Tuners some info.

Yes!

tim in tx said:
if you will let me ,and will drive to you to show you how these theories work that al and keith spoke of.i can bring the present barrel for a calibration standard and i can bring a brand new barrel [ intigrated tuner]and cut it back there and then .and you can shoot the gun.[6 dasher no brake].the intended result will be to see a bullet with one less grain of powder hitting .800 higher the normal load at 100 yds.that is how i would calibrate this new barrel for 1000yds and by that i am absolutly in tune for 1000yds only at all temps.i have not had to change a load from 58 to 103 degrees for the first time in my life and dont have to worry about es either .i know that sounds strange but it can be proven now.hope you can take me up on that offer sir.thanks tim in tx
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Hey Tim

You bet, come on out! :eek: :D I would love to have you as my guest. We will compare our experiences with tuners and have a lot of fun. Lookin' forward to it.

I can be reached at genebeggs@cableone.net

My cell phone is 432-631-5124

Gene Beggs
 
Hal D. said:
I was giggling as I hit the submit button, as I felt we have been a little "tuner deficient" lately on the forum. Anyhow, I have my belief's about tuners and you have yours. Can't we all just get along???:D

I appreciate the invite to Texas, but I have a limited amount of time that I can be away. Between work and the match schedule, I don't have much spare time. Besides that, I prefer to do all my shooting in the "conditions" that I'll be faced with on match day. Matter of fact, I went all the way to the range today only to turn around and go home because of the complete lack of wind. I know, I know, your gonna say that testing should be done in a lab environment...I don't think so.

I believe that just about anything attached to the barrel can be used to "tune" it in one way or another. In my experience, a heavier tuner requires less adjustment than a lighter one. And you prove my point whenever you post about your tuners. You continue to point out that your always within a half a turn of being in tune. With my tuners, I've never been even close to a half turn out of tune. The farthest my tuners need adjusting is a quarter of a turn, to be in full on, competitive tune. Not only that, but I use 36 TPI instead of the 28TPI you use. As far as the beyond the muzzle comments...I have not had any kind of experience like you describe. You say that moving to the tuner creates large POI changes on the target??? You're talking to a guy that shoots his fair share of Score, Group and 600 yd matches. Group shooting is the ONLY discipline that a POI shift really doesn't mean all that much. I can assure you that a score shooter, as well as a LR shooter can't have major shifts in POI throughout the day. If a barrel is properly set up when chambering and crowning/threading, and the tuner is concentric, there will be no more a POI shift than there is when using your style tuner.

While I have made a few for a handful of shooters, I'm not in the market to make or sell tuners(its about as lucrative as making bullets). Allie and Lee Euber aren't that easy to impress, but they both own my tuners...
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Hal, of course we can get along! :D Those who know me well will tell you, I'm easy to talk to and have an open mind. When someone proves me wrong about something, I'm delighted! I want to know the truth and I realize that in many cases, my way is not the only way and sometimes, not even the best way. :eek:

I'm so sorry you do not have time to come out and shoot in the tunnel, but I understand. If you should ever have two or three days to spare, come on out. I would love to visit and shoot with you. In the meantime, we will just have to do the best we can with the written word here on the forum. :)

Hal, it has been my experience that when experts disagree, it is often because they are talking about two different things; I think that is the case with you and me. You are talking about beyond the muzzle and I'm talking about behind the muzzle tuners. Right?

Hal,, in your post above, you said, " I have my belief's about tuners and you have yours."

Yes that's true, but would you mind explaining to me how you believe beyond-the-muzzle tuners work? Bill Calfee was never able to explain it to my satisfaction. :rolleyes:

I experimented with beyond-the-muzzle tuners but found them impractical for 10.5 pound LV and Sporter category rifles.

Keep talking; I and many others are listening with great interest! :D

Later,

Gene Beggs
 
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I would suppose that for the most part you could call this marketing ----


Please correct me if I'm wrong????

Paul
 
one more thing

who has won anything with a Beggs tuner ????

again I begg to be corected???

pun intended'


Paul
 
I don't know if this will be worth anything but

I have 6 tuners now and am currently using 4 of them on different barrels. My VFS rifle has a HV taper barrel and a 4oz tuner on it and I can tune the barrel just fine with it.

Another barrel, an HBR barrel has a 6 oz tuner which hangs about half of it's length over the barrel.This tuner is very sensaive to the amount it can be moved.

I have a 4oz tuner on an HBR barrel and have been able to tune that barrel with it while using the 1/4 turns as perscribed by Gene.


The fourth tuner weighs 3oz and I was not able to tune the barrel it is on with it. I had an ounce added. I gave it a second try and am able to tune that barrel with it now but can only turn the tuner very small amounts to tune the barrel. I will soon try to make it tune @ 3oz by making small movement.

I have a couple of Gene's tuners but haven't been able to get them installed yet.

