Labradar

[adamsgt]

For myself, I tried all this stuff. I've still got the box of stuff used to measure case capacity. I've still got stuff from my primer killing and dissecting daze, I've tried everything listed here and 10 more in my quest for low ES but FOR ME

the answer lies in the use of a good scale.


period.


I still mark cases, occasionally. I file rims, have 7 colors Sharpies, I still set aside and mark "flier cases" automatically but FOR ME,

It's the weighing down to the kernel that gets me low ES. Consistently on cases from PPC/BR to X47L to .308-based to -06-based and clear up to (and lately a lot of) 338 Lapua, 338-378 and blown out 338 RUM's........

It just WORKS, then you can work on the pesky details like sorting stuff and refining stuff.


To The Kernel


works


try it







Don't trust the innernet, specifically don't trust alinwa..... just TRY IT!

So if your scale doesn't register on a single kernel you can't get there. I haven't tried seeing if LT-30 or Lt-32 will register on my lab scale so I'll give it a whirl. Probably would with 4064 but I haven't used that for years.

 

[alinwa]

So if your scale doesn't register on a single kernel you can't get there. I haven't tried seeing if LT-30 or Lt-32 will register on my lab scale so I'll give it a whirl. Probably would with 4064 but I haven't used that for years.

Well, no......since a typical kernel of extruded powder is worth from 3 to 6 fps

getting "within a few kernels plus or minus" is automatically 20-40fps over which you have no control.

And please, if I sound prickly about this it's because I've been denigrated for my stance for ten years by guys who've never tried it (and never even approached single digit ES)

There are some mean people here who grunt and mumble inanities like "but it doesn't matter" and "who's ever won with ES" and "whish't I could afford low ES" and "my mother din't raise ME with low ES and look how I turned out" and such.

And I get wikkid tired of the whining.

Please people, DON'T BELIEVE ME!!!

Try this stuff.

Yes, you need a scale which easily registers you trickling kernels, kernel by kernel.

 

[Wilbur]

If everybody knows that weighed powder is better than dropped powder (and everybody does know this)...why do folks continue to use their powder drops?

 

[Lawrence W.]

If everybody knows that weighed powder is better than dropped powder (and everybody does know this)...why do folks continue to use their powder drops?

Either old habits or laziness or a combination of both.

 

[CMaier]

i would say several different reasons.
a) some do not know/will not accept the FACT.
B)some shoot so "WELL" they chose to not change..its what they "know".
c) some have moved to chargemasters that are much better than the average thrown charge.
d) some throwers do ok with some people,some powders, but not most, so some can throw.
e) some are not good enough to tel the difference....so it is not a FACT to them.
F) some do not understand the possible improvement. if they shoot .15, they cannot wrap their head
around the possibility that improved powder accuracy might give them .125..small but noticable.

 

[Wilbur]

In my case it's laziness...plus, if the wind blows a little I don't think it matters much (100/200yds). That's just me and I ain't arguing with anybody.

 

[mturner]

Well Coverd

i would say several different reasons.
a) some do not know/will not accept the FACT.
B)some shoot so "WELL" they chose to not change..its what they "know".
c) some have moved to chargemasters that are much better than the average thrown charge.
d) some throwers do ok with some people,some powders, but not most, so some can throw.
e) some are not good enough to tel the difference....so it is not a FACT to them.
F) some do not understand the possible improvement. if they shoot .15, they cannot wrap their head
around the possibility that improved powder accuracy might give them .125..small but noticable.

The last two guys did a great job of covering the reasons why most people don't weigh charges down to the smallest detectable amount. I DO weigh my charges on a scale that goes down to .002gr and have seen a noticeable improvement. The last two times that I won the two-gun, I used weighed charges. It just works. The ONLY time I don't weigh charges is when I get lazy. Sometimes this will happen after making a big mistake, and take away any chance I have of a top finish. There are other secrets concerning weighed charges, but some secrets are best to hold on to.

Michael

 

[alinwa]

If everybody knows that weighed powder is better than dropped powder (and everybody does know this)...why do folks continue to use their powder drops?

