Tested Loads Today - Really Disappointed

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Kimberguy2004

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I tested a batch of .223 loads today in my Rem700. I don't know whether to be disappointed in the gun, the loads, or myself. I'm a newbie at bench shooting, so it could very well be poor techique on my part. The best I could get was about 3/4" groups. I loaded three cases at a time with specific bullets and incremented the charge to see what it liked the most. I used unfired Lapua brass that has only been trimmed and the necks chamfered. I used combinations of Berger 55gr match and Nosler 55gr Ballistic Tip with H9548 and Accurate 2460. Maybe I'm not using the right powder and I do have several different ones, so recommendations are readily accepted. I did check the loads for runout and there was what I thought was significant runout several thousanths on some, condsidering I'm using Lapua brass. The process was to see which powder shoots the best in this particular gun, then tweak it with variations in the powder charge, then try different seating depths. BTW, the seating depth on all of todays loads were touching the lands, determined by using a Hornady OAL Comparator and calipers. I also cleaned the barrel with Rem Bore Cleaner and Shooters Chice and pusded a clean patch through before each group. I also sent one fouling shot down the tube after cleaning, trying to keep everything as consustant as possible. One thing that I didn't do, now that I look back, was to rotate the case in the shellholder while I was seating the bullets. I just set the bullet on top of the case and slowly raised the ram.(Rockchucker)
Since I'm not happy with the way any of them shot, I'm thinking of running the same test with this brass, paying more attention to the seating progress, now that the brass has been formed in my gun, and see if the results are different.. I'm just going to brush the case necks and clean up the primer pocket for this loading. Any thoughts from you gurus who have already pulled out all of our hair over this type of foolishness?
 
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Is a new gun? How does it shoot with fac ammo? Scope ? Maybe would help if you could establise some kind of baseline for the gun?
 
Son, your rifle needs bedding and trigger job......

What about wind? Wind plays a significant difference in group size, not to menton bullet seating depth.

Where are you at in your accuracy Basics knowledge?
 
It is a relatively new gun with maybe a couple of hundred rounds thru it. Scope is a Sightron 6-24. Todays wind was light to nothing..Barrel is floated, but i havn't bedded it yet. The smith who checked it out for me when I bought it said to shoot it some and see how it does..
Please explain your question on "accuracy basics".. Thanks I appreciate all of the comments
 
What's wrong with 3/4" groups?? What did you expect to get?

From your reloading regimen I'd say that you did really good, you can shoot. 3/4" just ain't at all bad for what you've described. Remember, those groups you read about on the internet are "internet groups", many of them aren't real. MANY a campfire and keyboard setter can shoot much better with their computer than they can with their guns.....

For a rifle to be a "3/4" gun" you must be able to post 5 consecutive grps of 5 shots each which average under 3/4" center to center.

This just AIN'T so easy in real life as it seems here in cyberspace. There is a learning curve.

hth


al
 
Well, I guess I had just hoped for better. Several of the groups I shot had holes touching and some even had two in the same hole, but there was always that pesky flyer(or screw-up on my part). I want to shoot factory varmint class with it at the club, and from what I've seen, I just need to do better to be competietive..It'll get there.. I just have a tendency to get a little impatient..
 
Generally, factory bedding is such that when you float the barrel, it is a good idea to go ahead and bed the action at the same time. Of course, pillar bedding is the best of non glue in bedding systems.

What sort of dies are you using? Is the Remington cleaner an abrasive one? if it is, i would hold off on using it every time, if at all. What are you resting the rifle on? How sturdy is the bench, and do you have anything in front of you to help gauge the wind? What is the trigger weight?
 
Kimberguy2004: Please try the Berger 52 grain bullets in your 223 Model 700.
I have several 223's that really LOVE this bullet!
After reading all your posts I am pretty sure your Rifle IS one of the Varmint models so "best groups" that are 3 shots in 3/4" with calm conditions is not very exciting as yet.
I am hoping you can do better with the Remington 700 and soon.
Be sure to try H 335 powder in your 223 as well.
I am sure it was a "typo" but your posted "H 9548" powder as one that you have tried - and I am sure you ment to post "H 4895" powder.
Or is there a new powder (H 9548) thats not mentioned on Hodgdon's website as yet.
Yeah, and be sure to use the Federal 205 M (Match) primers in your load development.
Best of luck with the 223 Model 700 and let us know if we can be of any more help.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
 
3/4" Groups

I have had good luck with 55gr V-max bullets in my Rem 700 and am just starting to work with 55gr Bergers. I have been using H322. I have been trying to shoot 1/2" groups that I shot with some commercial reloads but have not been able to duplicate those results with my reloads. The reloads used 55gr V-max. Does your rifle have the factory trigger? I have an older 700BDL V (early 1980's?) with a Jewel trigger. 3/4" with a factory trigger seems pretty good to me.
 
Wow, lots of inquiries.. I'll try to hit them all. it is a heavt barrel varmint model, SS, 26#barrel. I did mean H4895. I'm using a Redding S Neck sizer, .002" smaller than the loaded round and a Forster micrometer seating die. I'm shooting off of a Caldwell rest sitting on a concrete bench. I wasn't using wind flags, no wind today, and the trigger pull is around 2 lbs..
 
