Laser for setting flags
- Thread starter RLHBUSL
- Start date
Doug Penttinen
"TESTED TEXAS TUFF"
Here is an idea, Since a person chooses to use a laser and he is a one man gang or even if he has a helper and everyone is worried about the effects of the laser and we do have alot of people down range why not vote to either have those individuals set there flags either first or last. Then they are the only one down range since it seems to be faster but might not hurt the person who is walking around or next to the person with the laser with his helper setting flags. With everybody walking around down range and people crossing your line and standing in front of your beam with out knowing it... Sounds safer to me...
jackie schmidt
New member
Francis, not to mention, on a cool hazy morning, they look cool as all heck shining out over the range.........jackie
Laser bottom line
Facts on lasers:
1: Green lasers fall right in the middle of where your eye sees and your eye focuses.
2. 630 nm red lasers are on the end of where your eye sees and your eye focuses.
3. 670 nm red lasers, your eyes percieves 30% brightness and focuses all the energy.
4. CO2 lasers are 10,600 nm and WAY out of your eyes focus capability, it only appears as heat. The high power CO2 lasers will only burn you, but not focus on the retina.
5. Your eye basically quits focusing at 1600 nm, so any laser over that will not be as likely to harm your eye, but you also wont see it. This is what wavelength the military uses for eye-safe laser range finders.
6. FDA is the agency that controls laser issues. They have determined that anything over class 1 is potentially harmful. Any laser over 5 mw will be harmful.
7. Most the lasers that everyone are using are from 50 mw to 200 mw. Up close they will burn paper or light matches. THESE ARE TOO HIGH FOR EYE SAFETY AND ANYONE LOOKING INTO THEM WILL HAVE EYE DAMAGE. Even at 200 yards looking down the beam for even a few seconds can hurt you. Looking at the beam hit a piece of paper a few feet from your eyes can also be harmful.
8. The only glasses that will help are laser safety glasses for sure. Any sunglass that has 10% transmission in that waveband will reduce the affect by the percentage also. By the way, 10% is very dark. Most welding glass is 1% or so for acetyline gas welding.
IE 10% transmission in the green band X 200 mw = 20 mw at your eye, still too much.
Facts on lasers:
1: Green lasers fall right in the middle of where your eye sees and your eye focuses.
2. 630 nm red lasers are on the end of where your eye sees and your eye focuses.
3. 670 nm red lasers, your eyes percieves 30% brightness and focuses all the energy.
4. CO2 lasers are 10,600 nm and WAY out of your eyes focus capability, it only appears as heat. The high power CO2 lasers will only burn you, but not focus on the retina.
5. Your eye basically quits focusing at 1600 nm, so any laser over that will not be as likely to harm your eye, but you also wont see it. This is what wavelength the military uses for eye-safe laser range finders.
6. FDA is the agency that controls laser issues. They have determined that anything over class 1 is potentially harmful. Any laser over 5 mw will be harmful.
7. Most the lasers that everyone are using are from 50 mw to 200 mw. Up close they will burn paper or light matches. THESE ARE TOO HIGH FOR EYE SAFETY AND ANYONE LOOKING INTO THEM WILL HAVE EYE DAMAGE. Even at 200 yards looking down the beam for even a few seconds can hurt you. Looking at the beam hit a piece of paper a few feet from your eyes can also be harmful.
8. The only glasses that will help are laser safety glasses for sure. Any sunglass that has 10% transmission in that waveband will reduce the affect by the percentage also. By the way, 10% is very dark. Most welding glass is 1% or so for acetyline gas welding.
IE 10% transmission in the green band X 200 mw = 20 mw at your eye, still too much.
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mkihne
Guest
Thank you, but some in this thread will still ask whether or not they are harmful.
Thank you, but some in this thread will still ask whether or not they are harmful.
People can ask what ever or who ever they want. They are harmful if looked into and use of them in my opinion opens up the user to huge liabilities. I have dealt with lasers for years and was in charge of the safety issues for a few of our military contracts on them.
I stand corrected. I own 6 construction lasers and 5-6 laser pointers in red and green and nothing I own will burn paper or start a match nor even make your hand warm if held in front of it.
It seems that my own laser arsenal is woefully inadequate!!
I honestly had no idea guys were using lasers of this wattage in the field. I have construction lasers and classroom lasers, NOTHING approaching this sort of stuff.
