Learning to dope the wind

W

WallyDog

New member
At one time I was a pretty decent 100 yd shooter and even led the Nationals for 2 targets lol. My achilles heel was the 200 yd line where I really had a rough time doping out the wind and especially mirage. My local club didn't have 200 yds and every match I went to it was kinda like starting over. That being said I was worse at 200 than I should have been using the same doping skills I used to win many matches at 100.
Is there anything that's been written down that can clear it up some or is it just practicing at 200 in the wind and mirage?

Wallydog
 
WallyDog said:
At one time I was a pretty decent 100 yd shooter and even led the Nationals for 2 targets lol. My achilles heel was the 200 yd line where I really had a rough time doping out the wind and especially mirage. My local club didn't have 200 yds and every match I went to it was kinda like starting over. That being said I was worse at 200 than I should have been using the same doping skills I used to win many matches at 100.
Is there anything that's been written down that can clear it up some or is it just practicing at 200 in the wind and mirage?

Wallydog
Click to expand...



Yep…Practice,with a good set of wind flags at 100/200yds. Mirage is an optical illusion.

IMO,Optical illusions, by definition, cant be trusted to provide accurate wind direction, angles and velocity. information.

Couple that with individual Visual perception(We all see the World differently), and its easy to understand why nobody can tell you what to see when looking at Mirage through a Rifle scope.. Heck, studies have shown that eye witness testimony in court, where there is no mirage, is frequently, unreliable.

Do a forum search,”Reading Mirage”, Practice shooting in Mirage. Form your own opinions.

Glenn
 
You're likely just shooting the wrong condition. Try an entirely different condition and see what happens.

Also likely is that your rifle simply won't shoot well at 200 yards. Given that you are having a big problem at that distance this would be my first guess.
 
Wilbur said:
You're likely just shooting the wrong condition. Try an entirely different condition and see what happens.

Also likely is that your rifle simply won't shoot well at 200 yards. Given that you are having a big problem at that distance this would be my first guess.
Click to expand...

You really need a condition that stays around long enough for your string.or repeats soon enough.

I used wind flags up close and whatever was in the field further out for varmints.

Grain crops make terrific wind flags when they are mature.

The close flags indicate wind that has a lot more affect.
Once the bullet blows a little up close it continues to spread more and more as it progress to the target.
 
Ol' Beggs again.

WallyDog said:
At one time I was a pretty decent 100 yd shooter and even led the Nationals for 2 targets lol. My achilles heel was the 200 yd line where I really had a rough time doping out the wind and especially mirage. My local club didn't have 200 yds and every match I went to it was kinda like starting over. That being said I was worse at 200 than I should have been using the same doping skills I used to win many matches at 100.
Is there anything that's been written down that can clear it up some or is it just practicing at 200 in the wind and mirage?

Wallydog
Click to expand...


Wally, I'll let you in on a little secret that will make a world of difference in your 200 yard aggs. Maybe no one has told you about it but you can bet your boots, those that consistently place in the winner's circle understand it perfectly. :eek:

"So why would you tell me something that might compromise your winning edge in the next match?" you ask. :confused:

Simple; I have no secrets ! I'm 76 years old and have no desire to beat you or anyone else in competition. If I ever enter another short-range group match it will be strictly for the fun of it and to associate with the friends I've made during the past 31 years. We all have our own goals in life and not everyone feels as I do. To each his own. :)

"So", you ask, "What is this highly guarded secret you are referring to?"
You must tune the rifle for the specific yardage you are shooting at.

Just because the rifle is 'in tune' at 100 yards doesn't mean it will shoot well at 200 !
Say what ? ! :eek: Yep, it's true. It was several years before I understood this.

Fine tune at a specific yardage is accomplished with 'Positive Compensation' which is achieved with bullet exit timing with a barrel tuner or by varying the powder charge. I personally prefer to tune with a tuner while at the firing line. Tuner adjustments can be made at the bench as long as the shooter removes the bolt from the rifle and remains seated.

There are several threads in the archives on both 'Positive Compensation' and the use of barrel tuners. I encourage you to read them carefully and if you don't find your answers there, get back to us here on BR Central. There are several of us that will be happy to help you.

Sincerely and best of luck with your journey.

