220 Beggs but I'm looking forward to doing so. It should be perfect.

Gene Beggs
 
Husker 7m8,
The problem that I have is kinda like Pete Wass post. All I get is no that is not right because 1+1 doesn't = 2. What I want to hear is this, what do we need to do about the rifle going out of tune because of this law, property of physics, or whatever say you are wrong. Regardless if Gene is right or wrong his results are showing up on paper.
I know that any constructive thing is welcomed. I probably came out a little harsh and I apologize.
Butch
 
The bbl on my 30BR came with one of Hal's tuners. It seemed to shoot better with the tuner than without even though I haven't had the opportunity to really do any serious testing. I did try a few tweaks at the rifles first match back in October, nothing really conclusive although I did leave it at the last setting I got to try. At Riverbend's group match last Sat the rifle was really doing the business. Unfortunately the shooter was not doing the biz.
 
Nice

Guys, it's nice to have the air cleared; isn't it?:) I think we have all benefited from what has been said; I know I have. :) This discussion has dominated my thought processes for days and I must excuse myself for a while and get back to work. :eek:

In recent times we have made a lot of progress in extreme rifle accuracy and I believe we are turning stones that have never been touched.

I have gone back and carefully reviewed my posts and cleaned up some of it, especially anything that might be taken out of context or regarded as offensive.

The case I have presented about tuners and how I believe they work is about the best I can do at this time. I realize there are those who disagree with me and that's fine; I certainly don't know it all.

Some believe it is the temperature of the barrel and ammunition that causes our rifles to go out of tune and I respect their views but I'm quite certain that I am right about everything I have said. If it was temperature of the barrel, we would never see the aggs that some are shooting today.

The adjustments to my tuner are reliable and repeatable. There is even a formula that works throughout the day. If the rifle is perfectly in tune in the morning when temperature is let's say, 50 degrees, the shooter must turn the tuner 'in' (toward the breech) an eighth of a turn for each 5 degree increase in temperature. This is not theory or speculation; it's fact. I and many others have proven it again and again at ranges all over the country.

At one time, I was placing a lot of emphasis on density altitude and although that is actually what it's all about, it seemed to cause a lot of confusion among those who have no flying experience. Since ambient air temperature is primarily responsible for changes in air density, I now refer only to temperature. It keeps things much simpler. ;) :D Everyone is familiar with air temperature and knows how to read a thermometer. :)

Some are hung up on relative humidity which has very little to do with rifle tune. Relative humidity is just that; a relative number which refers to how much moisture the air can actually hold at that specific temperature. As air temperature goes up, relative humidity goes down even though there has been no change in the actual amount of moisture in the air.

Later

Gene Beggs
 
Gene.
One question keeps nagging at me - and it's probably been covered and I just missed it some where.
You say that your rifle is never more than 1/2 a turn out of tune, and I can understand that. And if it is in tune - one full revolution and it's back in tune. I can more or less follow that. But if you turn it exactly 10 turns is it still in? 100? 1000? - where exactly are the edges to this envelope. Is the tuning "window" wider or more stable in the center of this range?

There is even a formula that works throughout the day. If the rifle is perfectly in tune in the morning when temperature is let's say, 50 degrees, the shooter must turn the tuner 'in' (toward the breech) an eighth of a turn for each 5 degree increase in temperature. This is not theory or speculation; it's fact. I and many others have proven it again and again at ranges all over the country.
Click to expand...
Sounds good. But 8x5°=40° and is one full revolution of the tuner, so if you last shot it in 50° temps and the next match is at a range that is seeing 90° does this mean that it should be in tune again?

Of course all of this depends on consistent ammo - so the point about having to change the tuner setting with a change in primer, powder or other component makes perfect sense to me. the MV might very well be the same but the actual time in barrel might very well be different due to a different acceleration curve, resulting in a different time of exit relative to the harmonics behavior.
 
