The Great Score Target and Bullet Size Controversy

It is actually kind of simple.
Lets look at it from the group side of the coin.
I want to shoot a 30 br in group, but i want it to be "fair",
so we deduct 0.065 from all my groups to make it fair
since i am shooting a larger bullet.

If that does not seem reasonable to you, why does shooting a a different
size target seem reasonable in score ?
 
retired said:
It is actually kind of simple.
Lets look at it from the group side of the coin.
I want to shoot a 30 br in group, but i want it to be "fair",
so we deduct 0.065 from all my groups to make it fair
since i am shooting a larger bullet.

If that does not seem reasonable to you, why does shooting a a different
size target seem reasonable in score ?
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That's not the case, at all. Your analogy would be like shooting a 30 for group but only subtracting .243 from the group's od. I've been told by others, that this very thing happens, on occasion. On the flip side of that, there are people that shoot a 22 cal, in part, because of this common scoring mistake. But, that isn't the intent. Each caliber is measured differently. You see, even group shooting is caliber neutral.
 
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Group shooting, above all, is caliber neutral. There is no math involved...just pick the right circle and voila...correct measurement.
 
but like the 6ppc shooters in score,i want it to be "fair" i do not care about neutral.

mwezell said:
That's not the case, at all. Your analogy would be like shooting a 30 for group but only subtracting .243 from the group's od. I've been told by others, that this very thing happens, on occasion. On the flip side of that, there are people that shoot a 22 cal, in part, because of this common scoring mistake. But, that isn't the intent. Each caliber is measured differently. You see, even group shooting is caliber neutral.
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HOW ABOUT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.
br has shot at the same targets regardless of what chambering you shoot,
why is now required to have a different target because you chose a smaller caliber ?
WHY DOES UBR THINK THAT MAKING A POOR CHOICE IN CALIBER, DESERVES A "FAIR" TARGET ?

no more, you have a good day
 
retired said:
HOW ABOUT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.
br has shot at the same targets regardless of what chambering you shoot,
why is now required to have a different target because you chose a smaller caliber ?
WHY DOES UBR THINK THAT MAKING A POOR CHOICE IN CALIBER, DESERVES A "FAIR" TARGET ?

no more, you have a good day
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Sorry if a simple question got you agitated. This subject seems to have that effect on you, though.
Obviously you don't shoot UBR, so why do you care so much?

If you do ever decide to actually give UBR a try, I'm sure that you'll be warmly welcomed. I hope that you'll try it so that your opinion can come from experience...and matter.

You've bounced from thread to thread, to bash caliber neutral scoring but I bet you have zero experience with it.

Again, if you ever open your mind to a new game, that is growing while others are stagnant, please come on out and shoot with us.
 
FBecigneul said:
I don't think I care for the caliber neutral targets either.
What do I do? I shoot VfS with .30BR and I shoot group with a 6PPC.
I don't come on here and get all huffy about UBR. I just stay away.
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Gee Francis, you're so cute when you're huffy ??
 
Francis - if you will, please send me an email as I don't seem to have your correct address. I've got a question and you might know the answer.
 
There isn't any right or wrong with UBR or the present registered Score matches. I came into this sport knowing what the rules of the game is at the time. So be it. Doesn't matter if my personal opinion thinks the system is unfair! The rules were in place before I started and if I don't like the game, I don't play! Simple. Some have done just that, UBR and they are happy. That is awesome. It works well for them. I like the game I am playing and am tired or hearing people trying to change it. Some day it may happen whether I like it or not, and at which time I will have to decide if I want to continue. In the northeast portion of the USA (I am not certain whether this applies to other parts), there is a sport called bowling in which there are two separate subdivisions. One discipline uses a small ball and the pins are a tall narrow shape, while the other uses a ball that is so large you can only grip it by sticking fingers into holes drilled into the ball and the associated pins are shorter and fatter. Some bowling lanes have both disciplines going on at the same time. I have done both and like one over the other but not once have I ever heard a single competitor in either discipline B**** that the other should adopt their game. Instead, we feel fortunate that we have two in which to participate for when we get tired of one we can play the other. Although, I have not tried UBR and don't have a hankering to, I understand the need and think it worthy that someone did something about their dislike instead of bitching about it. I trust they are happy. So am I.
 