Kimberguy,

Are you going to shoot in benchrest matches with it? If not I'd use Nossler Ballistic Tips or Hornady V-Maxs. They're about 1/2 the price or less.
I don't think you'll probably ever shoot really small groups consistantly unless your using flags. I work up a load like you were doing. 3 shot groups. When I find several (4) I load up 5 rounds per each powder charge for a total of 25.
You can also chenge bullet weights too. But do it the same and be consistant. Fire the first 5 shots. Then clean. Then fire the next 5. Clean and so on. Till you fired all 25 rounds. Hopefully you'll see which combination your gun likes. Do this for each powder & bullet. Only change on thing at a time.
Remember be consistant.
Some powders mine like are; AA2230, H322, N133. There are others that I've tried IMR3031, IMR4198, IMR4320 that shot OK with some smaller than 1/2" but most larger.
Not taking anything away from Varmintguy but, save your money and buy the Fed 205 primers. They're the same thing and cost about $1.00 a box less. They just haven't been 100% visually inspected like the others.
Like AlinWa said, there's a lot of people that have varmint guns that outshoot benchrest guns all the time IF "THEY do their part".


James
 
One thing that might help is to get a precision reloading book, it'll help you to understand what you're up against. I think that the following short list should be fully understood before one can expect to make reloads which exceed the accuracy potential of factory rounds.


http://www.amazon.com/Precision-Sho...bs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1227414203&sr=8-1


http://www.sinclairintl.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=BOVSOB&item=15-100&type=store

http://www.sinclairintl.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=BOVSOB&item=15-1600&type=store

http://www.sinclairintl.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=BOVSRB&item=15-845&type=store


BTW you've got some misconceptions about the real efficacy of Lapua brass. Lapua as it comes from the box is still only a rough lump, a base from which you must work. You must mold and manipulate it just like any other case in order to make accurate and consistent cases. Lapua cases are formed just like the others, a large machine called a hammermill bangs repeatedly on a small disc or button, an ingot of cartridge brass, and smashes it into a shape which closely approximates a match cartridge case. The case as it's formed IS NOT ready for true accuracy work. The virgin Lapua case is just a hunk of unfired clay. What I'm saying is ....... things like being disappointed in the "runout" of a virgin case and trying to trim unfired cases to length indicate that you don't really understand the parameters involved in producing accurate ammunition. Reading these books may help more than asking specific questions.......I'm not saying NOT to ask questions :):):) they just might lead to MORE questions and confusion without you get some background.


BTW, the "spinning the case in the shellholder to straighten your loads" is junk info......typical internet fluff. Right up there with "straightening your rounds" after the fact and "buying a more rigid press with better alignment for making straighter reloads".

YOUR RIFLE MAKES OR BREAKS THE BRASS ON THE FIRST FIRING!!!! Anything after that is just maintenance, you can't fix anything after that first firing.

You're at the right place for answers but I think you need some more background info........ just my read from your OP



al
 
Now that you have fireformed your brass to your chamber you can start on your load development as you state in your post. Brass need to be fireformed before you start tweeking the loads for accuracy. Some people buy cheap bulk bullets to shoot downrange for fireforming the brass. 3/4" groups with fresh brass is pretty damn good. It should be even better after you find the right setting depth and powder charge with formed cases. RANDY
 
load development

Anybody tried the Audette ladder test to fine tune a load?
 
23.6 23.7gr in Warm weather 2.255"OAL Use CCI 400 Primers. If it won't shoot flies or asprin something wrong with the gun or scope.
 
Take Varmintguy's advice and work with the Bergers. they cut the group size in half in my 22-250 Ruger down to the high threes.
I also have excellent success with them in my 6MM BR custom. The first 3 shot group I ever fired in the gun measured .218, VMaxs shoot in the low 4's.
I would definetly get that action bedded and have that Trigger lightened up, or replaced with maybe a Timney.
If you can find someone with a bore scope and have them check the bore it would be well worth your time. If the rifling is rough or the throat is burned it's unlikely your gonna' get it to shoot.
IMHO- Getting a gun to shoot is usually not a matter of changing just 1 thing, but a bunch of little thing put together.
BTW-How does your crown look?
 
I don't know whether to be disappointed in the gun, the loads, or myself. I'm a newbie at bench shooting, so it could very well be poor techique on my part. The best I could get was about 3/4" groups.
Click to expand...

I'd say to be new at benchshooting and shooting 3/4" with new loads is not too shabby. I think it is safe to say that most of us here probably did fare as well when we were new at bench shooting.

Many variables in bench shooting technique that can wreak havoc on your consistency. Simply setting up on a bench does not guarantee great groups. Though many think it is easy , I see very few at my range that actually fire even the 3/4" groups. So don't be hard on yourself!

With a 1 in 12" twist 26" 700 in .223 I have also had great results with the Berger 52 match mentioned above. And the 52 Sierra match too with H335 in a 26" SPS Varmint. I picked up a new stainless 700 VLS .223 but have not shot it yet. But the 52 Berger is one that has given me great results in all the .223s I have owned including the 1 in 9" twist 700 LTR.

Benchmark powder has given me great results with the 55 Berger in the 700LTR as well as H335. H322 has performed well for me too.
 
A consistent .75 while fireforming loads is not bad. I frequently see a 20-30% improvement in groups after just fireforming the brass, keeping all else the same.
 
Load

I might back the seating depth to give a little jump to the lands and work it in 'til it kisses again. Doesn't always work but some rifles like it. I have also had good results with BL{C}2 in the 223s. 3/4" under the circumstances you listed sounds like a good start to me too. the fun has begun!
 
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