The Great Score Target and Bullet Size Controversy

The title of this thread is pretty important "The Great Score Target and Bullet Size Controversy".

Group matches do not have these same discussions because the diameter of the bullet is taken out of the equation when scoring a target. A .200" group is a .200" group regardless of the caliber - it is just a slightly bigger hole when using a larger caliber bullet = which is where the controversy comes in because score targets have rings. Theoretically, the solution is to get rid of the rings (maybe keep the 8 ring for aiming purposes) and only have the dot. Measure from the center of the dot to the center of the bullet hole. Shoot whatever caliber you want. The winner would be the person with the lowest combined distance (measurement) - just like in group except this would be a more true measure of accuracy rather than precision.

I type theoretically because that method would be a realistic scoring nightmare. It would almost have to be a computer scanning system to determine the distance. That probably isn't going to happen - and I'm guessing would not change the order of the results enough to justify the expense. Therefore we will have rings on the target. As long as there are rings - we will have these discussions.

Kudos to UBR for having the desire, work ethic, and kahunas to try something new.

Stanley
 
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R.G. Robinett said:
I'll throw the following of for perusal.

Bench-rest score shooting roots are solidly entrenched in Hunter Class origin, and married to the concept of precision rifles.
It appears, that, as early as the mid-1960's, especially in Pennsylvania - somewhere, in my files, I have a match report, dated 1966/67, which was passed to me by [the late] George Myer. George sated that, even then, at 100 Yd., they were shooting at a 1/2" ten-ring - a carry-over from the "moth-ball", or, group shooting center-ring. I'll attempt to locate and post that report - it features a number of names, including George, recognizable yet today - stalwarts of bench-rest oh, and there were about 60+ competitors!

Apparently, it was decided that a 1/2" "bull" afforded an ample, while difficult level of accuracy, which required rather precision rifles.
To this day, this holds true: Aggregate winning scoring requires accurate shot placement via a precision rifle. Withstanding the eventual schism, which resulted in the NBRSA & IBS, the score format remained largely uniform. The IBS was first to officially offer a National Championship event. I believe the report (mentioned above) states, at the top of the page, that is was "sanctioned" by the NBRSA, but NOT registered.

Eventually, the IBS recognized Varmint for Score, in addition to Hunter Class, and, even Varmint Hunter, while, until about 2011/12, the NBRSA recognized only the Hunter Class. All classes retained the 0.500" ten-ring - any move to reduce the size was met with, well, led in the baloon . . . (see my post in another thread)

Then, a fellow, from Maine, one Jim Goody, decided to campaign a thirty caliber VfS rig - back around 1997, or so. Until then, the 6mm dominated VfS and, the thinly contested VH.

When, Mr. Goody laid claim to three consecutive IBS SOY titles (I believe 1998,99, &Y2K), and a National Championship (Y2K), blazing X-es with his 30 Jaguar (essentially, a 30x47HBR): "things were about to change." Most surprising, was the sudden decline is 250-20++X 6mm scores . . . I never have figured that out (see other threads). Also, in 1998/9, Ronnie Long, Joe Entrekin, 'Humble Henry" Rivers, and company began campaigning 30 BRs . . . and boy, did they work, and not for just a select few, who could figure them out. ;-)

So, in the context of precision, and to snip off my rambling, if anything, we needed a more difficult ten-ring, not an easier one - not for any caliber!! And, more incremental ring spacing! To this day, 6mm totters often take one look at the NBRSA/IBS 100 Yd. score target, and pronounce it, "too easy" . . . until they drop a point! ;-) And, that is the point - it, "ain't az eazy az it lookz"!

Before I get skewered, in the last three seasons, in registered VfS tournaments, I have used .20; .24; .25; .30 Cal cartridges and never felt handicapped. Keep 'em ON the X! RG
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Actually Randy, Jim won SSOY in 2000, 2001 & 2002. David I believe Joe & Henry came to the Maine 100-200 states in 2003 and put an ass whippin on everyone. Joe won SSOY that year and Henry was 2nd and in 2004, Henry was SSOY and Joe was runner up.
 
