Rate the most popular Custom Actions

[Dave Short]

My question was, to find out what do you shoot and what you like and possibly why so.

Shoot well
Peter

I started with a Stolle Panda, for two reasons: They were the obvious choice in '95 when I got started, and a friend had a 9-year old, but never stocked or fired RBRP for a decent price. At that time, the big aluminum reciever seemed kind of wierd to me. However, I'm a Machinist with a decent practical background in material applications, compatability, and so-on, and I did see the reasoning behind the design. I built my first rifle on that action and used it in competition exclusively for about four years, and really came to like it. When I decided to build a heavy gun, I looked long and hard at the others, (by then there were many more customs available) but couldn't see a good reason to use anything else. I see the large, rectangular footprint as a positive, which is made possible by the use of aluminum....which is entirely adequate for the application. The bushing takes the load, is installed correctly, and just simply shows up as a shaded line where it starts and ends. The integral scope rail is another obvious plus, no explaination is necessary. I built my heavy gun on a RBLP, and liked it as much as the old action. The RBLP arrangement was easy to get used to....to the point that I just had to have a light gun with the same port arrangement. A friend of mine and I had just completed such a rifle (for him) when he had an ailment come up that prevented him from using it, and I bought it. All three rifles have served me well in competition; I was fortunate enough to earn one IBS international record with each rifle, for a total of three....I feel that proves consistancy of the action's capability. I've since restocked and rebarreled one to a different caliber, and I'm in the process of restocking another now. I still see no reason to change to anything else.....what more could one expect from an action?

Okay, Peter, that is my answer to your question. Hopefully some others will detail their experiences with and opinions of their favorites.

-Dave-

 

[Dusty Stevens]

I like most folks started with a panda. moving on I've been fortunate enough to shoot most all of them since then- halls, farleys, swindlehursts, bats, and now I shoot farleys and bats. I like the actions which have been the same since they started such as bat and stolle. the bolts and barrels interchange from any of them and that's a plus if something breaks in a match. that and smoothness is most important to me with looks being a close second.

 

[PPP MMM]

Dusty Stevens-

As a toolmaker by trade working in the die/press/blanking industry for seven years and then working for ten years as an engineering technician on complete lathe, milling machines and precision grinders overhauls I would fined any tolerance in straightness exceeding 0.01mm (0.0003937") as very slopy, especially if taking the size of the action involved into consideration. The materials used and the machining/hardening techniques/sequences don't impress me either.
However it would be impossible to argue that an action/barrel shooting .1" is a bad thing regardless of the tolerances/materials involved.

Shoot well
Peter

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As Me working in an "Exact and very accurate environment" (0.005mm/0.0001968") on daily bases for 21 years (including 4 years of apprenticenship) I know about materials/expansions/weare/hardening/metalurgy/machining etc. much more than you may think. I shoot, but not in competitions, I had 43 rifles in all, from .308W to .460WM.
Shooting some 30 000+ rounds mainly as various experiments with velocities up to 5600fps (Smooth bore barrels/sabbot self made ammo) I can say that, know a little bit about shooting too.
Do I know much about accurate 1K shooting? Absolutely not.
Do I know about tolerances/materials/machining/finishing etc.? You bet I do.
To do a complete overhaul on say lathe, where the beds are 5-6 metres long and where everything (regrinded beds/cross feed/compound/dog/spindles/worms/etc.) has to come up to 0.005mm (0.0001968") in every respect (straightness/squareness) maximum and hand scraped opposite parts to fit in the regin of 25 contact points per Square 25.4mm minimum is a little bit more chalenging than a 0.01mm (0.0003493") straightness in a 200mm (8") long custom action.
When the lot of the smart ass critics here can do only as 1/10 as good I'm willing to listen to their own machining skills/lessons.
Read the threads/posts properly in the first place and we won't have to have this clarifications.
Go back to the right thread (lapping Rem. lugs) read it all through and than ask Gordy how OK it's to file the bolt lugs to get the right answer.
I've called the one who recomended to do this an Imbecile, however you may think that he's a top expert.

Shoot well
Peter

 

[PPP MMM]

Dusty Stevens-Dave Short

I like most folks started with a panda. moving on I've been fortunate enough to shoot most all of them since then- halls, farleys, swindlehursts, bats, and now I shoot farleys and bats. I like the actions which have been the same since they started such as bat and stolle. the bolts and barrels interchange from any of them and that's a plus if something breaks in a match. that and smoothness is most important to me with looks being a close second.

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Thanks for your replies, that's what I''ve asked for in the first place.
Hopefully we're getting somewhere without the unnecessary personal crap.

