Rookie Needs Help from the Pros.

S

Sabre

New member
Hi everyone, new to the sport and to forums but need some guidance if you have the time (and Patience). Backstory, I retired a couple of years ago and just prior to retiring some gents took me out shooting their BR rifles, 6mm and 30BR, I was hooked immediately and after some discussion I opted to build a 6.5 CM with the intent of shooting 300 yds out to 1000 as my skill level improved.

My rifle is a Savage Target Action with target trigger, Shilen Select Match barrel, NF 15-55 competition scope and what the manufacturer calls a low profile benchrest stock. Over the past two years I've developed a load for the rifle that is getting me to 1" groups at 300 yards.

I'm at a point that I want to start going to some matches for the experience and to learn more so I joined NBRSA and IBRSA. I read the different rules listed on both sites looking for matches that I could compete in but after spending several days reading the material I am now uncertain what the proper description of my rifle is or what class my rifle falls in? My best guess is that it is considered either a Heavy Benchrest (IBRSA) or Unlimited (NBRSA). I was also unable to determine what matches I can compete in with my rifle. My best guess on that has been 600 to 1000 yds only not the 300 I've been practicing at unless I change my stock to a varmint (?) and buy a new barrel that is narrower at the muzzle.

I would appreciate any info on the correct definition of my rifle and what classes I can compete in with it.

I apologize for the long winded question, I live on the coast of NC with no local competitions to attend or active shooters I can readily reach out to.


6.5 CM BR.jpg
Thank you.
 
Take it into a meat market and weigh it on a good scale..... IMO the relevant competitons will be 600 and 1000 benchrest the class break is at around 16.5 to 17lb depending on organization/event so find out where you're at.

I've built some 6.5CM's and with BR bullets they shoot well enough that I've made barrels for three of my 600-1K guns and one for testing in a railgun. I haven't used them in competition cuz




Da Covi't




But I think the chambering can be competitive in 600-1000

Absolutely no use at 100/200 IMO
 
there was ONE 6.5 cm a the ibs 1000 yard nationals.
did not win, think 5th in heavy score was best,
IMHO not a br cartridge
build a 10.5 lb 6ppc for 1-300
build a 30br for score
what you have is a fun rifle built on internet input, not match facts.
for 600 6br,6bra 5 dasher lite or heavy
for 1000 lite 6bra 6 dasher
for heavy 1000 6bra, 6 dasher 300 wsm
imho
 
alinwa said:
Take it into a meat market and weigh it on a good scale..... IMO the relevant competitons will be 600 and 1000 benchrest the class break is at around 16.5 to 17lb depending on organization/event so find out where you're at.

I've built some 6.5CM's and with BR bullets they shoot well enough that I've made barrels for three of my 600-1K guns and one for testing in a railgun. I haven't used them in competition cuz




Da Covi't




But I think the chambering can be competitive in 600-1000

Absolutely no use at 100/200 IMO
Click to expand...

Thank you alinwa. it weighs in at 14.7 on the home scale, not calibrated but I figure that's close.
 
rsmithsr said:
there was ONE 6.5 cm a the ibs 1000 yard nationals.
did not win, think 5th in heavy score was best,
IMHO not a br cartridge
build a 10.5 lb 6ppc for 1-300
build a 30br for score
what you have is a fun rifle built on internet input, not match facts.
for 600 6br,6bra 5 dasher lite or heavy
for 1000 lite 6bra 6 dasher
for heavy 1000 6bra, 6 dasher 300 wsm
imho
Click to expand...

Thank you rsmithsr, especially for the breakdown you provided. You have 30br for score, my understanding is that it is used for score due to the size of the round creating a larger hole on the target. is the 6ppc you listed best for group, or is 30br and 6ppc pretty much equal in your opinion?
I have no problem starting a new build, I've actually been looking forward to it and have been searching for equipment listings from the matches to determine what the winning cartridge, actions, barrels, triggers and stocks are but have not found any info except for Fclass competitions. Since my local range only supports out to 500, I think it would be wise to build a 6ppc or 30br as you suggested for 1-300 yard comp.
Do you have any advice or would you mind sharing your opinion with regards to action, trigger, barrel, stock and gunsmith? Or can you point me in the right direction where I can get credible info to make that decision?
Thank you again.
 
