Knowing how Wilbur buys his vehicles, the answer is resoundingly NO!
I was gonna say that but didn't want to diminish Boyd's point simply because he used a poor example.
I was gonna say that but didn't want to diminish Boyd's point simply because he used a poor example.
Last year we gave notice that this year at Denton we will not allow spiked in rails nor rest. There are several reasons we went this way. First we inquired accross all the shooters at our matches and found it was a welcome change. Many of us shoot on ranges all over the country and have found many lose tops, and some so dished out that getting level is a challenge. Tops are not changed very often. We inspected the tops and found that indead the practice was hurting our tops and worse could knock the top lose if hammered. At any rate the shooters showing up at the matches did not mind the change and we implemented the rule with a years notice. We hope everyone will come and enjoy shooting.
Stewart
Stewart
Bill Wynne
Active member
I have tried to stay out of this and learn what others think. I have helped build a few benches of various designs and I would have hated to see some one trying to "nail" their rest to one of my concrete bench tops. After reading through this thread, I have moderated my thinking on this subject. I would rather have new friends shooting on one of my benches than to offend him by tring to correct him. After a few years, the bench top surface can be repaired as alinwa has pointed out.
These benches are made to be used. I will continue to use my pads and welcome other shooters.
Concho Bill
These benches are made to be used. I will continue to use my pads and welcome other shooters.
Concho Bill
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
My say....
An intelligent shooter will set up their equipment to where they think it preforms best and factor in that they may shoot that bench again sometime.
An intelligent shooter will set up their equipment to where they think it preforms best and factor in that they may shoot that bench again sometime.
Bill Wynne
Active member
We may soon see super feet glued to benches.
Boyd Allen
Active member
I think that if properly done, that politely asking someone not to hammer his rest points into a bench top should not be a problem, particularly if this rule is incorporated into range rules, so that the person would have a chance to learn of this requirement when he first comes to the range. If disks are available for those who did not come so equipped, I cannot see a problem. As has been mentioned, for most of the history of shooting rifles off of benches these devices were not available, and as is the case when anything new is coming into general use, there will be some reticence expressed by those who are used to the old way of doing things. Shooters still play games with eye and hearing protection requirements, the former more than the latter. In my experience, ranges that shrink from giving directions to shooters cannot be safely run, nor will they avoid unnecessary damage. For those that contend that in order to shoot well that they must damage benches, I simply disagree, and can show multiple examples of excellent shooters who manage without doing so.
Steelhead1
G Vanlier
Supperfeet Gluing
Since Bill Wynne brought it up, I figure I would add another perspective I learned while at the 3 day unlimited shoot in Tacoma a few years ago, The gent I was shooting next to, John Parrish, sprayed some brake cleaner on the rubber bottoms of his supper feet, he handed me the can and said give it a try so I sprayed my superfeet with it layed them down and positioned my rail. When it was time to move to another bench, I removed my Rail base and the super feet remained in position, which usually doesn't happen! I tried to move the feet and they were so firmly attached to the bench , I had to use a thin edge to pry it up and I mean it was really stuck, so now I always use the break cleaner, and I put a small putty knife in my rail gun box to pry them up when done! Doesn't crater the bench and is solid as a rock.
Since Bill Wynne brought it up, I figure I would add another perspective I learned while at the 3 day unlimited shoot in Tacoma a few years ago, The gent I was shooting next to, John Parrish, sprayed some brake cleaner on the rubber bottoms of his supper feet, he handed me the can and said give it a try so I sprayed my superfeet with it layed them down and positioned my rail. When it was time to move to another bench, I removed my Rail base and the super feet remained in position, which usually doesn't happen! I tried to move the feet and they were so firmly attached to the bench , I had to use a thin edge to pry it up and I mean it was really stuck, so now I always use the break cleaner, and I put a small putty knife in my rail gun box to pry them up when done! Doesn't crater the bench and is solid as a rock.
