Neck Tension?

1000 yard shooting

i saw a friend use a device to measure the force it take to seat his bullets.from what i saw and the groups he shoots at 1000 yare and 100 yards it is important to get this right so the neck tenstion is consistant round to round.this is my thoughts on this matter.
\gary b
 
i saw a friend use a device to measure the force it take to seat his bullets.from what i saw and the groups he shoots at 1000 yare and 100 yards it is important to get this right so the neck tenstion is consistant round to round.this is my thoughts on this matter.
\gary b

Just because a shooter used a particular tool or technique and then proceeded to shoot exceptionally well, doesn't necessarily mean that what he did resulted in what you saw. There are a lot of components involved in precision accuracy. There are a helluvalotta things that benchrest shooters do that possibly don't show up on targets, but we do them because we think it matters. Also, a lot of things that appear to matter in long range don't translate to short range. My own personal heresy is that it's the wind that matters. You can do all the anal retentive stuff in the world and miss a 45º switch on the 4th flag and lose the match. Paraphrase from James Carville IIRC......it's the wind stupid".

Rick
 
Just because a shooter used a particular tool or technique and then proceeded to shoot exceptionally well, doesn't necessarily mean that what he did resulted in what you saw. There are a lot of components involved in precision accuracy. There are a helluvalotta things that benchrest shooters do that possibly don't show up on targets, but we do them because we think it matters. Also, a lot of things that appear to matter in long range don't translate to short range. My own personal heresy is that it's the wind that matters. You can do all the anal retentive stuff in the world and miss a 45º switch on the 4th flag and lose the match. Paraphrase from James Carville IIRC......it's the wind stupid".

Rick

Rick, Really? Did you try them to make a statement like that? SR. loading practice is very crude compared to what you need to do at long range. Wind at 1000 is ten times what you you contend with and we don't have a field full daisy wheels to look at, or see bullet holes. You sure need to learn to read mirage, the path of the bullet is nowhere near the height of the range flags....... jim
 
Rick, Really? Did you try them to make a statement like that? SR. loading practice is very crude compared to what you need to do at long range. Wind at 1000 is ten times what you you contend with and we don't have a field full daisy wheels to look at, or see bullet holes. You sure need to learn to read mirage, the path of the bullet is nowhere near the height of the range flags....... jim

Jim,
You might want to reread what I said.

Rick
 
Yeah but, it all starts with neck tension.
And exact powder measuring.
And bullet weight.
And bullet jump.
And all that other stuff.
Plus 1000 yarders use a bigger target.

10 times the distance,10 times the conditions, no sea of wind flags and you can't see the holes and you are pre loaded. How many measure and sort bullets?how many weigh primers? how many weigh powder to the .01? how many anneal?....... jim
 
Jim,
You might want to reread what I said.

Rick

Rick, the tool ..... measures seating force.. seating force is uniformity in neck tension........ annealing gives more uniform neck tension. Just because Lapua annealing looks nice it not always right, I was having failures fire forming new brass till I annealed the new brass..... jim
 
neck

t j jackson of short range fame and a noted gunsmith did a aricle on necks with the 6 mm br.he stated that to get groups in the 0s you must pay close attention to the necks and do every thing you can to make them consistent.
gary b
 
Rick, the tool ..... measures seating force.. seating force is uniformity in neck tension........ annealing gives more uniform neck tension. Just because Lapua annealing looks nice it not always right, I was having failures fire forming new brass till I annealed the new brass..... jim

Alright, since you either can't or won't reread what I said, I'll try and make it clearer. I do know what the tool is and how it works. What I said is that most of this stuff won't show up at short range. It gets lost in the noise and if you miss a slight change in a flag it will do more damage than all that stuff that works at long range. I have no problem or disagreement with all the tiny things that long range shooters do. Get over yourself.

Rick
 
Rick, the tool ..... measures seating force.. seating force is uniformity in neck tension........ annealing gives more uniform neck tension. Just because Lapua annealing looks nice it not always right, I was having failures fire forming new brass till I annealed the new brass..... jim
I hadn't thought about annealing new brass. Now with the amp I may just do that as I need to make 100 new cases for my 30BR. I ran the Aztec analyze on my current brass, annealed them and used them today at a match. Shot much better than I did at Tomball last week. Too soon to claim total victory for the Amp, but it looks promising.
 
Interesting one here

Just because a shooter used a particular tool or technique and then proceeded to shoot exceptionally well, doesn't necessarily mean that what he did resulted in what you saw. There are a lot of components involved in precision accuracy. There are a helluvalotta things that benchrest shooters do that possibly don't show up on targets, but we do them because we think it matters. Also, a lot of things that appear to matter in long range don't translate to short range. My own personal heresy is that it's the wind that matters. You can do all the anal retentive stuff in the world and miss a 45º switch on the 4th flag and lose the match. Paraphrase from James Carville IIRC......it's the wind stupid".