First of all, "everybody doesn't know" and secondly, for point blank BR 99% of all the winning in history has been done with inaccurate charges.

And will continue to be.

This isn't news.

In most cases, especially for traditional load-as-you-go shoots there's simply no reason not to drop charges, also using scales of any sort in the wind is a total pita.

99.9% of all the shooters on the planet will NEVER find need to weigh charges. And 100/200 group shooters will continue to win with thrown charges. For a bunch of reasons, not the least of which is simply the ease of following the condition, keeping on top all day. I don't weigh the charges for my PPC's when shooting 100/200 with light bullets. It ain't even fun to shoot that way, and IMO the gain is minuscule at best. I'd 'way rather klikkety-klak a measure and chase the dot.....and making a good gun shoot dots is pretty easy under controlled conditions.

Score shooting is a little different, and long-range shooting is a lot different.

I've never had opportunity to shoot a Hunter Match but in working out with my 30's (I've got several HBR legal prototype chamberings) it's astoundingly aggravating. I can shoot little round BUGS, but watch me chase those X's around the paper and you'll think I'm shooting a 30-30, NOT like Michael's

And FOR ME, a complete neophyte, a backyard experimenter, NEVER BEEN TO A SCORE MATCH, I find weighing these charges makes me hit more X's. It's dead easy to make my 30's shoot round holes, but NOT EASY to hit beaucoup X's. I've got some perty weird ideas as to why, but suffice it to say that FOR ME a rifle that shoots groups easy doesn't always walk the X's easy......and FOR ME weighing these charges just makes to gun handle easier. MOVE easier and hit where I want it to hit.

 

[alinwa]

BTW.......one odd thing I do while, and after, shooting a 6PPC or the like with thrown charges is to weigh the loads, lot numbers and jot down condition info for that day. In other words, while thrown charges are fine, IMO it's important to know WHAT the thrown charge is.

Sure saves wear and tear when one picks up a barrel that's been set aside for a while......to know not only what it might like, but how to get started instead of blowing 20rds down the tube to find a starting point.

 

[MilGunsmith]

What kind of scale are you using that is accurate to .002gr? We have Sartorius lab scales with wind shields on granite tables in a climate controlled load room, and they only go to .02gr. I checked some thrown charges yesterday and the day before from a custom powder measure, first day at 42.5% humidity, it averaged 234.5grs, next day at 70% humidity it averaged 237.4grs. No changes to measure and the same lot of powder from the same can. Years ago the owner of GOEX powder said to use a measure for black powder since weights would vary due to humidity and you need to keep the same volume of chemicals in the load. Using an old Lyman 55 powder measure with FFFg I have gotten SD of 6 or less in a test barrel.

 

[mturner]

Weighed Charges

What kind of scale are you using that is accurate to .002gr? We have Sartorius lab scales with wind shields on granite tables in a climate controlled load room, and they only go to .02gr. I checked some thrown charges yesterday and the day before from a custom powder measure, first day at 42.5% humidity, it averaged 234.5grs, next day at 70% humidity it averaged 237.4grs. No changes to measure and the same lot of powder from the same can. Years ago the owner of GOEX powder said to use a measure for black powder since weights would vary due to humidity and you need to keep the same volume of chemicals in the load. Using an old Lyman 55 powder measure with FFFg I have gotten SD of 6 or less in a test barrel.