Gene...Vibration of a barrel is influenced by the distance from the node out to the c. of g. of the weight of barrel swinging about this node, plus the weight of the tuner, pivoting about this node. In other words this weight of barrel and tuner creates a moment about the node. The moment is simply the weight multiplied by the distance from the node. It's these distances or lengths of barrel that are increased by a temperature rise. Of course a temperature rise in air means also a temperature rise in barrel.

So, your finding that the tuner must be moved in slightly to accommodate a rise in air (and barrel) temperature makes sense. You are simply keeping the moment about the node the same. Unless you use an extremely fine thread on the tuner I'm having trouble making the numbers work out but the principle makes sense to me. What may be happening is that as air temperature rises there is a slightly higher rise in barrel temperature because of lower heat transfer to the warmer air.

I suggest this may be the mechanism that controls this "tuning" of a barrel rather than the properties of the air ahead of the bullet.
 
Vibe said:
Gene.
One question keeps nagging at me - and it's probably been covered and I just missed it some where.
You say that your rifle is never more than 1/2 a turn out of tune, and I can understand that. And if it is in tune - one full revolution and it's back in tune. I can more or less follow that. But if you turn it exactly 10 turns is it still in? 100? 1000? - where exactly are the edges of the envelope? Is the tuning "window" wider or more stable in the center of this range?


Sounds good. But 8x5°=40° and is one full revolution of the tuner, so if you last shot it in 50° temps and the next match is at a range that is seeing 90° does this mean that it should be in tune again?

Of course all of this depends on consistent ammo - so the point about having to change the tuner setting with a change in primer, powder or other component makes perfect sense to me. the MV might very well be the same but the actual time in barrel might very well be different due to a different acceleration curve, resulting in a different time of exit relative to the harmonics behavior.
Click to expand...




Vibe, it sounds like you understand it all very well. :)

You asked,

"Gene, one question keeps nagging at me - ,,,,if you turn it exactly 10 turns is it still in tune? 100? 1000? - where exactly are the edges of the envelope? Is the tuning window wider or more stable in the center of the range?"


10? 100? 1000? In theory, it should be but in a practical application in the real world I wouldn't bet on it. My tuner is .500 inch in width and I only thread .750 of the muzzle which gives more than enough threads to make adjustments. Actually, you need only one revolution of threads but I like to have a little room to spare. I have used as little as .625 of threads but have settled on .750 as the standard.

When I go to the line for the first match of the day, I start with the tuner in the 'zero' position. By this I mean, screw the tuner all the way 'in' (toward the breech) then back it off until the reference mark is at 12:00 o'clock, then make one more revolution 'out' and lock it in place.

"But would it be okay if I backed the tuner out two turns, or maybe three?"

Yes that would be okay if you choose to do it that way.


"Where exactly are the edges of the envelope?"

The envelope is limited only by the threads, but you actually need only one revolution to tune the barrel any time, anywhere.

"Is the tuning window wider or more stable in the center of the range?" No.


Vibe, you also asked,

"Sounds good, but 8x5°=40° and is one full revolution of the tuner, so if you last shot it in 50° temps and the next match is at a range that is seeing 90° does this mean that it should be in tune again?"


In theory and assuming the two ranges are at the same altitude and barametric pressure is the same in both cases, yes; it should still be in tune, but in the real world things don't always work out that way, and I say, why worry about it? :rolleyes:

As I have said many times before, you need only one revolution of the tuner anytime, anywhere and you cannot be more than a half turn out of tune. Go to the line for the first match of the day with the tuner set to 'zero.' Follow the simple procedure I outlined earlier and when you have the rifle in tune, make a note of temp and tuner setting. Then, you will know where to place the tuner as temp increases throughout the day. The formula is, turn the tuner 'in' one eighth turn for each 5 degree increase in temp. I can't make it any simpler than that. :)

Some will probably ask,

"Will this work on all rifles? Will it work on my rimfire or 1000 yard rifle? How 'bout my 'thutty thutty'?

I don't know; try it and see like I did with the LV and Sporter rifles. :)

Hope this helps.

Gene Beggs
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top