R
Roy Allain
Guest
You're absolutely correct pacecil. Not enough zeros. It should be .0015. My point exactly. Much ado about nothing.
Roy
Tuners some info.
- Thread starter geo.ulrich
- Start date
You're absolutely correct pacecil. Not enough zeros. It should be .0015. My point exactly. Much ado about nothing.
Roy
O
Octopus
Guest
Since 2004 I have not been active shooting matches but I have been shooting on our private range as much as possible. And I do try to keep up with what is going on with BR shooting by reading the post here on BR Central Forums. The information posted on this forum has been a big help to me. But, it is not the same as going and shooting at the matches. Being at and being on the line shooting at matches is necessary to keep oneself up to the higher performance levels.
The past few months Peter Wass visited and shot with me three weekends. What an eye opener this was! I had been reading about tuners but I did not have a clue as to just how well they worked. Nor did I understand how well developed and accurate the 30 BR Rifles were.
While he was here Peter helped me a lot with my shooting equipment.
I learned the following:
1. Peter shoots a lot better I shoot. Our matches were very one sided. I was whipped badly even when I made the rules and did the scoring.
2. Peter uses an RCBS Chargemaster to weight all of his charges. I am now using the RCBS Chargemaster. I can not throw charges with my powder measures as precise as the Chargemaster.
3. Peter sorts his bullets via the Ogive measurement. I have started doing this. I have seen the difference on the targets! Sorted bullets shoot better.
4. Peter uses tuners on his barrels. His tuners work like magic! Several times I saw him shoot a 3/4" group and the tune it to a single round hole with the barrel tuner. I have started working with tuners. Tuners are the better way to keep the barrel in tune.
5. Peter shoots 30 Cal for score matches. His 30 Cal rifles shoot though the wind equal or better than our 6 PPC. With the diameter advantage it is very difficult to be a 30 Cal in a score match. The 30 BR appears to be easier to keep in tune than my 6 PPC. It may be that Peter is just better at tuning than I am.
This is not complicated. The above five items are proven facts. I have seen very clearly that the tuners in the 3.5 to 5.5 oz weight range work on H.V. barrels. I can not explain how or why but they do work much better than tuning via powder change or via seating depth change.
Take the above and apply them and your groups will be smaller.
By the way, just prior to coming to Florida Peter said he was out to visit with Gene to get better informed about the tuners.
Gene, from what I saw your student, Peter, learned the lessons about the tuners.
The past few months Peter Wass visited and shot with me three weekends. What an eye opener this was! I had been reading about tuners but I did not have a clue as to just how well they worked. Nor did I understand how well developed and accurate the 30 BR Rifles were.
While he was here Peter helped me a lot with my shooting equipment.
I learned the following:
1. Peter shoots a lot better I shoot. Our matches were very one sided. I was whipped badly even when I made the rules and did the scoring.
2. Peter uses an RCBS Chargemaster to weight all of his charges. I am now using the RCBS Chargemaster. I can not throw charges with my powder measures as precise as the Chargemaster.
3. Peter sorts his bullets via the Ogive measurement. I have started doing this. I have seen the difference on the targets! Sorted bullets shoot better.
4. Peter uses tuners on his barrels. His tuners work like magic! Several times I saw him shoot a 3/4" group and the tune it to a single round hole with the barrel tuner. I have started working with tuners. Tuners are the better way to keep the barrel in tune.
5. Peter shoots 30 Cal for score matches. His 30 Cal rifles shoot though the wind equal or better than our 6 PPC. With the diameter advantage it is very difficult to be a 30 Cal in a score match. The 30 BR appears to be easier to keep in tune than my 6 PPC. It may be that Peter is just better at tuning than I am.
This is not complicated. The above five items are proven facts. I have seen very clearly that the tuners in the 3.5 to 5.5 oz weight range work on H.V. barrels. I can not explain how or why but they do work much better than tuning via powder change or via seating depth change.
Take the above and apply them and your groups will be smaller.
By the way, just prior to coming to Florida Peter said he was out to visit with Gene to get better informed about the tuners.
Gene, from what I saw your student, Peter, learned the lessons about the tuners.
Gene Beggs
Active member
A Good Report!
Thank you sir! You made my day.
My regards to Pete Wass.
Good shootin'
Gene Beggs
Thank you sir! You made my day.
My regards to Pete Wass.
Good shootin'
Gene Beggs
Pete Wass
Well-known member
This is very interesting:
I have been hanging with the RF guys some this winter and noticed that many of the rifled have a lot of added weight to their Harrels tuners.