Sabre said:
Thank you alinwa. it weighs in at 14.7 on the home scale, not calibrated but I figure that's close.
Click to expand...

IMO you bring that Bad Larry over to a 600yd match posthaste and get'cher feeties wet.......'at's a LIGHT gun right there!!! piece a' cake, you can shoot 'er in Light and Heavy competition while conforming to the rules.
 
alinwa said:
IMO you bring that Bad Larry over to a 600yd match posthaste and get'cher feeties wet.......'at's a LIGHT gun right there!!! piece a' cake, you can shoot 'er in Light and Heavy competition while conforming to the rules.
Click to expand...

Sounds like a plan. IBRSA site is showing 600yd matches in Rutherford NC and Tennille GA both are around 5 to 6 hours away from my place. My local range is limited to 500yds, I'll start shooting that this weekend and look into registering for the Oct match in tennille. Look forward to getting the experience.

I also received some good info from rsmithsr that has me on the path of building a 200 to 300 yard platform as well, since it appears the only competitions within a couple of hours of me are of that distance.

Thank you again.
 
plenty can tell you what .how to build a short range 6ppc
start with a light gun shoot in most classes...10.5 lbs
bartlien. krieger bbl
jewell trigger
BAT action...DS most likely left port, right eject/right bolt....drop port is an option
ask others on a stock
ask others on reamer
see if you can find a KNOWN local bullet maker
n133 is a good starting powder
look for a 30mm tube scope that can make weight
 
rsmithsr said:
plenty can tell you what .how to build a short range 6ppc
start with a light gun shoot in most classes...10.5 lbs
bartlien. krieger bbl
jewell trigger
BAT action...DS most likely left port, right eject/right bolt....drop port is an option
ask others on a stock
ask others on reamer
see if you can find a KNOWN local bullet maker
n133 is a good starting powder
look for a 30mm tube scope that can make weight
Click to expand...

Thank you, I appreciate it.
 
rsmithsr said:
there was ONE 6.5 cm a the ibs 1000 yard nationals.
did not win, think 5th in heavy score was best,
IMHO not a br cartridge
build a 10.5 lb 6ppc for 1-300
build a 30br for score
what you have is a fun rifle built on internet input, not match facts.
for 600 6br,6bra 5 dasher lite or heavy
for 1000 lite 6bra 6 dasher
for heavy 1000 6bra, 6 dasher 300 wsm
imho
Click to expand...

When I joined this forum the idea of a 6mm at 1K was considered laughable although the 243AI was making inroads..... I spent thousands on the 243AI based on "winning match information" and was sorely disappointed at every turn. So I switched to 6BR.

6BR even at 600 let alone @ 1K was not at ANY match, anywhere. DUMB idea.
6MMBR.com did not exist.
100gr+ bullets were considered an oddity, deer hunting bullets.

I posted right here on BRC about getting 2900fps out of a 6BR and got laffed off the innernet EXCEPT for a few (some of them still hanging about to this day) who said I was "DAN'rous!!" and should take my lies somewhere's else before myself and others got hurt or maimed or worse!


Time went by.... some feller used the brilliant 22 DAsher concept necked up to 6....not brilliant, but it's relevant to this day.


Lapua came out with a spate of new cases including 6.5X47L which it took me 2 years from announcement for me to get..... 6.5X47L case makes a "dasher" sized round only 10 times better than the "6 Dasher" and yet to this day public perception is that the 6 Dasher is somehow "better"......BECAUSE



sheeple




People refuse to THINK, to ask WHY? To ask themselves HOW could the 6.5 case necked down to "Dasher" capacity possibly be "not as good".....



The only thing holding the 6.5rd back has been jackets.



I'll stop now before I hurt people's "feelings"...... there are perfectly rational and reasonable REASONS why I believe the 6.5CM _can_ be competitive today, properly built. That it may well be the next 1K phenom.


But I'll refrain. Rational discussion has long since disappeared from the planet let alone this forum.