Shoot well
Peter

 

[Dave Short]

,,,,,,,,,,,,

Thanks for your replies, that's what I''ve asked for in the first place.
Hopefully we're getting somewhere without the unnecessary personal crap.

Shoot well
Peter

Quite frankly, Peter, you could try to come across a little less, well, um, be a little more polite and you will get better responses. There are a lot of people here with a background in close tolerance work, myself included......you aren't the only one. I hesitate to reply sometimes because there is always someone ready to take a crack at the guy who puts it all out there. There are others who see it the way I just described.

As far as the custom actions go, there are a bunch of them to choose from. There are some guys who shoot one particular one, and are always standing ready to explain to the poor uninformed owner of another brand how much better theirs is. I believe that one must check quite a few dimensions & relationships between various surfaces (features) before settling on any of them. Once I'm satisfied that the action is okay, I don't think that there is any one of them superior to another from an accuracy point of view. This observation is supported by the fact that there really is no dominant action showing up in the winner's equipment lists. I have other reasons for my choice of actions; I won't elaborate because I'm not interested in wrangling with guys who don't have a background in machining or even a related field over subjects they've never had their hands on and minds around.

-Dave-

 

[Bill De]

PPP I am a tool maker here in America, I actually do work to .0001" on a daily bases. I see your kind come and go, talk a big game to get the job, then make nothing but scrap. You sir are the smart ass, you sir are the Imbecile. I've had my say, you will not here from me again.

Bill

 

[clowdis]

I have only had the opportunity to use or work on the following action makes, Barnard, Stolle, Nesika, RPA, as well as most of the factory offerings. Top of the line custom actions in my opinion would be the Stolle and Barnard with the Nesika being a distant last. I shoot mid and long range only and if I were to buy an action today I think I would choose either the Stolle or Barnard, but would love to take a good look at the Bat 3 lug.

 

[GS Arizona]

Blair, I think you'll like the BAT 3L, nicely made, and well suited to our disciplines. I'm putting one together now in 6XC for MR shooting (I need another rifle like a hole in the head, but it's a sickness...). I think it's a good "successor" to the RPA Quadlite which sadly is no longer available here and is a terrific prone action.

German Salazar

 

[clowdis]

"RPA Quadlite which sadly is no longer available here and is a terrific prone action."

Let me second that! I have a terrible hankering for a 300WSM and don't know what action I want to put it on yet. Maybe I should have a look at the Bat. I have a Remington action in the safe but my competitive nature won't allow me to start off two points down!

 

[PPP MMM]

Bill De

PPP I am a tool maker here in America, I actually do work to .0001" on a daily bases. I see your kind come and go, talk a big game to get the job, then make nothing but scrap. You sir are the smart ass, you sir are the Imbecile. I've had my say, you will not here from me again.

Bill

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It's sad, that an "expert" like you can't find a good toolmaker in a half an hour verbal/written interview. IF he passes the verbal/writen interview an imbecile like me would know within the first hour if not sooner if this individual is any good or not.
An "expert" toolmaker like yourself needs to give him a job first and than keep him long enough to allow him to make a scrap first to find out what an imbecile like me would know straight away.

If your response is not about an action keep your word and spare yourself from addressing this post, you "expert".

Shoot well
Peter

 

[jackie schmidt]

Peter

You have sparked my interest.
Nesika advertised that their action bodies were 15-5 PH, I do not knowthe age hardenning temperature, probably 1050. The bolts are 4340.
Pandas have always been Aluminum with a alloy steel insert, I would guess in the 140,000 tensil range. The Panda has a Chrome Moly Bolt. Viper is similiar, although Jerry did make a few bolts out of S-7, but I think he settled in on 4340.
Farleys were cast 17-4, at H-1050,with a S-7 Bolt. Bats are 17-4 bar stock, and Chrome Moly. I am not sure what their bolts are machined from.
A interesting concept is the way McMillian makes actions. They use a case hardenning steel for their bolts, (probably something like 8620), leave it relative soft in the middle, and case harden it to around 60RC. This gives a bolt with a high ductility, but with a excellent anti-gall quality.
My question to you would be, if you were to design an action to be sold in large enough quantities to satisfy a market such as Benchrest, F-Class, and 1000 yard,what would be your materials of choice, and what advantage would your choice show over the current offerrings..........jackie

 

[PPP MMM]

Jackie

If the action was to sell in large quantity for sport shooting masses.

For the receiver I would use a Crucible 17-4 SXR (superior to ordinary 17-4 PH) precipitation hardened to H 1050*-1025* giving around 38HRC and V-Notch value of 40-43fp.
A Carpenter 465 would be even better, but lets not complicate the issue.
Bar would be bored first then stress relieved, precipitation hardened and the finished to the final tolerances in a same setup.
For the bolt I would use EN-39B (4.3% nickel/chrome/moly corresponding to 9315) carburising steel. Carburised and then tempered at 450*F to give a surface hardness 57-60HRC and core hardness 40-43HRC.
All finishing machining (precision grinding) to be done after the final heat treatment.