My take is each barrel seems to act differntly. While one HBR barrel will tune with gross movements of 4oz the others I tried 4oz on would not. They seem to be more sensative to the amount of movement.

Perhaps the contour of barels has a lot to do with how tuners work. I believe I do see that more weight adds sensativity. Of course my testing is not copious or scientific. It is comforting to know that I have a good shot at bringing my rifles into tune if necessary.

I do know of instances where folks could see no difference with using a tuner. A problem is that one can wear out a barrel testing. What good is that information if barrels respond differently?
 
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Perhaps if one was to determine what the lightest contour is that does not give up any accuracy at say 21.5 inches, and then standardize on that contour for all subsequent barrels, no matter who the maker is....I have several barrels, none of which are identical in contour and therefore stiffness. Can we hypothesize that stiffer barrels take more weight to tune? Also, tuner discussions pull in examples from disciplines that have weight limits that reduce the need for turners to be as light as possible to maintain rifle balance suitable for shooting free. In contrast, a sporter/LV gives much less latitude. What are the opinions/ experiences as to how light a barrel can be without accuracy loss?
 
PTucker said:
I would suppose that for the most part you could call this marketing ----


Please correct me if I'm wrong????

Paul
Click to expand...


Okay; you're wrong! How's that? :)

Paul, if I was trying to make money, I would be doing something else. I enjoy studying and discussing extreme rifle accuracy and freely share what I have learned with others. I have no ulterior motives with anything I say. I talk about my own tuner because that is the one I know the most about.

Gene Beggs
 
Well OK then

Well you did call me wrong,
but that dosen't make me wrong,
It still looks like marketing to me!!!!!

and again I ask who has, after at least a year, won anyting using your tuner ????

Paul
 
Aswered above

PTucker said:
Well you did call me wrong,
but that dosen't make me wrong,
It still looks like marketing to me!!!!!

and again I ask who has, after at least a year, won anyting using your tuner ????

Paul
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The Young Man from Michigan won the IBS Varmint Hunter Nationals at 100 and 200 yards last year in Iowa using one of Gene's tuners. He was AWSOME. It wouldn't hurt anything to ask him how he was able to keep his rifle in tune all day by using his tuner, if he will tell you:).

I think we are talking Fords adn Chevies wen it comes to tuners, weight = weight. It becomes a matter of how much to use of it, in my opinion

All one has to do is to look at where Rimire rifles have been able to go with the use of tuners to know with certainty that it is only a matter of time and not much more time to where one will either have and use some kind of tuner or be beaten by those who do.

I had the pleasure to have have been loaned two RF rifles at a match this winter both of wich would shoot three different lots of ammo into the same hole and I mean same bullet hole. I had a great RF bench rifle a number of years ago that was good but nothing like the rifles I used this winter. The RF sector has come a very long way with tuners in the past dozen years. It is absolutely intuative that CF rifles will go the same way. It all takes time.

If more of us worked together on this tuner thing it would progress a lot faster.
 
PTucker said:
Well you did call me wrong,
but that dosen't make me wrong,
It still looks like marketing to me!!!!!

and again I ask who has, after at least a year, won anyting using your tuner ????

Paul
Click to expand...


Paul, I can't provide you with a list of those who are using my tuner but as Pete Wass pointed out, Francis Becigneul and his son Paul have had great success with them.

At the Berger Cactus Classic points match last weekend in Phoenix, Larry Scharnhorst placed third in the two gun behind Jack Neary and Gene Bukys. I believe this is the third year Larry has been using my tuners and he is a several times member of the US Benchrest Team. Cecil Tucker uses my tuner along with Bryn Borras, Jan Sarras, Stu Harvey and many others that I can't think of right now. It's not like the Beggs tuner is just another useless gimick that will soon be discarded and forgotten; it REALLY works and works well.

When I discover a product, service or procedure that meets my standards, I like to share it with others. I'm sorry if you feel that my writing is nothing more than shameless advertising but that's your business. I'll let Wilbur and the moderators decide if I've crossed the line.

No hard feelings, I assure you. :)

Later,

Gene Beggs
 
MKS, i got the same calculations as you did.even just checked the indicater used to make sure it wasn't a .0001 all was good it was a .0005 b&s also allowed barrel to cool and barrel returned to zero so i'm confident with setup. this is real easy to do so i will double check when i get a chance. this kind of confuses me also as i have used the same formula for setting gages for years. i guess i need to really check this and double check some gage blocks that are out of tolerance then heat the same and see what we get. george
 
My Brother,

PTucker said:
who has won anything with a Beggs tuner ????

again I begg to be corected???

pun intended'


Paul
Click to expand...


Won the Long Range Varmint Nationals (200 and 300 yard competition) last year in Reno. There were several shooters using Mr. Beggs excellent product. They WORK!! There were also MANY any various types of tuners at the Cactus this year. You have been , as you spell it "corected".
 
to geo.urlich.....