Randy Jarvais said:
There isn't any right or wrong with UBR or the present registered Score matches. I came into this sport knowing what the rules of the game is at the time. So be it. Doesn't matter if my personal opinion thinks the system is unfair! The rules were in place before I started and if I don't like the game, I don't play! Simple. Some have done just that, UBR and they are happy. That is awesome. It works well for them. I like the game I am playing and am tired or hearing people trying to change it. Some day it may happen whether I like it or not, and at which time I will have to decide if I want to continue. In the northeast portion of the USA (I am not certain whether this applies to other parts), there is a sport called bowling in which there are two separate subdivisions. One discipline uses a small ball and the pins are a tall narrow shape, while the other uses a ball that is so large you can only grip it by sticking fingers into holes drilled into the ball and the associated pins are shorter and fatter. Some bowling lanes have both disciplines going on at the same time. I have done both and like one over the other but not once have I ever heard a single competitor in either discipline B**** that the other should adopt their game. Instead, we feel fortunate that we have two in which to participate for when we get tired of one we can play the other. Although, I have not tried UBR and don't have a hankering to, I understand the need and think it worthy that someone did something about their dislike instead of bitching about it. I trust they are happy. So am I.
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Thank you.
 
Randy Jarvais said:
There isn't any right or wrong with UBR or the present registered Score matches. I came into this sport knowing what the rules of the game is at the time. So be it. Doesn't matter if my personal opinion thinks the system is unfair! The rules were in place before I started and if I don't like the game, I don't play! Simple. Some have done just that, UBR and they are happy. That is awesome. It works well for them. I like the game I am playing and am tired or hearing people trying to change it. Some day it may happen whether I like it or not, and at which time I will have to decide if I want to continue. In the northeast portion of the USA (I am not certain whether this applies to other parts), there is a sport called bowling in which there are two separate subdivisions. One discipline uses a small ball and the pins are a tall narrow shape, while the other uses a ball that is so large you can only grip it by sticking fingers into holes drilled into the ball and the associated pins are shorter and fatter. Some bowling lanes have both disciplines going on at the same time. I have done both and like one over the other but not once have I ever heard a single competitor in either discipline B**** that the other should adopt their game. Instead, we feel fortunate that we have two in which to participate for when we get tired of one we can play the other. Although, I have not tried UBR and don't have a hankering to, I understand the need and think it worthy that someone did something about their dislike instead of bitching about it. I trust they are happy. So am I.
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Nice post Randy. That about sum it up.
 
Randy Jarvais said:
There isn't any right or wrong with UBR or the present registered Score matches. I came into this sport knowing what the rules of the game is at the time. So be it. Doesn't matter if my personal opinion thinks the system is unfair! The rules were in place before I started and if I don't like the game, I don't play! Simple. Some have done just that, UBR and they are happy. That is awesome. It works well for them. I like the game I am playing and am tired or hearing people trying to change it. Some day it may happen whether I like it or not, and at which time I will have to decide if I want to continue. In the northeast portion of the USA (I am not certain whether this applies to other parts), there is a sport called bowling in which there are two separate subdivisions. One discipline uses a small ball and the pins are a tall narrow shape, while the other uses a ball that is so large you can only grip it by sticking fingers into holes drilled into the ball and the associated pins are shorter and fatter. Some bowling lanes have both disciplines going on at the same time. I have done both and like one over the other but not once have I ever heard a single competitor in either discipline B**** that the other should adopt their game. Instead, we feel fortunate that we have two in which to participate for when we get tired of one we can play the other. Although, I have not tried UBR and don't have a hankering to, I understand the need and think it worthy that someone did something about their dislike instead of bitching about it. I trust they are happy. So am I.
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Yep, right on. Well stated.

