Rimfire Ammo

[doghunter]

I shoot a lot of rimfire ammo through my Anschutz model 54 and what bugs me is the occasional flyer that ruins a perfectly good target.

My ammo is 'top shelf' stuff (usually Eley Tenex or Lapua Midas +) and carefully sorted by weight, rim thickness and length from inside of rim to driving band.

This sorting takes a bit of time but is worth the effort, but despite this The occasional 'flyer' occurs. Like 10mm high or low, a big deviation.

I have analysed my technique and after 50 years of shooting I reckon that it is fairly consistent.

Wind is not a factor as I use flags and watch them like a hawk and recently have tested the Annie on windless days when the flags did not move and the ribbons hung limp.

So is it me, is it the rifle or is it the ammo? How does one work out the weak point in the system?

* doggie *

 

[MaxxPower]

I shoot a lot of rimfire ammo through my Anschutz model 54 and what bugs me is the occasional flyer that ruins a perfectly good target.

My ammo is 'top shelf' stuff (usually Eley Tenex or Lapua Midas +) and carefully sorted by weight, rim thickness and length from inside of rim to driving band.

This sorting takes a bit of time but is worth the effort, but despite this The occasional 'flyer' occurs. Like 10mm high or low, a big deviation.


* doggie *

Most top-tier shooters I know have tried sorting and, like me, declared it a waste of time. I have tested carefully sorted ammo against non-sorted and there was no difference.

Your fliers are the result of us expecting a mass-produced product to be perfect each round. I've had 3 lots of ammo in my career that I considered A++. These lots all had at least one or two fliers in a case.

That said, it just points to the insanity of what we do... Time, Money, Angst ... when we roll the dice on each round.

 

[doclu60]

100% agree with post #2.

Scott

 

[doghunter]

Most top-tier shooters I know have tried sorting and, like me, declared it a waste of time. I have tested carefully sorted ammo against non-sorted and there was no difference.

Your fliers are the result of us expecting a mass-produced product to be perfect each round. I've had 3 lots of ammo in my career that I considered A++. These lots all had at least one or two fliers in a case.

That said, it just points to the insanity of what we do... Time, Money, Angst ... when we roll the dice on each round.

Thanks, I am beginning to come to grips with what you said and it is perfectly true.

Today I shot some targets and first two shots were perfect dots, the scorer had to use a magnifier to determine if there were actually two holes. For the rest of the card a tape measure would have been sufficient.

 

[earlm]

weight sorting

For those that weight sort mark and weigh your spent brass and see how it compairs
with original weights.

 

[tim]

Always find these threads fascinating.
Rarely does an OP define what a “ flier” is. I know shooters who will call a hard 9 on a great card a flier…..I tend to doubt it.
If you’re running a good card and one falls way out the bottom,…..likely a bad round, but the high percentage of these claims very well boil down to missed condition, shooter error, ignition/gun issues.
Years ago, a buddy was going nuts with bad ammo, we spent copious amounts of time pulling stuff apart, checking, until he “ volunteered” he rarely took his ammo out of the truck….all summer.
Most shooters refuse to be completely honest, easy to blame ammo.
You reference an Annie 54, a good gun for what it is, but there are reasons you will rarely see them in tough competition. Barrel, barrel/ chamber maintenance, bedding, etc.,etc.
You indicate, you analyze yourself over they years……find a top flight shooter to chip in with the analysis.
Shots both high and low…unlikely.

 

[Paul in Zhills]

I ran samples from 4 lots of Eley Match through my Anshutz 1710 Competition. While the box advertised velocities between 1070 and 1082, they all ran around 1150 more or less, and extreme spread up to 44 fps. That is NOT consistent IMO and my groups reflected that. These velocities are transonic which is detrimental to accuracy. I would love to find some ammo that is truly well below 1100 fps to see if there's a difference.

 

[tim]

You can find ELEY match all the way down in the 1040’s.