My scale is also a Sartorius. It also has the glass wind shields. The resolution is .002 grains, or .0001 grams. We do not weigh our powder charges to .002 grains. We can get down to one kernel, which is plus or minus about .006 grains with small grain powders. You cannot weigh down to the resolution of the scale. Temperature and humidity will change the weight of a thrown charge by a fair amount. I throw light, and trickle up to weight. For those last few kernels, I put a small amount of powder on the work surface and push the tip of my finger against it to pick up anywhere from 1 to 3 kernels so I can finish off the charge. I weigh about 10 charges, dumping each charge into the case and seating the bullets in one loading session, and shoot the match. It's not about weighing the exact amount of powder over different time periods, but making that batch of 10 or so charges as close to the same as possible. You never weigh charges over a long period of time with humidity changes and expect to actually have the same amount of powder. When throwing charges, a temperature increase will cause the powder to expand, and you will throw lighter charges. Humidity will also change the weight and burn rate of the powder. Drier powder will produce higher velocities. At Raton, I have to deal with wind currents in the building when it is windy outdoors, but choosing the right loading bench goes a long way toward solving this issue. I do not weigh charges outdoors because the scale becomes to unstable. For those situations where it is impossible to weigh at the range, I weigh back at the motel room, and put the powder in test tubes. I have 400 test tubes in ammo MTM ammo boxes that are 10mm diameter by 3 inches long. The only problem with weighing at the room, is I have to weigh batches of different weights so I can change the load if necessary. How do I know that I'm really getting better powder charges? Because the chronograph velocities have incredibly low ES. Look back further in this post for an example of Labradar velocities produced from my 30-30 with range weighed charges. I typically get about 5 fps ES. The only other problems with weighing at the room is how time consuming it is to weigh 100 or more charges. You get back to the room, you are tired, you need to go eat with your wife, and spend time together. It makes for a long night.

Michael

 

[bill larson]

My scale is also a Sartorius. It also has the glass wind shields. The resolution is .002 grains, or .0001 grams. We do not weigh our powder charges to .002 grains. We can get down to one kernel, which is plus or minus about .006 grains with small grain powders. You cannot weigh down to the resolution of the scale. Temperature and humidity will change the weight of a thrown charge by a fair amount. I throw light, and trickle up to weight. For those last few kernels, I put a small amount of powder on the work surface and push the tip of my finger against it to pick up anywhere from 1 to 3 kernels so I can finish off the charge. I weigh about 10 charges, dumping each charge into the case and seating the bullets in one loading session, and shoot the match. It's not about weighing the exact amount of powder over different time periods, but making that batch of 10 or so charges as close to the same as possible. You never weigh charges over a long period of time with humidity changes and expect to actually have the same amount of powder. When throwing charges, a temperature increase will cause the powder to expand, and you will throw lighter charges. Humidity will also change the weight and burn rate of the powder. Drier powder will produce higher velocities. At Raton, I have to deal with wind currents in the building when it is windy outdoors, but choosing the right loading bench goes a long way toward solving this issue. I do not weigh charges outdoors because the scale becomes to unstable. For those situations where it is impossible to weigh at the range, I weigh back at the motel room, and put the powder in test tubes. I have 400 test tubes in ammo MTM ammo boxes that are 10mm diameter by 3 inches long. The only problem with weighing at the room, is I have to weigh batches of different weights so I can change the load if necessary. How do I know that I'm really getting better powder charges? Because the chronograph velocities have incredibly low ES. Look back further in this post for an example of Labradar velocities produced from my 30-30 with range weighed charges. I typically get about 5 fps ES. The only other problems with weighing at the room is how time consuming it is to weigh 100 or more charges. You get back to the room, you are tired, you need to go eat with your wife, and spend time together. It makes for a long night.

Michael

SO...... most of us are weighing to the kernel....... I use an A&D FX-120 scale. It weighs grains to .02/gr....... doesn't the grain length,...come into play.......I do not believe the grains are the same length....
i.e.... how do these fellas claim to chart grain values with respect to velocity... when 1 grain can be much longer than another...... ????
bill

 

[mturner]

Bill,

That is where variation does come in. LT30 is close to .01gr per kernel, while some kernels of powder could be .04gr. per kernel. The heavier kernel would make it impossible to weigh charges as close as you can with the lighter kernel. Also one kernel of H4198 will make more difference in velocity than one kernel of H4831. for two reasons, one the H4831 burns slower, and the other reason is because it is used in cases that typically have twice the capacity. For this reason, one kernel of H4831 will not change the velocity a great deal, even though the kernels are way larger. Your scales are good enough to get you close enough. My scales are somewhat overkill with a resolution that equals a 200 mg. ibuprofen tablet divided into 2000 equal parts. That would be one ten thousandth of a gram, or .0001 grams.