Later
Dave
 
Randy Jarvais said:
There isn't any right or wrong with UBR or the present registered Score matches. I came into this sport knowing what the rules of the game is at the time. So be it. Doesn't matter if my personal opinion thinks the system is unfair! The rules were in place before I started and if I don't like the game, I don't play! Simple. Some have done just that, UBR and they are happy. That is awesome. It works well for them. I like the game I am playing and am tired or hearing people trying to change it. Some day it may happen whether I like it or not, and at which time I will have to decide if I want to continue. In the northeast portion of the USA (I am not certain whether this applies to other parts), there is a sport called bowling in which there are two separate subdivisions. One discipline uses a small ball and the pins are a tall narrow shape, while the other uses a ball that is so large you can only grip it by sticking fingers into holes drilled into the ball and the associated pins are shorter and fatter. Some bowling lanes have both disciplines going on at the same time. I have done both and like one over the other but not once have I ever heard a single competitor in either discipline B**** that the other should adopt their game. Instead, we feel fortunate that we have two in which to participate for when we get tired of one we can play the other. Although, I have not tried UBR and don't have a hankering to, I understand the need and think it worthy that someone did something about their dislike instead of bitching about it. I trust they are happy. So am I.
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Randy, I think your post is riddled with misconception in that, I don't think UBR was founded from a "dislike" of the game itself, of either IBS or NBRSA. As you say, it is what it is and like it or leave.
Rather, prior to UBR, I don't recall anyone advocating for an 11 pt scoring system or a caliber neutral target system. Danny simply implemented ideas into what is now UBR and they are bearing fruit in terms of attracting new shooters and growing the sport. This is undeniable and is what we all want to see happen. This is not the same as saying that IBS or NBRSA should change their game, at all. UBR is yet another option for anyone to try and be welcomed.
 
FBecigneul said:
They have been shooting the 11 point X system for a long time in Canada, longer than UBR has been around, not that makes much difference in this discussion. I might add they experimented with the 11 point X at WWCCA many years ago and found the winner of the event wouldn't have changed very often, if ever.
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Yes sir. I was aware of them doing it up there. As to it changing the results, it does indeed change them very often, more so at 200 though and ultimately, in the grand. All you have to do is look at the results of several IBS matches and see it. How many times have we seen a 249-8 or 10 x's get beat by a 250-5 or so? Yes, there are certainly times that it doesn't change the winner, but there are many times that it does, too. It almost always changes the position of shooters other than the winner. It's just different, having the x score as a point rather than a tie breaker. That's a tiny little point.
 
mwezell said:
Randy, I think your post is riddled with misconception in that, I don't think UBR was founded from a "dislike" of the game itself, of either IBS or NBRSA. As you say, it is what it is and like it or leave. Rather, prior to UBR, I don't recall anyone advocating for an 11 pt scoring system or a caliber neutral target system. Danny simply implemented ideas into what is now UBR and they are bearing fruit in terms of attracting new shooters and growing the sport. This is undeniable and is what we all want to see happen. This is not the same as saying that IBS or NBRSA should change their game, at all. UBR is yet another option for anyone to try and be welcomed.
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Mike, I read the posts and interpret what I read. I may have misinterpreted why Danny changed some things about the score "game" and developed his own version of a score game called UBR. A lot of what I have read spends a great deal of time touting the caliber neutral scoring rings and not so much about the 11 point scoring system. Why did Danny want a game with caliber neutral scoring rings?? Most of what I read decries the fact that the present score target provides an advantage to a larger caliber bullet when the accuracy is the same between rifles of different calibers. Those post usually go on to say that that isn't fair. For the person making that statement, isn't that the same as "disliking" that aspect of the score game?? I will not put words in Danny's mouth as I do not know his motive for going to caliber neutral targets. I made an assumption from what I read from others, that part of the premise was to equal the score for equal accuracy regardless of caliber. because he "disliked" and could improve upon the present target/scoring system. If that is not correct, then it is only right that you correct me.
 
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