New Bullet Jacket Business

abintx said:
Sorry to take up so much of your time. I'll contact Bart and Ronnie for any further discussion. Thanks.
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not a problem sorry I didn't get a chance to discuss where designs are at....ask Bart what I told him years ago when he first started making bullets about jackets, He'll remember ...
 
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R. Rains said:
I really don't understand why this has to become a pissing match.

Just purchase some jackets and shoot them proof will be on the paper.
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Well, it seems to me that abintx didn't realize who George was when he dissed him the first time. When George's identity was pointed out to him abintx had two choices one was to be cordial and continue in a pleasant vein or get his back up and get belligerent. He took the latter course, kind of like Obama.
 
Jerry, I certainly didn't mean to get an uproar started, All I have tried to do is explain what I have found, there are things I will not discuss either do to involvement with other individuals or Co's. I tried to send a p.m. to abntx to let him know where he was incorrect with his facts but apparently he is unable to receive them. I will discuss any findings I have and invitation is open. After rereading I actually did answer question material, material, material is key runout must be within reason. That being said Ihave seen jackets that have .0001 tir that would shoot mediocre at best and others that have had .0005 that shot unreal.You might recall all the problems we had with jackets about 4 years ago. The bullet maker that was at top called and said he was having all sorts of problems nothing would work. I asked for him to send to me and I drew them back on hardness, sent them back next call was he couldn't believe they were the same jackets. all was good he won next match. I do not think we should have to go through the pain of drawing jackets back, its an extra expense we do not need ..so with the availability of jackets we now have hopefully this issue will be put to rest.. all the best George Ulrich
 
George, some people just can't admit to themselves that they have committed a faux pas. It's kind of like losing face. For me, I'd say sorry, I spoke too soon. I don't recall abints going off this way before. Maybe he had a bad day or something else put a cactus in his crotch. Whatever the reason, lets call it over and continue to be friends because we're all in a besieged group.
 
George knows

I have known George for several years now, and own 3 sets of his dies. I have come to expect nothing but the absolute best from him. His knowledge and products are top notch.

There are a number of reasons that bullet material is more important than concentricity. While concentricity is important, material is more important. Gilding material is supposed to be 5% zinc and 95% copper. This amount of zinc still allows the copper to be soft enough to form well, and engrave well by the lands, without excessive metal fouling. If the jacket material is too hard, your bullets won't be as round due to a greater amount of spring back, won't form as smoothly, have a greater chance of folding a point, will have greater variation overall in the scrunched nose area, and have a greater tendency to foul the barrel. Others may be able to tell you more negative side effects, such as poorer grain structure viewed under a microscope.

While concentricity effects the balance of the bullet. You have to keep in mind the .001" jacket run out, while sounding horrible, only moves the lead core off center by .0005". The actual unbalance is far less, because it is the difference in the weight of the copper and the lead. Another words, where there is less lead, there is more copper to offset the weight of the lead, and vise versa. Keep in mind that the weight of lead is .39 pounds per cubic inch, and copper is .31 pounds per cubic inch. That is only .08 pounds per cubic inch difference between the two materials. That is why better material makes a better bullet. Also keep in mind that a softer jacket material will draw a more concentric jacket, so that is why George says it's all about the material.

I have made my first batch of bullets on the new Sta-Moly jackets. There is no doubt that the jackets are softer and point up nicer than the J4's. Haven't shot any yet, but was extremely pleased by the way they formed. Since they were 30 caliber, I'm sure the softer jackets were even more noticeable than a 6mm. I would guess around 25% less effort on the handle. The early performance of the Sta-Moly jackets has come from great attention to the material consistency, and concentricity.

Michael
 
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The Old Euber Bullets

Years ago, I purchased some of the old Euber bullets. I was told don't spin them, just shoot them.
They must have been made with the best material. They shot exceptionally well.

I wonder if good dies and the skills of the bullet maker play a part in this as well?

Wish I had some more of them.
 
Gary Walters said:
Years ago, I purchased some of the old Euber bullets. I was told don't spin them, just shoot them.
They must have been made with the best material. They shot exceptionally well.

I wonder if good dies and the skills of the bullet maker play a part in this as well?

Wish I had some more of them.
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Hmmm, went out to my reloading shed, rummaged around a found a sealed blue box of 500 Euber bullets. 6mm 68 gn fb lot #160. I think I got those at the first bench rest match I shot at Raton years ago. Don't know why I didn't open the box but I will certainly try them out now. That said, 500 bullets is only good for a match or two and then they're gone. Maybe that's why I didn't use them. I stocked up on Barts bullets at the time.
 
If bullet maker starts with lets say less then great material how are they going to make great bullets. kinda like taking a substandard barrel to a great gunsmith and expecting to get great aggs...skills can be taught and as for dies I'll leave that part alone other than for short range I do not see a lot of magic in nose design..
 