Michael

 

[alinwa]

SO...... most of us are weighing to the kernel....... I use an A&D FX-120 scale. It weighs grains to .02/gr....... doesn't the grain length,...come into play.......I do not believe the grains are the same length....
i.e.... how do these fellas claim to chart grain values with respect to velocity... when 1 grain can be much longer than another...... ????
bill

I certainly can't answer this........ Bill, I see your lips moving and hear the sound but I have absolutely no idea what "chart grain values with respect to velocity" could possibly mean. I can't answer in your terms.

You statistics and data guys just baffle me, I mean if I were to take an aggregate, mean average of all the charts-and-numbers guys I know, a statistically meaningful percentage of them would give SD a higher weight preference than ES. Some a' these guys can convince themselves that if they bracket the target well, such that the mean center is where they want it, they're shooting zero's. That as long as they can "keep their SD within meaningful, pre-assigned parameters" they're golden........"just make sure you get enough of them close to the mean so they offset the outliers, then we'll throw out a percentage of the highs and lows.....

In my world, you don't analyze it. Ya just MEASURE IT. If it measures .100 and it's a round hole, IT'S GOOD! If the chrono tape says 3465-3468-3464-3464-3462, IT'S GOOD!!

Contrarywise, when the chronotape sez 3465-3466-3500-3465-3466 no amount of value jugglement can fix that "outlier."

ES

ES..

ES...

It just aint about "charting with respect to"...... it's about EVERY SHOT be it velocity, group or hitting X's. If ONE "outlier" buggers it up then so be it, THAT is the size or spread.





Here's the deal.......if I'm selling pickuploads of squirrels for 65.00/ton and the last few squirrels are too big, I take 'em out and chuck in a couple smaller squirrels so the scale settles on a ton.

Might even have to do that twice't.

Depends on the breed of squirrel.

 

[alinwa]

BTW Michael........I'ma' pull out of this thread now unless asked a direct question. I can feel the ground beginning to rumble and before the volcano erupts I'll just ease back but not before saying THANK YOU for publishing your ES figures.

You are legit.

You are known.

Unlike myself, you have earned credibility out in the score matches for real.



On a side note.

I hared off down the air rifle path a couple times, before I found out how to get low Extreme Spreads consistently.......only because I thought maybe with metered pressure I could get consistent velocities. I'm now convinced that there is nothing on the planet that compares to a good centerfire. On ANY front, definitely including consistent velocity. It still just blows my mind that I can light a fire with a hammer, burn a pile of cellulose rapidly and control the deflagration so consistently as to repeatably get shots within just a few fps of each other. Down to within the resolution range of the measuring equipment.

fantastic

 

[bill larson]

Single Kernal Velocity Data

"alinwa said..
."As one who's measured velocities from a home range setting for many years (I currently own 4 Chrony's, an Oehler 43 and the Labradar) I will state as repeatable provable fact that the only way you'll ever get truly low ES numbers is with weighed charges. Weighed on a scale capable of resolving single kernels of powder."
"I can actually show you in real time how much velocity a SINGLE KERNEL of various powders is worth"

The above statement, is the reason I asked for single kernel data with respect to velocity.....with the variance in kernel lengths..... how is this possible..............???
bill larson

 

[mturner]

Bill

"alinwa said..
."As one who's measured velocities from a home range setting for many years (I currently own 4 Chrony's, an Oehler 43 and the Labradar) I will state as repeatable provable fact that the only way you'll ever get truly low ES numbers is with weighed charges. Weighed on a scale capable of resolving single kernels of powder."
"I can actually show you in real time how much velocity a SINGLE KERNEL of various powders is worth"

The above statement, is the reason I asked for single kernel data with respect to velocity.....with the variance in kernel lengths..... how is this possible..............???
bill larson