I post this ONLY to welcome Sabre with open arms and to say "YOU GO MAN!!!" IME the learning curve just IS.... and whether you start it with a Savage or a custom-built special from one of The Big Boys is irrelevant IMO.

I've been party to both approaches.


Rock ON!!! Sabre...... and I've got 2-3 Savage large tenon actions collecting dust...... I've got 3-4 6.5bbls setting waiting for a project......I think I'ma' go assemble one into a 6.5CM (vomiting in my throat a little, I CARRIED The Talisman for a week!) and see what does she do against a 6.5CM bbl on a rail, a 6.5CM on a blocked Panda, a 6.5CM on a 17lb Borden glue-in BR rifle with pedigree and one on a 65lb steel frame Heavy 1K setup. At least all but the Savage are ready-built! Just gotta' thrung together a 110 and put 'er on the pile.... and decide which test to proceed with.


A while back I spent a week cobbling together a 6PPC and documenting the results on my youtube channel..... JUST because a guy on this board asked "what can the PPC case do with a 105???"


So welcome Sabre, Welcome to The Road. May The Sun Be Always At Your Back
 
Against my better judgement I'm going to give you a "piece of advice", please take this in the spirit intended.

Much more important than choice of components, more important even than who assembles these components in HOW the components are spec'd for assembly.


If you befriend a winning 6PPC BR shooter ask him to enumerate and explain;


-how the PPC case came into being and more importantly WHY.
-how to procure and maintain a proper fitted sizing die
-how to set your bags.
-etc


My "advice" is to use the learning curve which has resulted in the 6PPC phenomenon and apply it to long range BR. There's a lot of crossover. Harold Vaughn wrote a book in which he took the approach "let's look at why a gun DOESN'T shoot and examine the problems". This is a useful method. The 6PPC properly spec'd and maintained is the absolute culmination, the distillation of 70yrs hard work. (and a lot of by-guess and by-golly) And now, today I can apply these principles to other cases and get the same results. BECAUSE, long ago in a galaxy far far away 2 dedicated fellers decided to start from scratch..... and rewrote the book on accuracy.
 
alinwa said:
When I joined this forum the idea of a 6mm at 1K was considered laughable although the 243AI was making inroads..... I spent thousands on the 243AI based on "winning match information" and was sorely disappointed at every turn. So I switched to 6BR.

6BR even at 600 let alone @ 1K was not at ANY match, anywhere. DUMB idea.
6MMBR.com did not exist.
100gr+ bullets were considered an oddity, deer hunting bullets.

I posted right here on BRC about getting 2900fps out of a 6BR and got laffed off the innernet EXCEPT for a few (some of them still hanging about to this day) who said I was "DAN'rous!!" and should take my lies somewhere's else before myself and others got hurt or maimed or worse!


Time went by.... some feller used the brilliant 22 DAsher concept necked up to 6....not brilliant, but it's relevant to this day.


Lapua came out with a spate of new cases including 6.5X47L which it took me 2 years from announcement for me to get..... 6.5X47L case makes a "dasher" sized round only 10 times better than the "6 Dasher" and yet to this day public perception is that the 6 Dasher is somehow "better"......BECAUSE



sheeple




People refuse to THINK, to ask WHY? To ask themselves HOW could the 6.5 case necked down to "Dasher" capacity possibly be "not as good".....



The only thing holding the 6.5rd back has been jackets.



I'll stop now before I hurt people's "feelings"...... there are perfectly rational and reasonable REASONS why I believe the 6.5CM _can_ be competitive today, properly built. That it may well be the next 1K phenom.


But I'll refrain. Rational discussion has long since disappeared from the planet let alone this forum.


I post this ONLY to welcome Sabre with open arms and to say "YOU GO MAN!!!" IME the learning curve just IS.... and whether you start it with a Savage or a custom-built special from one of The Big Boys is irrelevant IMO.

I've been party to both approaches.