I saw what happened to Joe Krupa at Kansas City in 2004; I was there behind his rail gun. His base moved because he didn't "nail" the base in on the bench while all the other big name shooters around him were flailing away on the bench tops. And further, that particular bench had been repaired and a piece of the material used to repair the top broke off and the front peg slipped into the old hole. That rail gun was tuned and it was shooting small enough to win. Joe's desire on that day to not dammage a bench top cost him perhaps three Hall of Fame points (the cost of which to get into that position again certainly cost Joe hundreds if not thousands of dollars).
After that incident I believe that Joe started using one of those huge orange dead blow hammers to "nail" his base to the bench, as well as in set-up, Joe bounces the top against its stop to ensure that the base is securely set in the top. He also uses 50 pounds of lead shot on the base. The idea of beating up the benches still displeases him, but it is a matter of not doing it and giving up an advantage to the rest of the competition. (I also disdain talking in the third person.)
I recall Dennis Thornbury describing the ruling later in 2005 at St. Louis when the NBRSA Director's voted to remove the block in front of the rail bases on the bench. Dennis elequently stated that perhaps we, as precision shooters, need to be more careful when we shoot these rail guns instead of "horsing" them around. I was standing next to Dwight Scott (a renouned Hall of Fame rail gun shooter) and his comment was that shooting these rails is a "full-contact sport". Since Kansas City in 2004, using the "beat the heck out of it" method has allowed me to win seven points with that rail gun. Do I still cringe when I pound the top in? Absolutely yes. Do I cringe when the other shooters around me flail away with hammers? Absolutely yes. Do I think that some of those same shooters (meaning those who chase points at the National level) would have a problem if a range were to impose the use of something like Super Feet, when they have had significant success over the years not using them? I would believe that the answer certainly is yes.
I have tried the smaller Super Feet with my rail gun and it seemed to not shoot as small. I haven't tried the large feet, but today I still like to have the rail sit on the bench top. I do believe that allowing a block on the front of our "unlimited" guns makes good sense and would help in minimizing the need to "nail" rail guns to the bench. I never seen any advantage to nailing a bag gun rest to the bench, but I do see a lot of shooters doing it. (My Hayes front rest weighs 30 pounds. No normal bag gun shooting has ever moved that "boat anchor".)
Bench tops are going to take some beatings; that's the nature of our game. As stated above, it becomes a trade off of the range offering shooters what they feel they need to be competitive compared to the cost of the range repairing a bench. I can see the point of the guys who spent time, energy and often their own money to make a nice place to shoot. That is human nature. But, from the shooter's perspective, the cost of a competitive rail gun and traveling hundreds of miles to a Nationals in the pursuit of competition and its rewards dwarfs the cost of repairing a bench top in those shooters' minds. It's a cruel sport.
After that incident I believe that Joe started using one of those huge orange dead blow hammers to "nail" his base to the bench, as well as in set-up, Joe bounces the top against its stop to ensure that the base is securely set in the top. He also uses 50 pounds of lead shot on the base. The idea of beating up the benches still displeases him, but it is a matter of not doing it and giving up an advantage to the rest of the competition. (I also disdain talking in the third person.)
I recall Dennis Thornbury describing the ruling later in 2005 at St. Louis when the NBRSA Director's voted to remove the block in front of the rail bases on the bench. Dennis elequently stated that perhaps we, as precision shooters, need to be more careful when we shoot these rail guns instead of "horsing" them around. I was standing next to Dwight Scott (a renouned Hall of Fame rail gun shooter) and his comment was that shooting these rails is a "full-contact sport". Since Kansas City in 2004, using the "beat the heck out of it" method has allowed me to win seven points with that rail gun. Do I still cringe when I pound the top in? Absolutely yes. Do I cringe when the other shooters around me flail away with hammers? Absolutely yes. Do I think that some of those same shooters (meaning those who chase points at the National level) would have a problem if a range were to impose the use of something like Super Feet, when they have had significant success over the years not using them? I would believe that the answer certainly is yes.
I have tried the smaller Super Feet with my rail gun and it seemed to not shoot as small. I haven't tried the large feet, but today I still like to have the rail sit on the bench top. I do believe that allowing a block on the front of our "unlimited" guns makes good sense and would help in minimizing the need to "nail" rail guns to the bench. I never seen any advantage to nailing a bag gun rest to the bench, but I do see a lot of shooters doing it. (My Hayes front rest weighs 30 pounds. No normal bag gun shooting has ever moved that "boat anchor".)