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Dave, it was the same year

David Apple said:
To add a little to the above:
Around 1999-2001 Mark Sainer (sp?) and his son were shooting a Sid Goodling smithed 30BR at Thurmont.
In 2002 at the 200-300 Nationals at Mainville Jim Goody's "deer gun" fell to the likes of a puny 6 PPC piloted by yours truly.
I distinctly remember although I cannot remember what year Joe Entrekin and Henry Rivers came to Maine with their 30's and handed out delicious peaches and a serious ass whooping. I still have the scars.
Of course then there was the "30BR Graveyard" sign at Thurmont.....and then the walls came tumbling down.
The 6 PPC is a brutal tool and I would not bet against it when driven by a qualified pilot.
Randy, pardon my feeble attempt at 'filling in some blanks'.
DA
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that "someone" put up the infamous 30BR Graveyard sign; followed that year or next with the humorous 30 BR defacatorium sign on the mens out house at Mainville PA IBS 100/200 National, put there prolly by the same "someone". I came in 4th in the grand at that BUD and have the plaque so I will see if I can find it. Dennis Collins won the grand with a perfect 750 shooting a PPC. 2nd, 3rd and 4th were all 749's and something. It was a few moons ago, prior to 2004 which is the oldest shoot results date on the IBS website.
 
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glp said:
that "someone" put up the infamous 30BR Graveyard sign; followed that year or next with the humorous 30 BR defacatorium sign on the mens out house at Mainville PA state shoot, put there prolly by the same "someone". I came in 4th in the grand at that BUD and have the plaque so I will see if I can find it. Dennis Collins won the grand with a perfect 750 shooting a PPC. 2nd, 3rd and 4th were all 749's and something. It was a few moons ago, prior to 2004 which is the oldest shoot results date on the IBS website.
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Greg, that was 2003...Randy Robinett and I traveled out there together. I have a picture of myself holding the Hunter Grand Agg winner and Guy Green traveling trophy with the 30BR Graveyard outhouse in the background. Good stuff, for sure! :)

Dennis Collins put on quite a display of shooting in the VFS class. I remember meeting Jim Borden coming off the firing line from the 200 yd. first relay saying to no nobody in particular: "I shot 21 sighters!!!!"

Good shootin'. -Al
 
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glp said:
that "someone" put up the infamous 30BR Graveyard sign; followed that year or next with the humorous 30 BR defacatorium sign on the mens out house at Mainville PA state shoot, put there prolly by the same "someone". I came in 4th in the grand at that BUD and have the plaque so I will see if I can find it. Dennis Collins won the grand with a perfect 750 shooting a PPC. 2nd, 3rd and 4th were all 749's and something. It was a few moons ago, prior to 2004 which is the oldest shoot results date on the IBS website.
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Yeah 'someone' left this tape in my trailer......
 

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Apollo said:
The title of this thread is pretty important "The Great Score Target and Bullet Size Controversy".

Group matches do not have these same discussions because the diameter of the bullet is taken out of the equation when scoring a target. A .200" group is a .200" group regardless of the caliber - it is just a slightly bigger hole when using a larger caliber bullet = which is where the controversy comes in because score targets have rings. Theoretically, the solution is to get rid of the rings (maybe keep the 8 ring for aiming purposes) and only have the dot. Measure from the center of the dot to the center of the bullet hole. Shoot whatever caliber you want. The winner would be the person with the lowest combined distance (measurement) - just like in group except this would be a more true measure of accuracy rather than precision.

I type theoretically because that method would be a realistic scoring nightmare. It would almost have to be a computer scanning system to determine the distance. That probably isn't going to happen - and I'm guessing would not change the order of the results enough to justify the expense. Therefore we will have rings on the target. As long as there are rings - we will have these discussions.

Kudos to UBR for having the desire, work ethic, and kahunas to try something new.

Stanley
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That would be an interesting concept. You could have a tool similiar to the ones used in Group, with a small 1/16 circle to encapsulate the X, and the sliding feature would have the bullet diameter. Of course, it would be 1/8 for 200. When closed, the two circles would be concentric and the dial set at .ooo.

You are correct in it being more difficult to score. But no more difficult than targets that are scored in Group.

I disagree about it not changing the outcome. One thing it would correct is the large space between scoring. At present, a shot that misses the X by .001 inch is scored exactly the same as a shot that just touches the outside of the 10 ring by .001.
 
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First 5 - 250-25's

were shot by 6PPC's. Dennis Collins, the first two, a year a part wit different rifles. So - - -. Perhaps there is a gain when using a 30 but clearly, the 6 is capable of besting them. Perhaps not on a " regular basis" but capable.

I think it may be because the 6's can be finicky to keep in tune, why the 30's have proliferated.

Pete
 
Al

Al Nyhus said:
Greg, that was 2003...Randy Robinett and I traveled out there together. I have a picture of myself holding the Hunter Grand Agg winner and Guy Green traveling trophy with the 30BR Graveyard outhouse in the background. Good stuff, for sure! :)

Dennis Collins put on quite a display of shooting in the VFS class. I remember meeting Jim Borden coming off the firing line from the 200 yd. first relay saying to no nobody in particular: "I shot 21 sighters!!!!"