I WAS WRONG, please disregard my posts entirely.
I would delete them as poor information but will leave them up and perhaps go modify them.
al
It seems that my own laser arsenal is woefully inadequate!!
I honestly had no idea guys were using lasers of this wattage in the field. I have construction lasers and classroom lasers, NOTHING approaching this sort of stuff.
I WAS WRONG, please disregard my posts entirely.
I would delete them as poor information but will leave them up and perhaps go modify them.
al
Boyd Allen
Active member
Jerry,
Thanks for sharing you expertise.
Boyd
Thanks for sharing you expertise.
Boyd
Jerry H
Different Drummer
Years ago before the laser days, we used an adapter to hold a flashlight to the eyepiece of the scope. You would look for the bright spot at the bench to set the flag with. I don't remember who sold them but I made my own. It is just a piece of delrin bored for a slip fit. They are ok for short distances and reasonably accurate. No where as good as a laser but still quicker than hand signals or screaming at each other as well as setting flags alone. I thought everyone had seen these before. They do work with a lot less of a safety issue. I suppose someone could look into the objective lens up close for awhile and be blinded by the light though. Nothing is perfect.
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.... as in don't use them around unprotected people.
G
Glen Oakes
Guest
Very interesting thread.
A couple of questions:
1) does anyone know of anyone whose eyes have been damaged by a laser being used to set flags?
2) does anyone know of any ranges, public or private, that regulate (i.e., restrict or ban) the use of lasers for setting flags?
Thanks,
Glen Oakes
A couple of questions:
1) does anyone know of anyone whose eyes have been damaged by a laser being used to set flags?
2) does anyone know of any ranges, public or private, that regulate (i.e., restrict or ban) the use of lasers for setting flags?
Thanks,
Glen Oakes
jackie schmidt
New member
Pretty Enlightning.
Jerry has chimed in with the info that everybody needs, it is amazing how Facts can get in the way of a good argument. If he says that the lasers that most are using have the potential to harm eyes, perhaps this does need to be looked at to a greater degree by The NBRSA and IBS.
Maybe this is one of those arguments cut from the same mold as smoking in the loading area. You see shooters with a lit Cig in their mouth while operationg the handle of their powder charger. I am not sure if we have ever had a flash fire in the loading area because of this, but common sense would dictate that smoking around Rifle Powder is probably not a good idea.
But then, I don't smoke. I also don't own a Laser for setting flags. I was thinking of getting one. There are those that do will say, "stay out of my business", others will say, "it's no longer just your business if someone gets hurt".
Perhaps Jerry would be willing to write a comprehensive report to present to the NBRSA and IBS concerning what is, and what is not, harmful when it comes to Lasers. then the Sactioning Bodies could make a decision based on fact, not conjecture........jackie
Jerry has chimed in with the info that everybody needs, it is amazing how Facts can get in the way of a good argument. If he says that the lasers that most are using have the potential to harm eyes, perhaps this does need to be looked at to a greater degree by The NBRSA and IBS.
Maybe this is one of those arguments cut from the same mold as smoking in the loading area. You see shooters with a lit Cig in their mouth while operationg the handle of their powder charger. I am not sure if we have ever had a flash fire in the loading area because of this, but common sense would dictate that smoking around Rifle Powder is probably not a good idea.
But then, I don't smoke. I also don't own a Laser for setting flags. I was thinking of getting one. There are those that do will say, "stay out of my business", others will say, "it's no longer just your business if someone gets hurt".
Perhaps Jerry would be willing to write a comprehensive report to present to the NBRSA and IBS concerning what is, and what is not, harmful when it comes to Lasers. then the Sactioning Bodies could make a decision based on fact, not conjecture........jackie
Boyd Allen
Active member
Of the fellows that have posted on this subject, it seems to me that the only one that has specific specialized knowledge about laser's potential hazards in this application is Jerry Stiller. Rereading his post, might be a good idea. As to who might have been hurt, I would think that the idea would be to prevent any injury, including the first one. Not that they are in any way the same, but I can remember the arguing that took place, years ago, when the range that I was on the board of, banned alcohol consumption on the premises, except for special occasions, where no shooting was to take place. It was almost as enlightening as listening to some old shooter argue against having to wear eye or ear protection, even though the requirement to do so was plainly stated in the rules. I should add that at the time I was in charge of the range.