Rick

Rick,

I don't find myself agreeing with what you have to say very often, if ever, but I happen to agree with everything you have said here. Good show :).

Pete
 
my PPC has a .268 neck,,I turn my brass so a loaded round measures .265 ,,I use a .263 bushing with LT32 and a .262 when I use 133.

what I have been thinking about trying is to use a .261 bushing in my size die and then run the brass over a .241 .242 or .243 mandrel ,,I havent gotten the tools to try it yet but it seems to me the tension would be more consistent with the last step to be sized from the inside,,as long as it doesnt induce any runout problems,,
 
All of the replies state forces necessary to move the bullet in a static situation. Does the case neck expand with the case upon powder ignition? If it does, doesn't that change all the pressure parameters for moving the bullet when compared with a static state? I do not have the answer. I was just wondering if the case neck expands with the rest of the case toward the chamber walls before the bullet starts forward much, thus creating a situation whereby not as much pressure is needed to release it from the case mouth as it would have been in a static state.

Randy says it pretty good....including the part about not having the answer. I think he's closer than he thinks...that's two thoughts in the same sentence!
______________________

Came back to add that I don't know nothing about long range shooting....that's two negatives in the same sentence.
 
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Came back to add that I don't know nothing about long range shooting....that's two negatives in the same sentence.

Wilbur, I enjoy reading your posts. That last one reminds me of something I've often pondered, i.e., how to answer a question asked in the negative -- for example: "You voted for Trump, didn't you?" Or, "Did you not vote for Trump?" I think most folks answer such questions incorrectly.
 
Heard around the range."There's nothing like new brass". Why is that? "You need to anneal that brass". Why is that?
Is seating depth more about the distance to the lands or is it about the length of the neck holding the bullet? Is a coated bullet held less by the neck than an uncoated bullet? When does ignition pressure open the neck and wave goodbye to the bullet?
I don't declare I know the answers other than to say to look at the target.

Brass work hardens as it is manipulated.

Modern case production starts out with a moderately thick round brass slug punched out of a strip of brass.
By using a series of male and female punches with differing clearances the brass is stretched and formed.

It hardens up as it is stretched.
Annealing lowers the brass hardness making it less likely to fracture or tear and also requiring less force
to continue the work of shaping it.

To add to all that changes in the case during firing the chamber of the rifle also minutely changes size under the high pressure it is subject to
during firing.

But you are down into micro-inches of diameter change.
The change can be detected by things like strain gauges.
Capturing the changes in the dimensions of the gauge (it has a resistance element on it that changes value as the gauge minutely deforms) allows us to compute the stress that was applied to the metal since the strain (change in dimension) has been detected and captured.

You can actually put strain gauges on a barrel and detect when the bullet passes each gauge.

Luckily for use the steel is in an 'elastic' mode and returns to its same size.
It actually stretches but not far enough to be deformed permanently.
It then returns to its previous size what the stress is removed.

Bulging a barrel means the stress moved so high the steel was in a 'plastic' mode and deformed permanently.
The bulge stays.
 
Alright, since you either can't or won't reread what I said, I'll try and make it clearer. I do know what the tool is and how it works. What I said is that most of this stuff won't show up at short range. It gets lost in the noise and if you miss a slight change in a flag it will do more damage than all that stuff that works at long range. I have no problem or disagreement with all the tiny things that long range shooters do. Get over yourself.

Rick

Yes Rick, you said it won't show up at short range ? have you tried it ? I will bet 99% of the short range shooter do not have the tools to know it would make a difference. This I will tell you that if you take your loading practices and the way you build rifles to long range I know it will not work. The only thing that carries through is bench manners, Remember no holes to seen going back to the sighter and no sea of daisy wheels. Reading conditions is part of it, A good barrel and bullets is still the most important but you have to see the hit, the gun has to track.... jim
 
Yes Rick, you said it won't show up at short range ?
You do realize this thread is several months old....I thought we were done with this.

have you tried it ? Yes, I have. I the past five years I'm comfortable in stating I have shot more score matches than anyone in the country. I like to win and I don't like losing. If there is something that I can do to improve my scores I will certainly do it.

I will bet 99% of the short range shooter do not have the tools to know it would make a difference.

You would probably be right the 99% don't have the tools because they aren't necessary. This has all been done before. If it worked short range folks would do it.

This I will tell you that if you take your loading practices and the way you build rifles to long range I know it will not work.

No disagreement.

The only thing that carries through is bench manners, Remember no holes to seen going back to the sighter and no sea of daisy wheels. Reading conditions is part of it, A good barrel and bullets is still the most important but you have to see the hit, the gun has to track

Again, no disagreement. It's a different game.
.... jim


Rick
 
Rick , I guess you are right short range guys don't use a GD503 to weigh powder to +-.005,They don't measure bullets, Weigh primers don't worry about neck tension. You can get away with about anything and it will work up close, your big worry is the wind.... jim
 
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