Lets revisit the IBS 600/1000 DQ rules--kind of long.

JerrySharrett

JerrySharrett

Senile Member
First, I'm not a "full time" Long Range shooter. I do shoot 3-4 600 yard events each year and have attended a couple of IBS 600 yard Nationals.

Now that everyone who attended the recent IBS 600 at St Louis will have gotten their match reports they will notice almost a half page of the entrys were disqualified. That was 32 of 74 entrys that did not get rated in the 2-gun. I feel that something is wrong, probably in the rules, that caused this to happen. I also DQ'ed in the LG competition. My DQ, as were many was for a bullet off the target page. That probably should be some sort of penalty not a disqualification.

My main concern about IBS LR DQ rules did not effect me though. This issue is the DQ rule about too many shots on a target. Heres the thing, if you are ahead of me in the standings and we are shooting the same bullet diameter, I can take you out by putting an extra hole in your target if it can not, for some reason, be distinguished from yours.

I know for fact that a long time and top BR shooter was DQ'ed for having 6 holes in one of his LG targets. The first scoring was scored as a DQ. Larry Schenherst, the shooter, being a seasoned shooter protested, as he should have. Later upon further close, very close, inspection it could be seen that one hole was slightly lighter than the other 5. This difference occurred because Larry was shooting moly coated bullets. What if he had not, or if the other shooter had been shooting moly also.

There are two main DQ rules that should be revisited at the upcoming IBS annual meeting. I certainly don't know a good answer for either of the two situations I presented but, some shooters feel, for instance, that the NBRSA has better solutions for these two. It behooves us to keep the IBS and NBRSA rules very close to the same.

Having nearly half of the field disqualified is not good, IMO. Be thinking about this and discuss it with your fellow shooters.


PS-this is not to be taken as any criticism of this event. I feel that Jerry Kloeppel and the crew ran an excellent match and I thank them again for that thankless effort.
 
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Jerry ...I agree....I picked up on a lil' trick while there.....color the ends of your bullets with a sharpie!!!! It will leave a distinct color smudge in each bullet hole....there are lots of colors available and if you use different colors than the shooters around you it can help solve the mystery of who shot what and where....Roger
PS...it was good to shoot with you there...I like the IBS 600yd format......
 
Jerry,

I think the high number of DQ's is not all that surprising really. The 600 Yd format is tough, and it's not as easy to get on your target like in 1K BR, or at least easier to be off your target. Many folks simply can't see holes and are shooting in the dark. Some do crossfire but that goes away in time.

At least where I've shot, I have serious doubt as to people intentionally painting a shot on someone else's target. As for a need for rules changes to fix such a problem, they are already on the books, and it's easy enough to enforce. If people really cared, they could video the line from one end and then be able to count the shots from each shooter. Problem solved. "Instant Replay" in BR! Whoohoo. Sounds really fun. Personally, I'd prefer to have extra shots than go through that.

At a big event where you want to make absolutely certain something like this cannot happen, you could make Roger's Sharpie suggestion mandatory. Let's say, have an official make sure all shooters on the line have either a caliber change, color change, or enough distance between that crossfire is not an accident.
 
Jerry

Just remember it is too late to address that issue this year with a formal change to the rules.

The cut off has come and gone for agenda items at this Winter Meeting. You will have to wait until next year to start an agenda item to address that issue with the 25 signatures and get to the LR committee by July.

However, probably due and it effects the 1k shooters as well.

BH
 
BountyHunter said:
Jerry

Just remember it is too late to address that issue this year with a formal change to the rules.

However, probably due and it effects the 1k shooters as well.

BH
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BH, I'm not ready yet for any proposed rule changes. I'm just looking for discussion while the 2010 IBS 600 yard nationals is in everyones mind. I just feel that shooters driving several hundred miles and knowing that about half of the field will be DQ'ed will not help future attendance. This years 600 Nat's. was a record attendance so someone told me, I just hate to see it drop way off because solvable DQ took them out last year.
 
If you miss the target, well, you miss the target. Learn to shoot better. I cannot see counting a miss as a hit...this subject really baffles me. I hope the DQ rule for missed shots never changes.