Bench tops are going to take some beatings; that's the nature of our game. As stated above, it becomes a trade off of the range offering shooters what they feel they need to be competitive compared to the cost of the range repairing a bench. I can see the point of the guys who spent time, energy and often their own money to make a nice place to shoot. That is human nature. But, from the shooter's perspective, the cost of a competitive rail gun and traveling hundreds of miles to a Nationals in the pursuit of competition and its rewards dwarfs the cost of repairing a bench top in those shooters' minds. It's a cruel sport.
Sheet Metal
Just for the sake of discussion,The next time I'm at one of our local private Ranges,I'm going to take some pictures of all metal benches with 1/4 inch sheet metal tops. These benches have been in place for many years. There is no visible damage from front rest pounding.
Super feet would work great on these. You might have to use something to make the feet stick to the metal.
Glenn
Just for the sake of discussion,The next time I'm at one of our local private Ranges,I'm going to take some pictures of all metal benches with 1/4 inch sheet metal tops. These benches have been in place for many years. There is no visible damage from front rest pounding.
Super feet would work great on these. You might have to use something to make the feet stick to the metal.
Glenn
Joe - can you still clamp a block in front of your rail gun? I seem to remember that we approved a rule on that Friday to allow a block parallel to the front and not to extend past the front...or something like that....
The reason that came up was somebody had fashioned a "block" that was a slip fit all the way around their rail base. In retrospect, that wasn't quite the problem I though it was at the time.
The reason that came up was somebody had fashioned a "block" that was a slip fit all the way around their rail base. In retrospect, that wasn't quite the problem I though it was at the time.
Gene Beggs
Active member
The 'Rest' of the story!
Joe thanks for sharing with us in your post #71 exactly what happened at Kansas City. I was watching through a spotting scope as your group formed and my heart just sank. Your experience and well written account of it has given me more appreciation for what you top unlimited shooters are up against. In the future, I'll be more careful about commenting on things with which I have limited experience.
I'm not usually in favor of adding more rules and regulations to anything and let me say that I'm not in favor of making the use of Superfeet or any other such mandatory. Common sense and good judgement should prevail in such matters. While we are on the subject, I would like to see some of our rules eliminated as they are outdated, unnecessary and not enforced anyway. One is the rule restricting the use anything other than "sand" in rear bags. Everyone has their own definition of 'sand.' I say, "Who the 'ell cares?" If we strictly enforced this rule, a great number of bags used at all the nationals would be disqualified.
Again, thanks for responding and giving us, "The Rest of the Story."
Joe thanks for sharing with us in your post #71 exactly what happened at Kansas City. I was watching through a spotting scope as your group formed and my heart just sank. Your experience and well written account of it has given me more appreciation for what you top unlimited shooters are up against. In the future, I'll be more careful about commenting on things with which I have limited experience.
I'm not usually in favor of adding more rules and regulations to anything and let me say that I'm not in favor of making the use of Superfeet or any other such mandatory. Common sense and good judgement should prevail in such matters. While we are on the subject, I would like to see some of our rules eliminated as they are outdated, unnecessary and not enforced anyway. One is the rule restricting the use anything other than "sand" in rear bags. Everyone has their own definition of 'sand.' I say, "Who the 'ell cares?" If we strictly enforced this rule, a great number of bags used at all the nationals would be disqualified.
Again, thanks for responding and giving us, "The Rest of the Story."
I spent considerable time this summer and fall researching new cement benches at our range. Seeing what they cost, if one of my Directors strolled by and saw somebody pounding his rest into the bench top with a hammer there would never be another BR match here. I'm just a little pea in a big bucket and at best a middlin' shooter, but my 13-lb. HV rifle has never once moved my Farley rest on a cement or wooden bench.
goodgrouper
tryingtobeabettergrouper
In my opinion, it's not so much the cost of repair in comparison to what we spend to play the game as it is common courtesy to those folks who spent their own time and own money to give us a place to shoot. We can spend a million dollars on gear, gas and motels, but if there's no place to shoot, all that stuff won't do you any good!