Rock ON!!! Sabre...... and I've got 2-3 Savage large tenon actions collecting dust...... I've got 3-4 6.5bbls setting waiting for a project......I think I'ma' go assemble one into a 6.5CM (vomiting in my throat a little, I CARRIED The Talisman for a week!) and see what does she do against a 6.5CM bbl on a rail, a 6.5CM on a blocked Panda, a 6.5CM on a 17lb Borden glue-in BR rifle with pedigree and one on a 65lb steel frame Heavy 1K setup. At least all but the Savage are ready-built! Just gotta' thrung together a 110 and put 'er on the pile.... and decide which test to proceed with.


A while back I spent a week cobbling together a 6PPC and documenting the results on my youtube channel..... JUST because a guy on this board asked "what can the PPC case do with a 105???"


So welcome Sabre, Welcome to The Road. May The Sun Be Always At Your Back
Click to expand...

Thank you Alinwa, I picked the 6.5 because my friends said it was still a round people were iffy about and that it may or may not turn out to be a champion round, but that I could use it for 300 out to 1000. My thinking was that it would be a good round to learn precision loading with while developing my shooting skills plus give me the option to shoot at different ranges until I found what I liked most. And at the time the process for making and shooting the 6br, 6ppc and 30br seemed intimidating to learn on my own. Now I actually look forward to learning how to do it :)

during load development it held 1/4 and 3/16 inch 3 round groups at 100 and at 300 I'm getting 1 to 2 inch 5 round groups, always seem to have a flyer that keeps me from 3/4 or 5/8 group. I feel pretty confident that as my reloading skills evolve (annealing, neck tension, seating depth etc) and I learn more about getting my reticle focus correct and shooting through mirage I can tighten that up quite a bit.

I like the 6.5 a lot and will continue to shoot it for the foreseeable future but as best I can determine in the South East region the only matches that I can shoot with it are 600 to 1000 and those places are 5+ hours away. So I will switch gears and start gearing up for those matches and build another gun that allows me to shoot and be competitive at the 200 and 300 yard matches that are closer to where I live. Witch are still a couple of hours away.

You mentioned your youtube channel, can you give me the name so I can look it up!
 
alinwa said:
Against my better judgement I'm going to give you a "piece of advice", please take this in the spirit intended.

Much more important than choice of components, more important even than who assembles these components in HOW the components are spec'd for assembly.


If you befriend a winning 6PPC BR shooter ask him to enumerate and explain;


-how the PPC case came into being and more importantly WHY.
-how to procure and maintain a proper fitted sizing die
-how to set your bags.
-etc


My "advice" is to use the learning curve which has resulted in the 6PPC phenomenon and apply it to long range BR. There's a lot of crossover. Harold Vaughn wrote a book in which he took the approach "let's look at why a gun DOESN'T shoot and examine the problems". This is a useful method. The 6PPC properly spec'd and maintained is the absolute culmination, the distillation of 70yrs hard work. (and a lot of by-guess and by-golly) And now, today I can apply these principles to other cases and get the same results. BECAUSE, long ago in a galaxy far far away 2 dedicated fellers decided to start from scratch..... and rewrote the book on accuracy.
Click to expand...

Will do! Makes sense, I also placed a post under the gunsmith forum looking for recommendations on a gunsmith I can hook up with to build the next rifle.

I believe the book you refer too is titled Rifle Accuracy by Harold Vaughn, its listed at $178.00 on Amazon, $300.00 on ebay (used) and up to $600.00 (used) on several other book sites! I'll keep searching for it though, hopefully can find a better price somewhere.
 
Sabre said:
Will do! Makes sense, I also placed a post under the gunsmith forum looking for recommendations on a gunsmith I can hook up with to build the next rifle.

I believe the book you refer too is titled Rifle Accuracy by Harold Vaughn, its listed at $178.00 on Amazon, $300.00 on ebay (used) and up to $600.00 (used) on several other book sites! I'll keep searching for it though, hopefully can find a better price somewhere.
Click to expand...

Wow! I may be persuaded to get rid of my signed edition.
 
I believe the entire content of 'Rifle Accuracy Facts' is available to read online for free. I've a friend reading it online right now, I'll ask him.

Boyd Allen will know also.

Not to gloat..... but I've got two signed editions still wrapped in plastic :) and a couple 'readers'..... one on the bookshelf, one edition getting pretty dogeared from me loaning it out and mailing it around for friends to read....

