Powder Scales @ Shortrange Benchrest Matches

I can't picture HFV using a Chargemaster

I can picture HFV and I can picture a Chargemaster...but can't imagine the two together. Makes my head swim - faster.
 
i suppose it matters how good you are and what powder you use.
n133 does not throw well at all, but shoots ok with bad throws....we are talking plus or minus .2/.3......
so if you want to stay in the hunt i would suggest a chargemaster for range or home......
( now if you use a std beam scale to check with good luck..it is only plus or minus 0.1 so you can be off 0.2)
if shooting oem 8208/thunderbird...thrown can easily be less than plus or minus 0.1 so you are ok...
the new imr 8208 will be close but not as good, and the new T powder is an unknown....but sosund like it may throw well from its description.
mike in co
 
mike in co said:
i suppose it matters how good you are and what powder you use.
n133 does not throw well at all, but shoots ok with bad throws....we are talking plus or minus .2/.3......
so if you want to stay in the hunt i would suggest a chargemaster for range or home......
( now if you use a std beam scale to check with good luck..it is only plus or minus 0.1 so you can be off 0.2)
if shooting oem 8208/thunderbird...thrown can easily be less than plus or minus 0.1 so you are ok...
the new imr 8208 will be close but not as good, and the new T powder is an unknown....but sosund like it may throw well from its description.
mike in co
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Lime Green again... I disagree w/ getting .2-.3 variation w/a thrower. I have shown friends of mine, on several occasions, (weighing w/balance & digital scales) the thrower consistantly produces charges dead on , over 80%. Also, if the charge was not dead on, it was w/in .1gr. I have never tried/weighed at a match, where conditions in the loading area were the exact same as in my reloading shack. Thanks for the reply Mike
 
And I guess, "ole cook and bottle washer" , pizza eating, nuclear operater, coffee addict friend of mine, knows me as well as anyone. (NO GREEN MACHINE on my loading table)
Need some fatboys, Wilbur,,,, everything else wobbles down my barrel.
Wilbur said:
I can picture HFV and I can picture a Chargemaster...but can't imagine the two together. Makes my head swim - faster.
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well if 80% is good for you go with it...false sense of security...
several of us with lab scales have thrown various powders...and the the results are clear. n133 thows poorly.....plus or minus .2/.3 are not uncommon( as in well within your other 20%)
please note i said n133...other powders throw different. your beam scale is only plus or minus .1 so the math says you can be off .2 on several throws.
your electronic, unless a lab scale, is the same, maybe worse. some are step function at .1...so easy to be off a bunch.
bottom line...with a beam or a .1 electronic you do not know where you are at ......0.2 is the best you can be........
its the math , not an opinion.
mike in co
HFV said:
Lime Green again... I disagree w/ getting .2-.3 variation w/a thrower. I have shown friends of mine, on several occasions, (weighing w/balance & digital scales) the thrower consistantly produces charges dead on , over 80%. Also, if the charge was not dead on, it was w/in .1gr. I have never tried/weighed at a match, where conditions in the loading area were the exact same as in my reloading shack. Thanks for the reply Mike
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KeithBB said:
Tommy----you make me laugh so hard that my drink comes out my nose.
Boyd---- please clear up my befundled mind----what is new T? what is the lot designation(etc.) on the Canadian 2015
funny thing----got a reply from Bill Gammon, he can't get 2015

Cordially,
Keith in NC
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Don't laugh Mr. Hansley ,, powdaa is not a laughing matter. Also just FYI, we've bought the lathe, but I'm scared to turn it on, 'cause I may get my arm caught,, go round and round,, and get metal shavings on my double knit britches.
 
mike in co said:
well if 80% is good for you go with it...false sense of security...
several of us with lab scales have thrown various powders...and the the results are clear. n133 thows poorly.....plus or minus .2/.3 are not uncommon( as in well within your other 20%)
please note i said n133...other powders throw different. your beam scale is only plus or minus .1 so the math says you can be off .2 on several throws.
your electronic, unless a lab scale, is the same, maybe worse. some are step function at .1...so easy to be off a bunch.
bottom line...with a beam or a .1 electronic you do not know where you are at ......0.2 is the best you can be........
its the math , not an opinion.
mike in co
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This is fact, not an opinion ,, a shooter that just finished 25 shots on record(five , five shot groups), dropped his powder w/Culver, Harrells or even a toy backhoe, was awarded a 1st place pine board,,, how do we know his charges were not off .2-.3 gr. We don't,,, that is fact, not opinion. Another fact: If all the shooters bringing home pine boards from a match, had Green Machines on their loading tables, I would look into getting some RCBS stock holdings. May even get a chargemaster for myself. I have digital scales(not saying the brand).. They do not impress me, even in the controlled enviroment of my shack.
 