And maybe the most important thing that no one has mentioned yet is how the other people who use the ranges view Benchrest Shooters. I know at our range, the first few pits in the brand new concrete made us very unpopular with the local crowd..........even though the BR shooters were the ones who built the darn things in the first place with no help from any of the other clubs!
Bad perceptions at enough ranges will kill our game faster than our bullets fly. Just something to think about when we're pounding away with that 4 pound hammer.....
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goodgrouper
tryingtobeabettergrouper
That's probably because it gets forgotten in the myriad of other things going on at a match. It's not that huge chunks missing from the bench goes unnoticed, it just gets put in the back of people's minds. I know that at the Nationals in Phoenix this year, I casually found two benches that had loose tops and another had pits big enough that my superfeet barely spanned them. I didn't go and complain to Gary about it. I just went about my business. But that doesn't mean I don't wish the benches were in better condition.
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Gentlemen,
Please don't miisunderstand the point of my post above. I repeat: I CRINGE when I see anyone pounding rail guns and/or front rests into bench tops. But, you are often darned if you don't at the top of this game.
I remember shooting at the Crawfish one year in Louisiana. The bench tops had just been dressed with a tough epoxy paint. Our rear bags were sliiding all over the place until someone gave a few of us pieces of drywall sandpaper to put under the bags. (I still keep a piece in my rest box.) Our front rests were sliding around, too. I borrowed a hammer from the guy next to me and I tried to just slightly pound the two front pegs into the epoxy so that my rest would stay put. When I handed the hammer back to the guy next to me and turned back to my bench I could see one of the locals leering at me like the "guy from out of town" who I was. I knew he had to be the guy who put the hard work into painting those tops.
Wilbur, I remember some of the contraptions that my "misfortune" the year before inspired showing up at St. Louis in 2005. I haven't used a front block on my rail gun since then because I never understood if I was legal or not after then. I believe that a straight block is now legal.
Please don't miisunderstand the point of my post above. I repeat: I CRINGE when I see anyone pounding rail guns and/or front rests into bench tops. But, you are often darned if you don't at the top of this game.
I remember shooting at the Crawfish one year in Louisiana. The bench tops had just been dressed with a tough epoxy paint. Our rear bags were sliiding all over the place until someone gave a few of us pieces of drywall sandpaper to put under the bags. (I still keep a piece in my rest box.) Our front rests were sliding around, too. I borrowed a hammer from the guy next to me and I tried to just slightly pound the two front pegs into the epoxy so that my rest would stay put. When I handed the hammer back to the guy next to me and turned back to my bench I could see one of the locals leering at me like the "guy from out of town" who I was. I knew he had to be the guy who put the hard work into painting those tops.
Wilbur, I remember some of the contraptions that my "misfortune" the year before inspired showing up at St. Louis in 2005. I haven't used a front block on my rail gun since then because I never understood if I was legal or not after then. I believe that a straight block is now legal.
Bill Wynne
Active member
Just a though or two.
Why not use some pads of random orbit sand paper with adhesive back. It is made to be removed and replaced. Although I have not tried it, I think it would hold the feet of a rest very well. It stopped my wife's dryer from moving across the floor. Almost all cabinet shops use this kind of sand paper because it works well and is easy to peal off.
If you have a metal topped bench, why not use magnetic super feet.
Why not use some pads of random orbit sand paper with adhesive back. It is made to be removed and replaced. Although I have not tried it, I think it would hold the feet of a rest very well. It stopped my wife's dryer from moving across the floor. Almost all cabinet shops use this kind of sand paper because it works well and is easy to peal off.
If you have a metal topped bench, why not use magnetic super feet.
Boyd Allen
Active member
Frincis,
Surely you don't think that ranges should have to furnish them do you...an item that would cost the individual shooter less than $30?
Surely you don't think that ranges should have to furnish them do you...an item that would cost the individual shooter less than $30?