I personally would perfer the weight be behind the muzzle simply because anything beyond the muzzle gets cruddy inside. I recently cleaned mine and I ended up haveing to practically polish some of the carbon out and after only about 50 rounds! Eventually they need to come off to be cleaned. Perhaps this is an unnecessary worry but with that particular tuner the sensativity to tune is touchy.
This tuner is on an HBR taper barrel so would I be correct in asuming that the tuner may be a bit too heavy for that barrel?
I have been hanging with the RF guys some this winter and noticed that many of the rifled have a lot of added weight to their Harrels tuners.
I personally would perfer the weight be behind the muzzle simply because anything beyond the muzzle gets cruddy inside. I recently cleaned mine and I ended up haveing to practically polish some of the carbon out and after only about 50 rounds! Eventually they need to come off to be cleaned. Perhaps this is an unnecessary worry but with that particular tuner the sensativity to tune is touchy.
This tuner is on an HBR taper barrel so would I be correct in asuming that the tuner may be a bit too heavy for that barrel?
Here's what one poster said.....Several times I saw him shoot a 3/4" group and then tune it to a single round hole with the barrel tuner.
Does this mean you always get one hole groups after you adjust the tuner, or does it mean you only get some one hole groups afterward? Seems to me if you were truly tuned, all groups after tuning would be one hole. (Of course, we throw out the big groups caused by wind, etc)
Maybe "truly tuned" means you just get more one hole groups then you would if you weren't really tuned.
When posters talk about their groups before and after tuning, are they talking about one group or are they talking about the average of several groups?
When I try to get an answer to these questions by asking for some numbers or test results, shooters seem to get very defensive - they "don't want to talk about it anymore!"
Here's some answers I bet everyone has seen in this forum: ("adjust" means changing weight ,or moving weight)
1) I adjust my tuner and don't see any effect.
2) I adjust my tuner once and never touch it again.
3) I adjust my tuner to change big groups to little ones.
4) I adjust my tuner to make good ammo better.
5) I adjust my tuner when air temp changes.
6) I adjust my tuner when D.A. changes.
7) I adjust to offset the effect of wind.
8) I adjust for a load change.
9) I adjust for a humidity change.
Why will no one tell just what measurements they make, and what those measurements were, while adjusting their tuner? Even if they don't actually measure. but just "eyeball", they could give some approximations. Maybe "3/4" and "one hole" is about as good as it's going to get!
Does this mean you always get one hole groups after you adjust the tuner, or does it mean you only get some one hole groups afterward? Seems to me if you were truly tuned, all groups after tuning would be one hole. (Of course, we throw out the big groups caused by wind, etc)
Maybe "truly tuned" means you just get more one hole groups then you would if you weren't really tuned.
When posters talk about their groups before and after tuning, are they talking about one group or are they talking about the average of several groups?
When I try to get an answer to these questions by asking for some numbers or test results, shooters seem to get very defensive - they "don't want to talk about it anymore!"
Here's some answers I bet everyone has seen in this forum: ("adjust" means changing weight ,or moving weight)
1) I adjust my tuner and don't see any effect.
2) I adjust my tuner once and never touch it again.
3) I adjust my tuner to change big groups to little ones.
4) I adjust my tuner to make good ammo better.
5) I adjust my tuner when air temp changes.
6) I adjust my tuner when D.A. changes.
7) I adjust to offset the effect of wind.
8) I adjust for a load change.
9) I adjust for a humidity change.
Why will no one tell just what measurements they make, and what those measurements were, while adjusting their tuner? Even if they don't actually measure. but just "eyeball", they could give some approximations. Maybe "3/4" and "one hole" is about as good as it's going to get!
I dunno for sure but...Truth is, I've given tuner weight a lot of thought over the last few years, and I've made them in weights from 3.5ozs to about 9ozs. This past weekend, I shot a couple 600 yd matches with an 8oz tuner that I made earlier in the week. All but one of the tuners I've made for my long range barrels have been heavier, because I crown them at a much longer length than with my short range barrels. Weight isn't much of a worry as I use one of my LV rifles and have to add about 5 lbs just to get it up to near IBS Light Gun weight. Anyhow, what I find with stiffer barrels is that they stay in tune for much longer than the less stiff barrels. The other thing that I've found is that once I get under 5ozs of tuner weight, changes are needed more often. I can't prove it, but I believe a less stiff barrel (notice I didn't say lighter) needs a heavier tuner to stay in tune longer, than does a stiffer barrel. The reason I didn't say lighter is that the barrel you mentioned is a Hunter taper, which is lighter than a LV barrel, but its also stiffer. I don't think the barrel weight has much of anything to do with tuner weight. I think barrel stiffness has EVERYTHING to do with tuner weight. While those long range barrels are certainly very heavy in comparison to a short range barrel, they are less stiff due to the extra 5 or so inches in length. The heavier tuners seem to keep them shooting for longer periods. I've definitely seen this same thing with my short range barrels. I keep all my short range tuners in the 5 to 6 ounce range, because that's where my LV rigs balance out best, and because that's what a 22" HV barrel seems to love.