As far as 6 shots on the target that was supposed to be 5...I'll have to research this for 600, but in 1000yd if there are too many shots on paper the shooter has a choice. Without seeing the target, he can either shoot an alibi target, or accept the target with the highest scoring shot deleted and measured by the overall group. This happens if the extra bullet hole(s) cannot be seen as different, and of course if the shooter did not shoot extra shots.
-------------Jeff
 
Jeff,
If you're not familiar with the 600 yd format, it is sorta tricky vs the 1K. I gotta tell ya, having been in the scoring room for a lot of targets, it was not uncommon to have extra shots on the paper. However, in my experience, I'd say that probably 95% of all those DQ's were because the person shot sighters on their own record target during the sghiter period, shot both record strings on one target, or never bothered to shoot at one record target, gawd only knows what. Shot the whole record string on the swinger! Shot the record string at 1K during the 600 yard match, etc. Lmao. I'm tellin ya, I saw a lot of reasons for dq's. Them 600 yard guys just spray bullets all over hell. There should be an extra $5 entry fee just for the entertainment value!

And I saw that stuff from guys I wasn't expecting it from.

Also seen siters at 600 during the 1K match :D
 
I could go either way -- count the shot as a zero and add +2 minutes to the group, or keep it as a DQ. The reason I could go either way is if you miss the target, fair bet that somebody else won't. Yeah, I know. The ones on will all be 10s so you only drop 10 points. At a National-level match, more than one somebody else is going to shoot all 10s except for a 9 or 8. If you drop a shot, you're toast anyhow.

Don't know what to do about 6 or 11 on. There is no way to have a cross-fire determining backer at 600 yards -- how far back would the a backers have to be? 10 MOA equals 5 feet. Is 10 MOA even enough? We used more than that for 100 yard rimfire . . .
 
Jerry
Our club is considering a switch and the biggest complaint is the DQ rule so far.We get alot of wind out here and right now a miss is no points and a 6 inch penalty on your group.
With a multiple target agg you are hurt but not completely out of the running.
We had A shooter recently drive 1750 miles who was in first place overall after two days have a bad round not hit the target.It dropped him down but it didn't eliminate him.
We do not have swingers are multiple targets to fire upon or cause confusion.
Lynn
 
We get alot [sic] of wind out here and right now a miss is no points and a 6 inch penalty on your group.
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A six-inch penalty for a miss at 1000 yards is absurd. That's .6 MOA. Even in 100-200-300 yard point-blank benchrest, a penalty is 1 MOA. A 1" penalty at 100 yards is something you don't recover from. Go look at any PB mach wailing wall.

Given how damaging a 1" penalty at 100 yards is in a point-blank match, a 2 MOA penalty at 1,000 seems equivalent. After all, with a 48" wide target, the "miss" was at least 24 inches from the center. With a little charity, you can let 'em have the 4 inches.

Truth to tell, I have been in a match shootoff (shooting for the win) where misses mattered. Everybody was off paper with at least one shot, so everyone was disqualified -- there was no winner for that match.

But this was with the IBS regular match win-and-advance format, where only 6-7 shooters (who had already won their qualifying relays) were shooting the relay. If it had been a Nationals with 70+ people shooting for an aggregate, you'd be out of the top 10 with any miss.

I'd support an IBS agenda item to change the rule so a miss would be scored as zero points and a 2 MOA penalty. I sure as hell wouldn't support a .6 MOA penalty.

Edit:

As to the "a lot of wind" portion: as I remember, you were the guy who said wind reading was an important skill. If it is an important skill, it should be rewarded. If you lack an important skill, it should cost you dearly - like not winning.

Edit 2:

Just for the fun of it -- We had a Nationals where someone donated a prize for the person who shot the largest group. It was a very good quality spotting scope. The "prize" was suppose to be a surprise. No one was to know it was being given until the awards ceremony, but somehow the word leaked out.

Some people who shot big on day one went for it. That meant shooting for the corners of the target on day 2, without missing completely, which would have DQ'd you. When the smoke cleared, Ed Caldwell got the scope. Figures -- Ed is one of the best shooters around. Just one instance where the current DQ rule gave us some fun.
 