Gene Beggs
 
Thanks Gene

Gene Beggs said:
Wally, I'll let you in on a little secret that will make a world of difference in your 200 yard aggs. Maybe no one has told you about it but you can bet your boots, those that consistently place in the winner's circle understand it perfectly. :eek:

"So why would you tell me something that might compromise your winning edge in the next match?" you ask. :confused:

Simple; I have no secrets ! I'm 76 years old and have no desire to beat you or anyone else in competition. If I ever enter another short-range group match it will be strictly for the fun of it and to associate with the friends I've made during the past 31 years. We all have our own goals in life and not everyone feels as I do. To each his own. :)

"So", you ask, "What is this highly guarded secret you are referring to?"
You must tune the rifle for the specific yardage you are shooting at.

Just because the rifle is 'in tune' at 100 yards doesn't mean it will shoot well at 200 !
Say what ? ! :eek: Yep, it's true. It was several years before I understood this.

Fine tune at a specific yardage is accomplished with 'Positive Compensation' which is achieved with bullet exit timing with a barrel tuner or by varying the powder charge. I personally prefer to tune with a tuner while at the firing line. Tuner adjustments can be made at the bench as long as the shooter removes the bolt from the rifle and remains seated.

There are several threads in the archives on both 'Positive Compensation' and the use of barrel tuners. I encourage you to read them carefully and if you don't find your answers there, get back to us here on BR Central. There are several of us that will be happy to help you.

Sincerely and best of luck with your journey.

Gene Beggs
Click to expand...

I appreciate the candor Gene. I can see that shooting at a 100yd only home range really handicapped my 200. So there is a separate tune for 200yds that has to be done just like it did at 100yds? Makes perfect sense really. I fooled with tuners real early on and made my own at the shop. It was too big Id bet. I used what I had laying around. I do have an opportunity to join a club here in Illinois but its pricey. Nearly 600 first year and over 400 annually there after. Im never been one to take that kind of beating lightly. lol But if I want to shoot 200 they have it available.

Wallydog
 
Gene Beggs said:
Wally, I'll let you in on a little secret that will make a world of difference in your 200 yard aggs. Maybe no one has told you about it but you can bet your boots, those that consistently place in the winner's circle understand it perfectly. :eek:

"So why would you tell me something that might compromise your winning edge in the next match?" you ask. :confused:

Simple; I have no secrets ! I'm 76 years old and have no desire to beat you or anyone else in competition. If I ever enter another short-range group match it will be strictly for the fun of it and to associate with the friends I've made during the past 31 years. We all have our own goals in life and not everyone feels as I do. To each his own. :)

"So", you ask, "What is this highly guarded secret you are referring to?"
You must tune the rifle for the specific yardage you are shooting at.

Just because the rifle is 'in tune' at 100 yards doesn't mean it will shoot well at 200 !
Say what ? ! :eek: Yep, it's true. It was several years before I understood this.

Fine tune at a specific yardage is accomplished with 'Positive Compensation' which is achieved with bullet exit timing with a barrel tuner or by varying the powder charge. I personally prefer to tune with a tuner while at the firing line. Tuner adjustments can be made at the bench as long as the shooter removes the bolt from the rifle and remains seated.

There are several threads in the archives on both 'Positive Compensation' and the use of barrel tuners. I encourage you to read them carefully and if you don't find your answers there, get back to us here on BR Central. There are several of us that will be happy to help you.

Sincerely and best of luck with your journey.

Gene Beggs
Click to expand...

BOOM!

^^^ yeahh, this ^^^^
 
Ol' Beggs again.

WallyDog said:
I appreciate the candor Gene. I can see that shooting at a 100yd only home range really handicapped my 200. So there is a separate tune for 200yds that has to be done just like it did at 100yds? Makes perfect sense really. I fooled with tuners real early on and made my own at the shop. It was too big Id bet. I used what I had laying around. I do have an opportunity to join a club here in Illinois but its pricey. Nearly 600 first year and over 400 annually there after. Im never been one to take that kind of beating lightly. lol But if I want to shoot 200 they have it available. Wallydog
Click to expand...


Wally, not having a 200 yard range to practice on is not that big of a deal. The change in tune from 100 to 200 yards is only a small change; maybe .3 to .6 up or down on the powder charge or 1 or 2 clicks on the tuner. It doesn't require you to start from scratch, establish seating depth, neck tension etc. All that stays the same. The only thing that changes is either the powder charge or tuner setting, but don't try to mix them up. Decide beforehand which method you will use; powder charge method or tuner adjustments. In a registered match, three minutes are added to the first match of a yardage. This is plenty of time to reset the tuner for 200. The advantage of a good tuner is being able to adjust it at the line.