MKS, i got the same calculations as you did.even just checked the indicater used to make sure it wasn't a .0001 all was good it was a .0005 b&s also allowed barrel to cool and barrel returned to zero so i'm confident with setup. this is real easy to do so i will double check when i get a chance. this kind of confuses me also as i have used the same formula for setting gages for years. i guess i need to really check this and double check some gage blocks that are out of tolerance then heat the same and see what we get. george

You should check the test setup! A 24 " barrel will grow in length about .007 when heated 50F. This is based on values of coef. of expansion used by thousands of people for hundreds of years, with great accuracy. Your .030 expansion is in error about 4X.

Worst thing is you have a bunch of benchresters using your numbers to account for all sorts of things happening to their guns and tuners!
 
Pacecil, as i said i'm pretty confident in numbers and set up.i have tools to measure down to .000006 and all have been calibrated can furnish calibration specs. if needed. like i said this is easy enough to do perhaps you should take a run at it.all i did was give findings and i also did calculations for expansion and got the same .007 numbers. as i said i will double check when i have more time. george
 
geo.ulrich said:
MKS, i got the same calculations as you did.even just checked the indicater used to make sure it wasn't a .0001 all was good it was a .0005 b&s also allowed barrel to cool and barrel returned to zero so i'm confident with setup. this is real easy to do so i will double check when i get a chance. this kind of confuses me also as i have used the same formula for setting gages for years. i guess i need to really check this and double check some gage blocks that are out of tolerance then heat the same and see what we get. george
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George,
I assure you, no offense intended. I am just confused and curious, too. The measurements and theory should agree. 0.030" is so large that you could cut a wood story stick to compare to the cold and hot barrel. 0.030" difference would be easily visible, whereas 0.007" wouldn't. This would be a low-tech reality check.

Cheers,
Keith
 
Mr. Tucker,
You don't know Gene Beggs as I do. He could be called one of my competitors. I sell the Aussie windflags and he sells windprobes. He sells a tuner as I do. Gene is one of the nicest guys that I know in shooting. I wanted one of his windprobes and was hoping that I could get him to bring them to a match in Seymour, Tx. Gene was not going to be able to shoot, but he drove 200 miles each way to deliver the probe. He didn't have time to stay and visit, but he brought them to me.
Mr. Tucker, that is just the way Gene is made up. He is very serious about accuracy and gives freely of what he knows. He works as hard at it as he did when he was both a World Champion stunt pilot and also a member of their Hall of Fame. Gene knows the same thing that I do about our products, they work and they help pay for our shooting habits.
Butch
 
mks said:
"I think if you could keep the temperature of the gun and ammo constant, tune would not change. Keith
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Keith, yours is a common misconception. Although temperature of the barrel and ammo have a small affect on tune, the main reason our rifles go out of tune is due to changes in the weight of the atmosphere. As air temp increases, weight of the atmosphere decreases and vice versa.

Atmospheric density is greatly affected by ambient air temperature. If you have your rifle perfectly in tune during the first match of the day when the temp is 50 degrees and you do nothing to compensate, the rifle will be completely out of tune when it reaches 70 degrees. :eek: Why? Let me explain.

Atmospheric pressure fills every open container; empty cans, bottles, etc., even our rifle barrels. Many do not consider this to be significant but remember that the weight of the atmosphere at sea level causes a column of mercury (and that stuff is heavy!) to rise 29.92 inches! :eek: The weight of the atmosphere charges the cylinders of a normally aspirated engine in an automobile and it also resists a bullet's acceleration down the bore. "Now, what does that have to do with shooting and my rifle?" :mad: you ask. Listen carefully, I'll explain. :)

When your rifle is sitting there on the bench ready to fire, the barrel is filled with ambient air pressure. The barrel is sealed at the breach by the bullet which acts like a piston in a long cylinder as it travels down the bore.There is a column of air in the barrel that the bullet must compress and push out against the weight of the atmosphere before it exits the muzzle. The heavier the atmosphere the more resistance the bullet encounters as it accelerates down the bore. If you have your rifle tuned perfectly when ambient temp is 50 degrees, the bullets are exiting the muzzle at precisely the right point in the muzzles cycle. If outside air temp increases to 70 degrees and you do nothing to compensate, the weight of the atmosphere decreases, the bullet encounters less resistance as it accelerates down the bore and exits before the muzzle comes to a complete stop.

Hope this is clear.

Later,

Gene Beggs
 
Kieth, i have been thinking about this for days and i agree it doesn't make sense to me either.when i retry this i will change setup and use a 24" block and get a zero from barrel to block stack. then take readings and sweep barrel keeping indicater on stack as to not allow any heat to transfer to beam.problem could also be in indicater sitting on barrel allowing indicater to heat up through the heat rising around it.also will try electronic amplifier if it has enough range instead. george
 
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