As for the buildup of carbon in the tuner bore, I've found that very little buildup occurs, even after several aggs. The muzzle is a different story, but as long as you stay on top of it, it's a non-issue.
Boyd Allen
Active member
Paceil,
Put a tuner on a rifle, go shoot it. come back and tell us what you did and what happened. Be as specific as you like. Barrels have limited lives. Most of us have limited time and resources. Be glad you get what you get. Besides, what we are primarily trying to do here is to share information, and learn something from those who hav done the thing that is being discussed. If we don't give you what you want, maybe you should go do a little primary research, and enlighten us with your findings. I will be interested in what you have to report...should that happen.
Put a tuner on a rifle, go shoot it. come back and tell us what you did and what happened. Be as specific as you like. Barrels have limited lives. Most of us have limited time and resources. Be glad you get what you get. Besides, what we are primarily trying to do here is to share information, and learn something from those who hav done the thing that is being discussed. If we don't give you what you want, maybe you should go do a little primary research, and enlighten us with your findings. I will be interested in what you have to report...should that happen.
Boyd Allen, you made a reasonable request....
Put a tuner on a rifle, go shoot it. come back and tell us what you did and what happened.
When I made a similar request....
I want some numbers showing how much the average group size changes as you run your tests with tuners. Tell us how average size of a number of groups (not just a few groups!) changes with ambient conditions and tuner adjustments.
Here's the answer I got.....
Nah,, I don't think so. I've already wasted enough time with you. Don't bother directing more questions my way; this conversation is over.
Put a tuner on a rifle, go shoot it. come back and tell us what you did and what happened.
When I made a similar request....
I want some numbers showing how much the average group size changes as you run your tests with tuners. Tell us how average size of a number of groups (not just a few groups!) changes with ambient conditions and tuner adjustments.
Here's the answer I got.....
Nah,, I don't think so. I've already wasted enough time with you. Don't bother directing more questions my way; this conversation is over.
Boyd Allen
Active member
The fellow who gave you his final reply has done all of those things. He just got tired of hearing that you didn't like his answers, and to be truthful no one likes to be constantly criticized, especially by someone who gives no indication of having "played the game". Maybe leading by example (doing something and reporting on it in the manner that you would like it done by others) would be a better approach. Rocks are perfect, because they never do anything. The more we do, the more chances we take, the more mistakes we will make. Still, it is better to do something, the best that you can, than to do nothing for the sake of perfection. Go do something, and come back and tell us about it. Get in the game.
E
Edwin D
Guest
Boyd Allen,
AMEN!!
AMEN!!
Butch Lambert
Active member
Where else can you be offered free airline tickets and motel to prove your point? You did all this stuff on the rimfire forum also. It is time for you to put up or shut up! Go to the tunnel and prove Gene wrong with your experience and you will have credibility here, otherwise get back under your rock.
Butch
Butch
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Pacecil
In my 8 grain variation in powder charge one would expect to see a huge amount of vertical and I did.I then added enough weight to the end of my barrel and the two powder charges were now shooting into one tall hole.A powder charge in the middle of those two charges would not be in the group.
All we are doing is adding weight to remove the vertical out of our groups nothing more.A 8 grain variation in powder weight is huge but I mentioned it only to show you how much vertical can be removed from a group.
You can reliably remove 3/8 of an inch worth of vertical in my barrels using 11 ounces of tuner weight on a 1000 yard lightgun.With the 1.450 basrrels we use on our unlimited guns a 50 ounce tuner will do the same thing.
Your load is worked up so you have the least amount of vertical as is possible but on the next day or even later in that same day it is typical for your groups size to get bigger.In the heat of competition it is easier to twist a tuner than it is to go load more ammo going up and down in powder weight trying to find the best groups.You would simply give it a twist and shoot a couple sighters to see if it helped.If it didn't yopu simply go the other direction.
Waterboy aka Lynn
In my 8 grain variation in powder charge one would expect to see a huge amount of vertical and I did.I then added enough weight to the end of my barrel and the two powder charges were now shooting into one tall hole.A powder charge in the middle of those two charges would not be in the group.
All we are doing is adding weight to remove the vertical out of our groups nothing more.A 8 grain variation in powder weight is huge but I mentioned it only to show you how much vertical can be removed from a group.