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Right On Mike!

mturner said:
I have known George for several years now, and own 3 sets of his dies. I have come to expect nothing but the absolute best from him. His knowledge and products are top notch.

There are a number of reasons that bullet material is more important than concentricity. While concentricity is important, material is more important. Gilding material is supposed to be 5% zinc and 95% copper. This amount of zinc still allows the copper to be soft enough to form well, and engrave well by the lands, without excessive metal fouling. If the jacket material is too hard, your bullets won't be as round due to a greater amount of spring back, won't form as smoothly, have a greater chance of folding a point, will have greater variation overall in the scrunched nose area, and have a greater tendency to foul the barrel. Others may be able to tell you more negative side effects, such as poorer grain structure viewed under a microscope.

While concentricity effects the balance of the bullet. You have to keep in mind the .001" jacket run out, while sounding horrible, only moves the lead core off center by .0005". The actual unbalance is far less, because it is the difference in the weight of the copper and the lead. Another words, where there is less lead, there is more copper to offset the weight of the lead, and vise versa. Keep in mind that the weight of lead is .39 pounds per cubic inch, and copper is .31 pounds per cubic inch. That is only .08 pounds per cubic inch difference between the two materials. That is why better material makes a better bullet. Also keep in mind that a softer jacket material will draw a more concentric jacket, so that is why George says it's all about the material.

I have made my first batch of bullets on the new Sta-Moly jackets. There is no doubt that the jackets are softer and point up nicer than the J4's. Haven't shot any yet, but was extremely pleased by the way they formed. Since they were 30 caliber, I'm sure the softer jackets were even more noticeable than a 6mm. I would guess around 25% less effort on the handle. The early performance of the Sta-Moly jackets has come from great attention to the material consistency, and concentricity.

Michael
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Well said Mike. :) I always look forward to visiting with you at Raton. I also watch for anything you post on the forum.

Guys, when Mike Turner takes the time to post here on the forum, listen carefully; he knows what he's talking about. :cool:

Best regards,

Gene Beggs
 
As far as I know

Shooting is the best way to determine a bullet is going to be any use in the rifle - given that the bullet was made for the purpose of accuracy. Bullets are funny things in terms of how they act here and there. I made some fat bullets once that would shoot extremely well in some rifles and not at all well in others. Either one hole or half inch depending. The only way I could sell them is to send a handful and a lot of folks wouldn't change their neck thickness to try them. But, all said, I sold enough of them to take the time to set the die.

Another story....I measured some J-4 jackets I received and they were WAY off the norm. After an "argument" with the seller I sent them back. Turns out, they were some of the better shooting jackets ever made...sooooo.....something ain't just right with measuring jacket thickness to pre-determine the accuracy.
 
Here is a link to another message board with a thread started by Whiskey3Outdoors. The Facebook link for his John Allen Culpepper mentioned Whiskey 3 Precision Systems LLC. He 's talking about a bullet they are putting out. I don't see any mention of jackets.

Maybe we'll hear more when the website is back up.

http://www.300blktalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=151&t=89358
 
I don't know about the new jacket manufacture but the more the merrier! As for getting the concintriy and material right. I'd say my Bart's Premier Jackets and Sta-Moly jackets have the right stuff. I can go through a pretty impressive list of wins, teen aggs, teen grand aggs and teen 2 gun wins as well as, Hall of fame points and 2 and 4 Gun wins at the IBS Nationals with my jackets. The impressive thing is they have only been on the market since March of this year.

I'm riding back from a match at Riverbend Ga, where Billy Stevens just shot 2 teen grands and of course a teen 2 gun with my jackets and bullets.

Right now more than ever is a golden age for bullet jackets and bullet makers.

Bart Sauter

The Proof is in the results.

 
Wow.
"The Golden age of Bullet Making". I thought I had missed it.
Now. It would be nice to get the Steel Manufacturers to make quality steel. Not JUNK.
I had to go to a barrel with over 4000 rounds this weekend. That's 2 bad barrels in a year.

The idea of buying something, till the good stuff gets out is over.
The Human race is more advanced than that. People know when it's junk real quick.

MHO.
Tim B.
 
A barrel with over 4000 rounds, WOW ! And it still shoots competitively?

Barrel life depends somewhat on how it is used. Run it wide open and it will not last long. that's fer sher!!
 
JerrySharrett said:
A barrel with over 4000 rounds, WOW ! And it still shoots competitively?

Barrel life depends somewhat on how it is used. Run it wide open and it will not last long. that's fer sher!!
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id be willing to bet Jerry, those teen aggs posted above were shot with barrels with less than 4k rds down the pipe. I guess its all according to the company you keep. I've never been able to keep shooting one past 2k or 1800- no sense in wasting components if it wont win.
 
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