A master always makes things look so simple, and for him it IS simple, because he understands what and why he is doing something. Tony Boyer is a classic example of this.

Several years ago, it was my pleasure and great honor to train, one on one for two days with the Master himself, Tony Boyer. My match performance improved greatly as a result of what I learned in those two days. He did not waste time with things that I was already competent with; he carefully evaluated where I was and what my weaknesses were and concentrated on those two things: (1) He opened my eyes and emphasized viewing the range as a whole and avoid getting tunnel vision on the first flag. (2) Quit paying any attention to mirage ! That's right, he insisted that neither he or his wife Faye, paid any attention to mirage.

Well, how's that for keeping things simple? Huh?

Later,

Gene Beggs
 
Gene Beggs said:
Wally, not having a 200 yard range to practice on is not that big of a deal. The change in tune from 100 to 200 yards is only a small change; maybe .3 to .6 up or down on the powder charge or 1 or 2 clicks on the tuner. It doesn't require you to start from scratch, establish seating depth, neck tension etc. All that stays the same. The only thing that changes is either the powder charge or tuner setting, but don't try to mix them up. Decide beforehand which method you will use; powder charge method or tuner adjustments. In a registered match, three minutes are added to the first match of a yardage. This is plenty of time to reset the tuner for 200. The advantage of a good tuner is being able to adjust it at the line.

A master always makes things look so simple, and for him it IS simple, because he understands what and why he is doing something. Tony Boyer is a classic example of this.

Several years ago, it was my pleasure and great honor to train, one on one for two days with the Master himself, Tony Boyer. My match performance improved greatly as a result of what I learned in those two days. He did not waste time with things that I was already competent with; he carefully evaluated where I was and what my weaknesses were and concentrated on those two things: (1) He opened my eyes and emphasized viewing the range as a whole and avoid getting tunnel vision on the first flag. (2) Quit paying any attention to mirage ! That's right, he insisted that neither he or his wife Faye, paid any attention to mirage.

Well, how's that for keeping things simple? Huh?

Later,

Gene Beggs
Click to expand...
Hi Gene! Glad you posted and I agree, except for the mirage part. There are(the majority) times that I agree with this too...But there are also times when I find mirage to be the truest indicator of what's happening on target. Figuring out when to focus where, is part of the challenge.
Tuners are so easy, they are becoming boring! Not really, but they are that easy to use.
 
I told Gary that I had a rifle that would shoot at a 100yds and not 200. I was a 22PPC and it would not shoot at 200yds. He said, (and not his exact words, but I was full of that stuff that comes the North end of a cow facing South), that I was full of this stuff. He shot it in a match and at 100yds came in first. At 200 he shot it and came in last. He finally said to me that it would not shoot at 200. Gary is argumentatively probably the best shooter of a 22PPC. And of course I was really quiet about the whole thing. The point is I believe that a barrel will shoot at 100yds and NOT 200.
 
Ol' Beggs again.

mwezell said:
Hi Gene! Glad you posted and I agree, except for the mirage part. There are(the majority) times that I agree with this too...But there are also times when I find mirage to be the truest indicator of what's happening on target. Figuring out when to focus where, is part of the challenge.
Tuners are so easy, they are becoming boring! Not really, but they are that easy to use.
Click to expand...


Howdy Mike, Glad you joined the discussion. :D

BTW guys, if you don't know Mike Ezell you sure need to get acquainted with him and pay close attention to what he says. I've been experimenting with tuners ever since I built the tunnel back in 2003. I credit Mike Ezell with patiently convincing me that I was making too big of adjustments and passing up several 'in-tune' spots on the way. Boy, was he ever right !! Thank you Mike. I don't think I would have ever discovered that on my own. I must also give much credit to Rodney Brown and Richard Brensing who agreed with Mike Ezell. We finally mastered these old tuners; didn't we guys? Thanks for your help. !:D

Mike, even though Tony Boyer is adamant about ignoring mirage; like you, I was never able to completely do that. :rolleyes: You're right, there are times when mirage is the truest indicator of what's happening on the target. I know Tony was just trying to convince me to avoid getting fixated on anything except the entire field of wind flags. He often spoke of avoiding 'tunnel vision' and I must have been one of the worst offenders.