mike in co said:
well if 80% is good for you go with it...false sense of security...
several of us with lab scales have thrown various powders...and the the results are clear. n133 thows poorly.....plus or minus .2/.3 are not uncommon( as in well within your other 20%)
please note i said n133...other powders throw different. your beam scale is only plus or minus .1 so the math says you can be off .2 on several throws.
your electronic, unless a lab scale, is the same, maybe worse. some are step function at .1...so easy to be off a bunch.
bottom line...with a beam or a .1 electronic you do not know where you are at ......0.2 is the best you can be........
its the math , not an opinion.
mike in co
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Mike, sorry for being argumentative. What you are saying is true and I agree, but my belief is, if you are careful and consistant w/your powder dropping (w/most powders used in BR) you are as well off w/dropper as w/scales. Mostly, a short, fat, extremely lazeeeee person such as myself, just don't want to lug another thing to a BR match.
Thanks for your input
HFV
 
On results throwing 133, with a lot of practice, I have confidence that I can stay inside of +- .15 grain. (I have done better, but I will not claim to be that good all the time.), but not with a simple technique. In my experience, different powders, and measures require some variation of technique, and practice with a good scale is the only way to be able to tell what you are doing. Several other shooters who have tried what I do, throwing powder, have reported significant improvement in their results. To illustrate the need for different techniques, when I practiced throwing the Canadian 2015, I found that I needed to go back to a simpler technique, to get the best results.
 
Jack Neary (a fairly successful shooter) told me that he has all types of scales. He uses none of them in matches however. He just keeps throwing charges from his measure and whipping us. He does not even weigh test charges that he throws. He simply records the no. of clicks and adjusts according to what he sees on the target. Good shooting....James P.S. On the other hand, Tony Boyer weighs each charge on conventional scales and Larry Costa uses two Chargemasters to weigh his charges. They, too, have had some success at this game.
 
"Peace of mind" and "It can't hurt" are grand statements and difficult to argue but not nearly as difficult as "Small differences don't matter". Individuals pay their money and take their chances as they choose. Neither "exactness" or the lack thereof is a significant contributor to wining or losing a benchrest match.

Having time to go see which condition Tony starts his group in is better than not having time. Don't watch Faye cause she knows where to hold - repeat - whatever you do...don't watch Faye.
 
i agree 100 percent, the ability to read the wind, having a quality rifle, and good bullets exceed the powder issue, BUT why leave anything at the table ? why not take every advantage available to the line ? precision powder measurement is just one item..but it is easily obtained. one can hide thier head in the sand, be a lemming and say" its what everyone else is doing" but the facts are that n133 does not meter/throw worth krap when one looks at consistancy. do what you want.

ignoring facts is goning to make you an average shooter, not someone pushing the envelope.
just a club shooter that beats 6ppc's with an ar...........
mike in co
 
I was suggesting that perhaps you ARE leaving something on the table of greater value to your overall agg by choosing to weigh gunpowder. Additionally, I know full well that what I write here is not gonna change any minds.
 
........................................................and we have a winner! Took a little longer than usual but it was worth waiting for. I will have something to laugh about all day now.;):D
 
There was an article on accurate shooter but I cant find the link.
It was by one of the guys who works for one of the highend scale companies.
It showed what the variations were between scales and throwers.
AS much as I hate to admit it Mike has been pretty close to right about the actual variation with scales all this time....
 
Wilbur said:
"Peace of mind" and "It can't hurt" are grand statements and difficult to argue but not nearly as difficult as "Small differences don't matter". Individuals pay their money and take their chances as they choose. Neither "exactness" or the lack thereof is a significant contributor to wining or losing a benchrest match.

Having time to go see which condition Tony starts his group in is better than not having time. Don't watch Faye cause she knows where to hold - repeat - whatever you do...don't watch Faye.
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Peace of mind is two locks and a live guard on the door of your loading shack, where your great hoard of T-32, Scott 322, and Scottish H-322 is stored.
 
JD Mock said:
Jack Neary (a fairly successful shooter) told me that he has all types of scales. He uses none of them in matches however. He just keeps throwing charges from his measure and whipping us. He does not even weigh test charges that he throws. He simply records the no. of clicks and adjusts according to what he sees on the target. Good shooting....James P.S. On the other hand, Tony Boyer weighs each charge on conventional scales and Larry Costa uses two Chargemasters to weigh his charges. They, too, have had some success at this game.
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James, Tony Boyer was winning whe he first drove up, and used a water dipper and a small gourd to dip powder. Me , I'd rather measure my powder w/Bill Gammons hat, the one we all shot up @ the Super Shoot years ago,, than use any type electronic scale. Maybe that is why I was a " meaty-oaker" shooter before I was forced to quit. ( Thanks for the Weaver I purchased from you years ago)
Yoooza good boy , J D
Heaviest Fattest Varmint
 
Gotta toss in this tidbit of information, Boyd according to Lou Murdica last saturday evening at the Cactus, Canadian 2015 is not the new T powder! It is the reject of T powder that will not meet the 1% volume and 1% burn rate that is required by the parameters that accurate agreed too. The T powder that is the right stuff is stuck in Montana right now, and should be available soon. The designation on this powder will be LR-32! By the way I also have both Harrells and a Chargemaster and I still prefer my Harrells!
 
tommy did you ever get my message i sent you a while back? hope your doing good
 
gentlemen,
IF...
the new lr 32 is equivelant in size to the old thunderbird, it should METER well in a thrower.

the xbr 8208 was aprox 15% larger than oem 8208./thunderbird and thus did not meter as well..but did meter much better than n133.

mike in co
 
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