 

[PedroS]

I ran samples from 4 lots of Eley Match through my Anshutz 1710 Competition. While the box advertised velocities between 1070 and 1082, they all ran around 1150 more or less, and extreme spread up to 44 fps. That is NOT consistent IMO and my groups reflected that. These velocities are transonic which is detrimental to accuracy. I would love to find some ammo that is truly well below 1100 fps to see if there's a difference.

Indeed.
Never found reliable those box numbers. In fact I din't care when I shot Eley.
It really depends on barrel.

However, when I did check velocity, I quickly found that the same ammo was more or less consistent, depending of the rifle.
So, try those lots on a fellow's rifle and see if they go crazy like you said. If yes, look for other lots, if not, look at your rifle and try to understand what's not so well.

 

[doclu60]

I ran samples from 4 lots of Eley Match through my Anshutz 1710 Competition. While the box advertised velocities between 1070 and 1082, they all ran around 1150 more or less, and extreme spread up to 44 fps. That is NOT consistent IMO and my groups reflected that. These velocities are transonic which is detrimental to accuracy. I would love to find some ammo that is truly well below 1100 fps to see if there's a difference.

If you only ran 4 lots, you didn't even scratch the data needed to find good ammo. Also, your advertised speeds are all quite high in my opinion. Have you ever tested lower speed ammo? Is there a reason, or your 'opinion' of why you feel you need to test higher velocity ammo? Just curious.

Scott

 

[Paul in Zhills]

If you only ran 4 lots, you didn't even scratch the data needed to find good ammo. Also, your advertised speeds are all quite high in my opinion. Have you ever tested lower speed ammo? Is there a reason, or your 'opinion' of why you feel you need to test higher velocity ammo? Just curious.

Scott

I bought this ammo because it was available and figured the published velocity was accurate. If I had known that it would shoot so fast, I wouldn't have bought it. Yes, I agree that my test samples are small. At $15.50 per box, I didn't want to blow limited amount of ammo that I had available to me. I just wanted to know where they shoot. Next time, if I can find some, I will attempt to buy some slower stuff. I'm learning here.
P.S. I bought this ammo from Killough Sports. All of the available Eley Match that they listed had published velocities of 1070 and above. I just went back and looked at the Tenex they have. Most lots have published velocities in the 1050-1065 region. What does that tell you?

 

[pikedrop]

I ran samples from 4 lots of Eley Match through my Anshutz 1710 Competition. While the box advertised velocities between 1070 and 1082, they all ran around 1150 more or less, and extreme spread up to 44 fps. That is NOT consistent IMO and my groups reflected that. These velocities are transonic which is detrimental to accuracy. I would love to find some ammo that is truly well below 1100 fps to see if there's a difference.

In all of my decades of shooting hundreds of lots of Eley Tenex and Eley Match through my Oehler 35P, I have never encountered one lot that exceeded 1,100 FPS. The highest velocity I have ever encountered was 1,098 FPS, and that was with a 'recent' lot of Eley Match #1120-05128. I suspect something is amiss with your chronograph.

 

[blades]

one thing no one mentioned- temperature - which affects everything.

 

[tim]

In all of my decades of shooting hundreds of lots of Eley Tenex and Eley Match through my Oehler 35P, I have never encountered one lot that exceeded 1,100 FPS. The highest velocity I have ever encountered was 1,098 FPS, and that was with a 'recent' lot of Eley Match #1120-05128. I suspect something is amiss with your chronograph.

I mean, not to be rude but you buy ammo labeled within a few feet of supersonic and never figured it might be a bit faster in your barrel ?
Stuff has been posted on forums for years, those speeds are out of THEIR test barrels. As stated, tons of slower stuff out there and you need to test several lots if you want the best out of a platform.

 

[doghunter]

The last lot that I tested was Eley Tenex lot # 1017-03243 1058fps

Now this was by no means the best that I have ever tried, but in this day of ammo shortages it was the last bricks of Eley Tenex available in my local gun dealer and they sold the to me at the old price (as in they did not try to jack up the price to current levels). That's why I shop there!