The properties of the receiver would be very much the same as a normal 17-4PH but up to 25 - 30% tougher.
The properties of the bolt would have the same strength/toughness as 4340 but much higher surface hardness to prevent galling.

If not a Stainless steel action a Flexor steel for bolt/action from Pennsylvania Steel would serve probably better than any other,due to its excelent carbide forming properties.
The receiver martempered to 42-44HRC.
The bolt carburised/hardened to surface hardness 55-58HRC and core 42-44HRC.
Selling it at competetive price shouldn't be that big issue, even thought that it would be too fiddly and hard on tools and consequently lowering the profit margins

Shoot well
Peter

 

[jackie schmidt]

Peter

Hard to argue with those choices, the high carburizing factor for the EN39-B, while retaining superior ductility at the core, would be a big plus. As good, probably superior to, S-7.
I had an opportunity to work with Carpenter 465 last fall. We made some large bolts that secure the blades on a large Variable Pitch Propellor.
The material came in a solution annealed state, and machined about like 17-4 in Condition A. We machined the 3.5 inch hex for the head, roughed out the bodies, and then had the blank age hardenned at 1100 degrees. We then finished the entire bolt, the threads were 2 inch diameter 8 tpi, 5 inches long, undercut to root diameter for the last 2 inches to the head, ending in a 1/4 inch radius. After finish machining, we had the 1/4 inch radius under the head shot peened.
The 465 machined quite similiar to 17-4 at H-1050, pretty tough on tooling, but not much more than the other PH steels at the same hardness level. We had to make 24 bolts, and two spares. All machine work was performed on our 18 inch Whacheon Lathe, (a Mori-Seiki clone), and a #4 Milwaukee Verticle Mill for the hexing of the heads.
This is about as good as it gets when it comes to high tensil high impact strength custom PH steels. Since the material was furnished, I have no idea how it compares to the cost of the standard 17-4 grades. I suspect about 50 percent more.
The reason the company went to these bolts was the originols, machined from 15-5PH at H-1000, were breaking at the head shank junction.........jackie

 

[Greg Culpepper]

I've got Panda, RFD, Gilkes Ross, Accuracy International, RPA Quadlite, Anchutz, Python, Tika and even Remington actions. Until quite recently I was happy with all of them but now I recognize the error of my non-critical ways. I to have been an imbecile. Oh, the shame! The collective wisdom of dozens or hundreds of designers and PRODUCERS is obsoleted at a stroke by one who neither builds actions or shoots competitively. I won't rest until I can replace my shabby and inadequate assortment of pathetic excuses for actions with the incomparable "Peter Action". Ya, that's the ticket! Put me at the head of the list. As they say, the check is in the mail.

Sincerely,

Greg

 

[PPP MMM]

Greg

Your 1st half of your post was excelent, the middle was funny, the rest was a response of an Imbecile.

Shoot better
Peter

 

[Greg Culpepper]

Peter,

I hadn't realized I was addressing you specifically. You provoked an unusual spasm of introspection. Just sort of thinking out loud. I'll feel better about myself as time goes on. That's spelled "excellent" by the way, but then I don't speak six languages. And I'm real excited that you think so. As far as my being an imbecile, I acknowledged that in my post and take comfort in the company of the many other imbeciles on this board. Apparently, our number is legion. That should help me get through my ordeal until my new actions begin arriving.

Greg

 

[PPP MMM]

Greg, concentrate on the real stuff

And leave your sorry ass at rest. I'm not interested about your personal problems.

Shoot better
Peter

 

[Greg Culpepper]

Peter,

You pound a mean keyboard. Do you pound sand as well? That might be an American expression beyond your experience. Maybe someone could explain it to you.

Greg

 

[Dennis Sorensen]

It's a little sad to see all the strutting and posturing and lack of courtesy on such a fine forum...

 

[jackie schmidt]

Come On Guys.........

Let's lighten up a little.
Peter, I respect your skills as a craftsman, and you have some sound ideas about general engineering concepts. But keep in mind, if others can not stand to listen to you, you will never be able to get them to understand what you are saying.
I have no idea who you are, and I have no idea where you are from. But I can say this. Judging by the way you react in conversations, you come off as rather crass and arrogant. These are not desireable traits when entering into conversations where information is shared.
This might go over well on other web sites, but on Benchrest.com, we try to remain civil, and act like gentlemen. ........jackie