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Charles,
The 6 inch penalty is for 600 yards, there is a 10 inch penalty for each shot off paper in NBRSA 1000.
The width of the official IBS 1000 yard target is 42 inches.

James
 
Charles E
Once again you are not following the thread.
This thread is about the IBS 600 Yard Nationals not some 1,000 yard match you have pulled out of the air.
The penalty at 600 yards is as I have stated.
Lynn
 
Lynn, once again you seem full of yourself. Just what that substance is, I do not know. I suppose I should be use to it, you've called me everything in the book that's printable on an internet forum. I guess I finally have something in common with Don Nielson, even though I can't abide orange.

Fine. It is a 1 MOA penalty. That is too small. Change every occurrence of ".6 MOA" to "1 MOA." in the post. Change the "4-inch charity" to "1 inch charity." The point stands.
 
I was in good company as I DQ'ed as well at St.Louis. Becuase of an injury to my hand I shot mostly one handed and very slow which is a real killer in the wind, of course I may have done the same if healthy. With that said I had one shot off the paper, but I also shot some just plain crappy targets and a few pretty good ones too, but I would not change a thing on the rules. If I had managed to keep all my shots on the paper, I can't imagine anything that would seem more unfair than to place lower in the final standings than someone who did not and that would be a possibilty on a tough match like this one was.

When you blow it you blow it, and thats the way it is. There were still other opportunities to do well, such as smallest group or highest score, which I did not do either. I just plain blew it (did I mention that?) and thats the way it is. My hat is off to those who did not.

Gary
 
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Right on, Gary!

I shoot for fun. I always have fun shooting. I enjoy good company so I never shoot by myself. I have won sometimes and it adds something to the match for me and I've witnessed spectacular performances by others and have enjoyed that just as much. I have shot off the paper or put my record shots on the sighter target and even tried to fireform 22 Dasher cases in a 6 BR barrel at a match and I probably know more about DQing than almost anyone. But I always have fun. I shoot with Hall and Davis and the Isenhour's and the Wagner's and a huge wad of other very talented shooters at 600 so if I couldn't have had fun without winning I would be unhappy at most matches. It's a game. Tell me the rules and I'll play.

Greg
 
Greg, I shoot for fun too. It's just that I've discovered I have the most fun if I win. Well, what's wrong with that? Some people have more fun if they drink (after the rifles are put away, of course).
 
Right on to you to, Charles.

As with shooting, drinking is best enjoyed with friends. Cheers!

Greg
 
Well Ill just start by saying I am a rookie shooter and STL was super tough. If you look at the past results the wind is always tricky there and obviously the shooters that can read the wind faired very well. A 2.5 in. 8 target group agg with a 6mm 105 gr bullet in 25mph switching winds someone knows what they are doing. As far as the DQ rule I'm not sure that is going to drive away shooters. IMO the lack of promotion, vendors, and prizes is a huge problem for gaining new and young shooters. I was at the nationals and the match was one of the best I have attended. Jerry and the target crew done a great job. As far as promotion and vendors it was non existant. The nationals was held less than 100 miles from 2 of the biggest reloading suppliers in the nation. Not just picking on those 2. There was no support from the industry except from some of the smaller companies. It was just surprising to me mabye I expected to much from them?
 
Jerry,

You've shot a LOT of 100-200 yard NBRSA groups matches. How many times do you remember somebody getting 1 MOA penalty, and finishing ahead of anyone who didn't have a penalty? I can't remember any, but then, not really something one looks for.

For those who think this an issue, go look at the SS or NBRSA nationals. Find anyone who has a 1.+ at 100 or a 2.+ at 200. See how many who don't have an such a penalty placed lower. Bet you won't need more than one hand, even if you've lost a finger or two.

Well, that's group. Score is a little harder to prove, the point-blank score target is too easy for direct comparisons. I think it's safe to assume that with 80 national-level shooters, no one is going to come back from losing 10 points on just one shot. Think what you will.

The crossfire problem is another issue entirely. I'd imagine in someone can come up with a practical answer for it, it would be well received.
 
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