I realise that the 'advertised' MV is as per Eley test barrels, my Annie has a 21.5" barrel, but consistency is what is important. I purchased it as it (the bricks) as it usually beats most of the alternatives on the shelves which are great for shooting rabbits at 50m but not quite up to making two holes in a target at 50m that the scorer requires a magnifier to resolve.

Sady, Eley have currently suspended publishing test data of batches of Tenex.

I wonder why?

* doggie *

 

[Dave S]

I bought this ammo because it was available and figured the published velocity was accurate. If I had known that it would shoot so fast, I wouldn't have bought it. Yes, I agree that my test samples are small. At $15.50 per box, I didn't want to blow limited amount of ammo that I had available to me. I just wanted to know where they shoot. Next time, if I can find some, I will attempt to buy some slower stuff. I'm learning here.
P.S. I bought this ammo from Killough Sports. All of the available Eley Match that they listed had published velocities of 1070 and above. I just went back and looked at the Tenex they have. Most lots have published velocities in the 1050-1065 region. What does that tell you?

Paul...

Do not believe those velocities on the box.. I have yet to chronograph ANY Eley ammo that comes close to the box velocities, and I chronograph all of my ammo, both RF and CF.. Usually the extreme spread and Standard Deviation are off by double digit amounts, some velocities are as much as 30-40 fps off.. Again, do not trust the velocity on the box.....

JMHO

Dave

 

[TrxR]

Paul...

Do not believe those velocities on the box.. I have yet to chronograph ANY Eley ammo that comes close to the box velocities, and I chronograph all of my ammo, both RF and CF.. Usually the extreme spread and Standard Deviation are off by double digit amounts, some velocities are as much as 30-40 fps off.. Again, do not trust the velocity on the box.....

JMHO

Dave

Have chronographed any Lapua? How does it compare to Eley as far as SD and ES goes?

 

[PedroS]

Chronographing .22lr ammo is a waist of time, like sorting them by weight

Velocities on the box, give you just one indication... better for wind or no wind, if, and that's a big if, they shoot well on your rifle. And even then, it depends, because that's not a golden rule.

The only way to tell, if a certain batch is good or not, is shooting it.

However, very bright mind shooters are trying, and I hope they will, to develop a different approach to sort .22lr ammo. Yet, for me, it implies another bias, as you have to manipulate ammo, and with this picky rounds, manipulating is not so good...

 

[doghunter]

Paul...

Do not believe those velocities on the box.. I have yet to chronograph ANY Eley ammo that comes close to the box velocities, and I chronograph all of my ammo, both RF and CF.. Usually the extreme spread and Standard Deviation are off by double digit amounts, some velocities are as much as 30-40 fps off.. Again, do not trust the velocity on the box.....

JMHO

Dave

With all due respect Dave.

The numbers that Eley (and possibly other manufacturers) quote are from their test barrels are from a machine rest fired at their test ranges under ideal conditions. Often they are from a selected lot# (That's business)

Like you have observed, the numbers do not match the factory specifications but then I have found that Eley, Lapua and RWS etc. top shelf ammo is more consistent (less flyers) than some other brands. It's also more expensive.

I also sort, test and chronograph my rimfire ammo and have noted the variations, they are indeed a pita.

So can you please elucidate me as to which .22 rimfire ammunition manufacturer that you consider is better, and why?

I am sure that many people would like to know.

* doggie *

 

[pikedrop]

In all of my decades of shooting hundreds of lots of Eley Tenex and Eley Match through my Oehler 35P, I have never encountered one lot that exceeded 1,100 FPS. The highest velocity I have ever encountered was 1,098 FPS, and that was with a 'recent' lot of Eley Match #1120-05128. I suspect something is amiss with your chronograph.

As usual, you have posted a reply to the wrong person.