BTW, I thought of something else Tony emphasized and that is the importance of continuing your group once you start. He observed my shooting style and once convinced of what I was doing wrong, he walked up beside the bench, shaking his finger, and said, , ,

"If you have to wait THAT long between shots to get that first "thing" (that's what he calls my probes) just right, you will not be able to shoot decent aggs." :eek: "Once you have decided on a condition, and feel it will hold long enough to fire your record shots, SHOOT, and keep shooting till you finish. Watching the flags of course, staying alert for surprises, but for the most part, just shoot till your finished. If you stop for some insignificant flip or flop of a tail, you have to start over completely with sighters, etc., exposing yourself to lots of risk, when if you had simply continued shooting that last shot or two, you would have had a better chance of finishing with a decent group."

And that's about all I've got to say about that for now.

Later

Gene Beggs
 
Gene Beggs said:
Howdy Mike, Glad you joined the discussion. :D

BTW guys, if you don't know Mike Ezell you sure need to get acquainted with him and pay close attention to what he says. I've been experimenting with tuners ever since I built the tunnel back in 2003. I credit Mike Ezell with patiently convincing me that I was making too big of adjustments and passing up several 'in-tune' spots on the way. Boy, was he ever right !! Thank you Mike. I don't think I would have ever discovered that on my own. I must also give much credit to Rodney Brown and Richard Brensing who agreed with Mike Ezell. We finally mastered these old tuners; didn't we guys? Thanks for your help. !:D

Mike, even though Tony Boyer is adamant about ignoring mirage; like you, I was never able to completely do that. :rolleyes: You're right, there are times when mirage is the truest indicator of what's happening on the target. I know Tony was just trying to convince me to avoid getting fixated on anything except the entire field of wind flags. He often spoke of avoiding 'tunnel vision' and I must have been one of the worst offenders.

BTW, I thought of something else Tony emphasized and that is the importance of continuing your group once you start. He observed my shooting style and once convinced of what I was doing wrong, he walked up beside the bench, shaking his finger, and said, , ,

"If you have to wait THAT long between shots to get that first "thing" (that's what he calls my probes) just right, you will not be able to shoot decent aggs." :eek: "Once you have decided on a condition, and feel it will hold long enough to fire your record shots, SHOOT, and keep shooting till you finish. Watching the flags of course, staying alert for surprises, but for the most part, just shoot till your finished. If you stop for some insignificant flip or flop of a tail, you have to start over completely with sighters, etc., exposing yourself to lots of risk, when if you had simply continued shooting that last shot or two, you would have had a better chance of finishing with a decent group."

And that's about all I've got to say about that for now.

Later

Gene Beggs
Click to expand...

Thanks Gene!
As for watching all the flags...I can't agree more with that.
Analytically, a 10mph wind is moving across the range at 14.6fps. So, a flag 15ft to either side that switches in that wind, gets to you in under a second. And that assumes instant response time by your neighbors flag. The very best flag can only tell you what has already happened...Some are much better at that than others.
With that said, it's no wonder we get caught in those switches at times.

I'm as guilty of tunnel vision as anyone. I think it's prone to happen when you practice alone, with only flags in front of your bench. I suppose setting more flags to both sides, even just for practice would be a logical approach to better dealing with tunnel vision.
 
Gene Beggs said:
Wally, not having a 200 yard range to practice on is not that big of a deal. The change in tune from 100 to 200 yards is only a small change; maybe .3 to .6 up or down on the powder charge or 1 or 2 clicks on the tuner. It doesn't require you to start from scratch, establish seating depth, neck tension etc. All that stays the same. The only thing that changes is either the powder charge or tuner setting, but don't try to mix them up. Decide beforehand which method you will use; powder charge method or tuner adjustments. In a registered match, three minutes are added to the first match of a yardage. This is plenty of time to reset the tuner for 200. The advantage of a good tuner is being able to adjust it at the line.

A master always makes things look so simple, and for him it IS simple, because he understands what and why he is doing something. Tony Boyer is a classic example of this.