You can reliably remove 3/8 of an inch worth of vertical in my barrels using 11 ounces of tuner weight on a 1000 yard lightgun.With the 1.450 basrrels we use on our unlimited guns a 50 ounce tuner will do the same thing.
Your load is worked up so you have the least amount of vertical as is possible but on the next day or even later in that same day it is typical for your groups size to get bigger.In the heat of competition it is easier to twist a tuner than it is to go load more ammo going up and down in powder weight trying to find the best groups.You would simply give it a twist and shoot a couple sighters to see if it helped.If it didn't yopu simply go the other direction.
Waterboy aka Lynn
M
mks
Guest
Pete,
At the risk of adding to your torment, liquids CAN be compressed!
Cheers,
Keith
M
mks
Guest
Lynn,
I am curious, why are you using loads with 8 gr variation? Was this just a test, or do you regularly use both in competition?
Does a bullet with the middle powder charge strike the target high or low compared to the others?
Thanks,
Keith
Bob Kingsbury
New member
Is there anything that cannot be compressed ?
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
Diamonds!!
D
docsleepy
Guest
Gene:
I have a question about one of the things you wrote (I've read about half the thread) and I would be very grateful if you could tell me if I have it incorrectly.
In post #85 you wrote
Quote#1
"Expressed in terms of ambient temperature and again, assuming we do nothing to compensate, the rifle will go out of tune completely with an increase of 20 degrees F and come back into tune with another 20 degree increase."
That caught my eye, because I had been following a belief that TEN degrees put a rifle from full tune to out of tune, based on THIS quote from an article I got off a British shooting club's site, entitled "PPC Load Tuning Tips – by Gene Beggs" http://benchrest.netfirms.com/Standard Cartridges.htm
"If the rifle is in tune and shooting dots at 27 grains, it will begin to show vertical at 27.3 grains and will be completely out of tune at 27.6 grains...... Since temperature is the main reason for changes in DA you can accomplish the same thing by using only a thermometer. The ratio is .3 grains per five degrees F" [implying that 10 degrees would put the rifle off by 0.6 grains -- or fully out of tune based on the first sentence I quoted....]
Am I completely confused here? Is the difference between tune and out-of-tune 10 or is it 20 degrees? Quote #1 says 20, and if I am reading it correctly, Quote #2 implies 10! Or is it 1.2 grains to be out of tune, instead of 0.6?
The reason I ask is that the combination of (me and my rifle) are not yet accurate enough to be able to figure it out ourselves, but it would help me reduce ONE of my many errors if I knew roughly what to expect to change the load by for a 10 degree range. So I'm really asking a real question, not trying to give you a hard time or anything!
THANKS!
Gordon
I have a question about one of the things you wrote (I've read about half the thread) and I would be very grateful if you could tell me if I have it incorrectly.
In post #85 you wrote
Quote#1
"Expressed in terms of ambient temperature and again, assuming we do nothing to compensate, the rifle will go out of tune completely with an increase of 20 degrees F and come back into tune with another 20 degree increase."
That caught my eye, because I had been following a belief that TEN degrees put a rifle from full tune to out of tune, based on THIS quote from an article I got off a British shooting club's site, entitled "PPC Load Tuning Tips – by Gene Beggs" http://benchrest.netfirms.com/Standard Cartridges.htm
"If the rifle is in tune and shooting dots at 27 grains, it will begin to show vertical at 27.3 grains and will be completely out of tune at 27.6 grains...... Since temperature is the main reason for changes in DA you can accomplish the same thing by using only a thermometer. The ratio is .3 grains per five degrees F" [implying that 10 degrees would put the rifle off by 0.6 grains -- or fully out of tune based on the first sentence I quoted....]
Am I completely confused here? Is the difference between tune and out-of-tune 10 or is it 20 degrees? Quote #1 says 20, and if I am reading it correctly, Quote #2 implies 10! Or is it 1.2 grains to be out of tune, instead of 0.6?
The reason I ask is that the combination of (me and my rifle) are not yet accurate enough to be able to figure it out ourselves, but it would help me reduce ONE of my many errors if I knew roughly what to expect to change the load by for a 10 degree range. So I'm really asking a real question, not trying to give you a hard time or anything!
THANKS!
Gordon
M
mks
Guest
Bob,
I don't know, maybe neutrons and protons? But atoms are mostly vacant space and can be compressed. Since materials are made up of atoms, that means that all materials can be compressed. In liquids and solids, though, the atoms are closely packed and don't compress very easily. For instance, the water at the bottom of the ocean is compressed by only a few percent. In gases, the atoms are widely spaced, so gases are very compressible.
Cheers,
Keith
Butch Lambert
Active member
That is where CNG comes from.
Butch
Butch