Good shootin'. -Al
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right it was the National at Mainville not the state shoot. Somewhere I have a pic of you, Randy, Jim Goody, myself and possibly others at shoot close. Good times and memories for sure. Gonna try and make the NBRSA National in Webster City this year...thats the plan so far. Hope to run across you there. --Greg
 
Kyle Schultz said:
Randy, I don't want to misinterpret what you are saying. So you believe, in the rare instances when you misread the wind, the penalty with a 68 gr bullet is so severe relative to, let's say, an 118 gr bullet, that the enhanced scoring reticle is meaningless? A 9 is a 9 is a 9?
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Usually yes - especially at 200 yards. Even when I shoot my beloved .25x47 LAPUA and 110GR. bullets (BC .53), and make a miss-read, the scorer will likely put a 9 my target . . . often, my nine is better than both neighbors, but, it's still a nine! ;-) Now, if we returned to the original NBRSA 200 Yd. score target, the incremental difference might make those higher BC bullets a little more likely to pay off, ;-) Keep 'em ON the X! RG

P.S. Thank you, Jim, for correcting my date errors. Jim Goody, was though to beat! :)
David A., the "30BR un-loading area" sign, which hung on the Maineville outhouse, and mentioned, by Al, above, hangs on the west wall of my shop, along with other prized memorabilia . . . and proof of botched opportunity (right beside my finest, "FAT HEAD" trophy)! ;-)
 
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Apollo said:
Measure from the center of the dot to the center of the bullet hole. Shoot whatever caliber you want. The winner would be the person with the lowest combined distance (measurement) - just like in group except this would be a more true measure of accuracy rather than precision.
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Now that is a clever idea!
 
"UBR has no X's. That little dot is a POINT.

Of course a well piloted 6 may win in IBS, on occasion. Stranger things have certainly happened than that. But I don't see a rush of IBS/NBRSA 30 cal shooters rushing out to build a 6mm , any time soon.

Maybe we should look at a Super Shoot match report or two, to see just how far down the list the winner would be if you add the difference between a 6 and a 30 to their groups/agg. That would be .065", Randy. "

Looking at group shooting, specifically the SS, opens the discussion to, "you have to make the shot!" Recoil shyness is what prevents most people from trying thirty cals. in group tournaments - not a lack of precision. This, having to execute the same good shot(s), is one element that I have tried to avoid, but the group equipment lists tend to bear proof - despite the extreme scarcity of opportunity, some pretty respectable Aggs. having been posted, including at least, two of which were worthy of consideration - by the NBRSA records committee - for world record status: one did not stand up to the scrutiny, the other was withheld by the shooter, because he thought the .13xx, "looked bigger" . . . . ;-)

Still, if you ask, most will go straight to the recoil-phobia reason. A thirty will teach one about, as "Humble Henry" says,, "Table manners". ;-) Sorely as I hate to confess believing it, as others have mentioned, that big hole comes with a price-tag. RG
 
R.G. Robinett said:
...the "30BR un-loading area" sign, which hung on the Maineville outhouse, and mentioned, by Al, above, hangs on the west wall of my shop, along with other prized memorabilia . . . and proof of botched opportunity (right beside my finest, "FAT HEAD" trophy)! ;-)
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I knew I had it somewhere. Good times, great people. :) -Al

q4NccgZ.jpg
 
There's enough difference in group and score shooting to cause one to choose either cartridge. You would need a really good setup to shoot a 30 five times in a few seconds (group) while the 30 makes a bigger hole (score). What I'm saying is that if you had both and they shot identical in terms of accuracy...you would shoot the 6 in group and the 30 in score. Sure, you can shoot whatever you want to shoot but while the differences seem small....they ain't.
 
glp said:
in front of the loading was my doing. It just seemed more appropriate given where the sign was hanging!! --Greg
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As much as I would like to take credit...that ain't my handwriting and the tape is the wrong color...

GREAT times with great people.
 
I have competed in both IBS and UBR. I don't compete in IBS at this time, alot of reason why. I have won and lost in UBR, lost more than I have won. But I do believe that UBR is the best game to play, not putting down IBS ( to each his own).

UBR was started by Danny and thought through, at this time I don't think anyone can put up a reason why it isn't caliber equal. I have won and lost using 223, 243, and 308.

Like I said, don't put it down until you play it with all calibers. You just might like it.

BTW, UBR in our area has brought alot more new shooters than IBS has. Just my 2 cents. Alot of great people are involved.
 
I talked to a couple of Score Shooters at Walker County this past week end, asking whathey thought of the UBR/NBRSA/X vs 11 "controversy".

Many would be open to the equalize target that UBR has introduced, but want to keep the X as just a tie breaker, maintaining the "sudden death" aspect of the current NBRSA/IBS Format.
 
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