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Stonewall
Guest
Laser attacks on Aircraft
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http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/349414-l-sers-attacks-aircraft.html
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http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/349414-l-sers-attacks-aircraft.html
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Glen Oakes
Guest
Jackie
Jackie. I concur.
I think we need to know and quantify the real dangers and liabilities of laser devices being used to set wind flags.
I do not want to see any of the following happen:
1) Someone be blinded or have their eyes damaged because of a laser device on a range.
2) Someone be the subject of litigation as a result of using one of the devices at a range.
3) See a club subjected to litigation should such an unfortunate event occur.
I think any one of the above three is sufficient reason for this matter to be fully addressed by the benchrest community and those who shoot at and/or direct the shooting at ranges that support benchrest competition.
Such an evaluation/determination would take someone more knowledgeable than me. I have a substantial background in physics but not an expert knowledge of this particular topic. That background leads me to have significant concerns regarding their safety as they are being used. I recognize that some of you do not think there is a problem. Perhaps not. I gather from the writings of others of you that you, also, have trepidations and/or real concerns.
Jackie, I fully support your earlier suggestion that Mr. Stiller and/or someone sufficiently knowledgeable develop a "paper" for presentation to either or both the IBS and NBRSA organizations for further actions on this matter. (Mr. Stiller, please pardon me as I do not intend to commit you to anything. But, your post No. 98 DID presents what I thought was the most factual/scientific info re: this subject.)
Guys -- a quantifier/explanation to what I've just written -- I do not shoot group benchrest -- it's just not "my thing". But, I do shoot accurate rifles and do like VFS. What I've just written expresses my concerns both as a rifle shooter and as a board member of the Tomball Gun Club. I DO NOT want anything to happen that would interfere with; (1) the Tomball Gun Club; (2) the TGC holding matches where you are welcomed; nor (3) the shooting sport(s) as a whole.
I don't know the answers but I think there are those among us who can develop those answers. I think, for all of us, we need to do so.
Glen Oakes
Jackie. I concur.
I think we need to know and quantify the real dangers and liabilities of laser devices being used to set wind flags.
I do not want to see any of the following happen:
1) Someone be blinded or have their eyes damaged because of a laser device on a range.
2) Someone be the subject of litigation as a result of using one of the devices at a range.
3) See a club subjected to litigation should such an unfortunate event occur.
I think any one of the above three is sufficient reason for this matter to be fully addressed by the benchrest community and those who shoot at and/or direct the shooting at ranges that support benchrest competition.
Such an evaluation/determination would take someone more knowledgeable than me. I have a substantial background in physics but not an expert knowledge of this particular topic. That background leads me to have significant concerns regarding their safety as they are being used. I recognize that some of you do not think there is a problem. Perhaps not. I gather from the writings of others of you that you, also, have trepidations and/or real concerns.
Jackie, I fully support your earlier suggestion that Mr. Stiller and/or someone sufficiently knowledgeable develop a "paper" for presentation to either or both the IBS and NBRSA organizations for further actions on this matter. (Mr. Stiller, please pardon me as I do not intend to commit you to anything. But, your post No. 98 DID presents what I thought was the most factual/scientific info re: this subject.)
Guys -- a quantifier/explanation to what I've just written -- I do not shoot group benchrest -- it's just not "my thing". But, I do shoot accurate rifles and do like VFS. What I've just written expresses my concerns both as a rifle shooter and as a board member of the Tomball Gun Club. I DO NOT want anything to happen that would interfere with; (1) the Tomball Gun Club; (2) the TGC holding matches where you are welcomed; nor (3) the shooting sport(s) as a whole.
I don't know the answers but I think there are those among us who can develop those answers. I think, for all of us, we need to do so.
Glen Oakes
Roger T
Member
Saftey should be First. Now a thought/question. Why would it not be possible to have seperate setups (Non Lazer and Lazer) whichever order. With the Lazer setup I see no need to look back into the beam. Simply take a paddle (Ping Pong, Badmitten whatever)cover it with a corse matte (the corser the better)piece of whichever color construction paper your colored Lazer is visible with (a piece of brown corragated ruffed with a light sand paper would also work). The paddle could be hand held or mounted out to the side of your cart. Start at the rifle and follow the beam with the paddle as you walk down range. Just a thought until something better comes up.