Several years ago, it was my pleasure and great honor to train, one on one for two days with the Master himself, Tony Boyer. My match performance improved greatly as a result of what I learned in those two days. He did not waste time with things that I was already competent with; he carefully evaluated where I was and what my weaknesses were and concentrated on those two things: (1) He opened my eyes and emphasized viewing the range as a whole and avoid getting tunnel vision on the first flag. (2) Quit paying any attention to mirage ! That's right, he insisted that neither he or his wife Faye, paid any attention to mirage.

Well, how's that for keeping things simple? Huh?

Later,

Gene Beggs
Click to expand...


Hey Gene,good to see ya. Ive heard the same story about Tony Boyer and his wife, ignoring Mirage. Their choice to do so, didn’t have a negative impact on their accomplishments in the Sport. Or did it?

When I shoot my Rail Gun,on those days when you can’t see bullet holes on the target at 200yds, I prefer trying to interpret what my wind flags are saying, without looking through the scope. I dont trust illusions. Its just me and the way I see things. Also,you've got to ask yourself, why would the shooter with the most HOF points choose not to pay attention to mirage?

Glenn
 
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200 yds

Gene Beggs said:
Wally, not having a 200 yard range to practice on is not that big of a deal. The change in tune from 100 to 200 yards is only a small change; maybe .3 to .6 up or down on the powder charge or 1 or 2 clicks on the tuner. It doesn't require you to start from scratch, establish seating depth, neck tension etc. All that stays the same. The only thing that changes is either the powder charge or tuner setting, but don't try to mix them up. Decide beforehand which method you will use; powder charge method or tuner adjustments. In a registered match, three minutes are added to the first match of a yardage. This is plenty of time to reset the tuner for 200. The advantage of a good tuner is being able to adjust it at the line.

A master always makes things look so simple, and for him it IS simple, because he understands what and why he is doing something. Tony Boyer is a classic example of this.

Several years ago, it was my pleasure and great honor to train, one on one for two days with the Master himself, Tony Boyer. My match performance improved greatly as a result of what I learned in those two days. He did not waste time with things that I was already competent with; he carefully evaluated where I was and what my weaknesses were and concentrated on those two things: (1) He opened my eyes and emphasized viewing the range as a whole and avoid getting tunnel vision on the first flag. (2) Quit paying any attention to mirage ! That's right, he insisted that neither he or his wife Faye, paid any attention to mirage.

Tony who? lol. I have to admit to tunnel vision when I am 3 shots into a string. Id get caught in a switch but those weren't the ones I was having trouble with. These were probably load related as they made no sense. I got so I was afraid to pull the trigger. If I had a 200 yd home range I would have burned up a barrel till I figured it out. It was the same with my HBR gun too. I shot a 250 x 21X at Van Dyne Wisc only to fall into 3rd place at 200. Ive decided to shoot my local club group matches in HV this year with a 700 action on an old McMillan stock and a full 22ppc.
I sure appreciate the experienced info that everyone gave. What tuners are you all using if I can ask?
Click to expand...
 
There are alot of

good tuner designs out on the market. It depends on how your planning to use them. Are you going to "set it and forget it" and tune with powder. Or are you going to go preloaded and use the tuner to keep the tune you want.
I use a Darrel Loker tuner and have had great success with them. I go preloaded and live and die by the tuner.

What it boils down to is whatever brand you decide on is RANGE TIME. Learn what the groups are telling you as far as tune goes. I tell the guys when I am putting on tuner lessons to "Listen to the rifle, it's speaking to you, you just have to learn what it's saying.

Richard Brensing
 
Since I am a heads up shooter, I obviously do not shoot mirage.

The best way to look at 200 yards as opposed to 100 yards is it is not twice as difficult, it is three times as difficult.

In short, little changes can result in big affects on the bullets path.

I hunt and pick at 100, but at 200, I Shoot as fast as the condition will allow.
 
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jackie schmidt said:
Since I am a heads up shooter, I obviously do not shoot mirage.

The best way to look at 200 yards as opposed to 100 yards is it is not twice as difficult, it is three times as difficult.

In short, little changes can result in big affects on the bullets path.

I hunt and pick at 100, but at 200, I Shooters as fast as the condition will allow.
Click to expand...

I have a sneaking suspicion that its best to do just exactly that. My worst groups by far were shot after 3 shots in a nice 200 yd group then having to stop and shoot the last two in a "similar" condition that wasn't the same. More 200 yd practice in real match conditions is my best guess for success.
 
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