And the last 5 copies of Henderson's "Marine Sniper, 93 Confirmed Kills" as commissioned by Brennan in his limited run of 500 that Carlos signed......3 in plastic as shipped. Because my order got screwed up there were 505 copies signed. The Bro's Chandler had to wake him up in his hospital bed to get the signatures for mine.....I'll never forget Rocky drawling "well $#!t, I guess we could go see if we can wake him up!"


My channel (at least I HOPE it's active! I haven't cracked 'er open in more than a year!) is opinionsby____al

that's opinionsby underscore underscore underscore underscore al

I made it very hard to find cuz I detest 'fans'.... also, before anyone comments on how it's "boring" or "kludgy" or "it needs an editor" be advised THIS IS ALL RAW FOOTAGE!!! There has been not ONE DROP of editing done nor have I attempted to order/reference/index anything. You're on your own in a morass of myass-ininity

if you watch enough you'll see me stating "I'm not a tuber!"

cuz I'm not.

This is simply a repository for documentation of a few of my ongoing projects. I'm using youtube for my B**** because it's the only dog on the street...There are 6-8 subjects broached, none fully explored and NONE edited for errors or continuity.

This link _might_ get you into the content. After that you're on your own! (some have said that subscribing makes it more coherent, easier to navigate)

linkie, maybe https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=opinionsby____al

I got sidetracked from recording and have spent the last year making my yard into a 600yd wonderland of hanging steel, target frames, my testing range with 2 Oehler43's with acoustic targets to 500yds and free-range targets of choice scattered over 60acres......... and quad/dirtbike/4X4 humps and bumps and twisties.... tabletops to moguls and such. The range pictured in these youtube vids will be MUCH CHANGED when I start recording again!

hopefully soon
 
alinwa said:
I believe the entire content of 'Rifle Accuracy Facts' is available to read online for free. I've a friend reading it online right now, I'll ask him.

Boyd Allen will know also.

Not to gloat..... but I've got two signed editions still wrapped in plastic :) and a couple 'readers'..... one on the bookshelf, one edition getting pretty dogeared from me loaning it out and mailing it around for friends to read....

And the last 5 copies of Henderson's "Marine Sniper, 93 Confirmed Kills" as commissioned by Brennan in his limited run of 500 that Carlos signed......3 in plastic as shipped. Because my order got screwed up there were 505 copies signed. The Bro's Chandler had to wake him up in his hospital bed to get the signatures for mine.....I'll never forget Rocky drawling "well $#!t, I guess we could go see if we can wake him up!"


My channel (at least I HOPE it's active! I haven't cracked 'er open in more than a year!) is opinionsby____al

that's opinionsby underscore underscore underscore underscore al

I made it very hard to find cuz I detest 'fans'.... also, before anyone comments on how it's "boring" or "kludgy" or "it needs an editor" be advised THIS IS ALL RAW FOOTAGE!!! There has been not ONE DROP of editing done nor have I attempted to order/reference/index anything. You're on your own in a morass of myass-ininity

if you watch enough you'll see me stating "I'm not a tuber!"

cuz I'm not.

This is simply a repository for documentation of a few of my ongoing projects. I'm using youtube for my B**** because it's the only dog on the street...There are 6-8 subjects broached, none fully explored and NONE edited for errors or continuity.

This link _might_ get you into the content. After that you're on your own! (some have said that subscribing makes it more coherent, easier to navigate)

linkie, maybe https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=opinionsby____al

I got sidetracked from recording and have spent the last year making my yard into a 600yd wonderland of hanging steel, target frames, my testing range with 2 Oehler43's with acoustic targets to 500yds and free-range targets of choice scattered over 60acres......... and quad/dirtbike/4X4 humps and bumps and twisties.... tabletops to moguls and such. The range pictured in these youtube vids will be MUCH CHANGED when I start recording again!

hopefully soon
Click to expand...

Thanks Al!
 
OKAYYY..... it still works!

I went over to see if the channel was still active and started this video...."The Mechanism of Casehead Separation" meant to be edited into my "Mechanism" series someday. And since there are some references to case growth and casehead separation on the board right now I decided to post it :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alBzU9CI-xE
 
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