The reason Al doesn't want to supply the data is because it isn't just a simple number, like 4 fps per kernel. It is not possible to give one number that holds true for all cartridges, all bullet weights, and all powders, and all barrel lengths. All of these factors will cause variations, and I didn't even cover all variables like bore and groove dimensions. To get a real number, for a given cartridge, with a given bullet, and a given powder, do this. Load five identical rounds, and then load another five with .5gr more powder. Weigh all powder charges as close as you can. Shoot all ten rounds over the chronograh at the same time, and get the average velocity for the first five, and then for the second five that have .5gr more powder. Determine the velocity increase for .5gr. Let's just say for arguments sake that we gained 80 fps, and you were shooting N133 in a 6PPC. Now weigh out .5gr of N133 on a precision scale. Then count the kernels. Let's just say there were 33 kernels of N133. Now divide 80 fps by 33 kernels, and you'll get 2.4 fps per kernel. Now this is proof that you can chart velocity per kernel, but remember that any change, including atmospheric conditions will have an effect of this data. Making major changes like kernel size, burn rate, case capacity, and capacity to bore ratio will change the velocity per kernel numbers in a huge way. Just because Al could show you some examples, doesn't mean he wants to go to the trouble. A guy sent me a private message wanting me to teach him how to build rifle actions. I asked him where he lived, and he said "Italy". I asked him to give me a call, and I would try to explain it. He then asked me to just teach him with an email. Even my thread about "Why I shoot the 30-30 in benchrest" was a very time consuming post. I think I could spend a week trying to teach someone how to build an action by email, and they still wouldn't understand.

If you follow the simple instructions, you can come up with accurate data for velocity per kernel for one cartridge, bullet, powder, rifle, condition, combination. Now if you are talking about the variation in kernel size in the same can of powder, this formula will still give you the average, because you are weighing a .5gr sample of various kernels from the same can. It all about the average, not knowing how much the larger kernels contributed to the velocity versus the smaller kernels.

Michael

 

[alinwa]

The reason Al doesn't want to supply the data is because it isn't just a simple number, like 4 fps per kernel. It is not possible to give one number that holds true for all cartridges, all bullet weights, and all powders, and all barrel lengths. All of these factors will cause variations, and I didn't even cover all variables like bore and groove dimensions. To get a real number, for a given cartridge, with a given bullet, and a given powder, do this. Load five identical rounds, and then load another five with .5gr more powder. Weigh all powder charges as close as you can. Shoot all ten rounds over the chronograh at the same time, and get the average velocity for the first five, and then for the second five that have .5gr more powder. Determine the velocity increase for .5gr. Let's just say for arguments sake that we gained 80 fps, and you were shooting N133 in a 6PPC. Now weigh out .5gr of N133 on a precision scale. Then count the kernels. Let's just say there were 33 kernels of N133. Now divide 80 fps by 33 kernels, and you'll get 2.4 fps per kernel. Now this is proof that you can chart velocity per kernel, but remember that any change, including atmospheric conditions will have an effect of this data. Making major changes like kernel size, burn rate, case capacity, and capacity to bore ratio will change the velocity per kernel numbers in a huge way. Just because Al could show you some examples, doesn't mean he wants to go to the trouble. A guy sent me a private message wanting me to teach him how to build rifle actions. I asked him where he lived, and he said "Italy". I asked him to give me a call, and I would try to explain it. He then asked me to just teach him with an email. Even my thread about "Why I shoot the 30-30 in benchrest" was a very time consuming post. I think I could spend a week trying to teach someone how to build an action by email, and they still wouldn't understand.

If you follow the simple instructions, you can come up with accurate data for velocity per kernel for one cartridge, bullet, powder, rifle, condition, combination. Now if you are talking about the variation in kernel size in the same can of powder, this formula will still give you the average, because you are weighing a .5gr sample of various kernels from the same can. It all about the average, not knowing how much the larger kernels contributed to the velocity versus the smaller kernels.

Michael

well.....

Or maybe the reason Al doesn't want to supply the data or explain hisself is BECAUSE HE COULDNA' DONE IT THAT WELL!!!

"What Michael said"

Thanks Michael

al

 

[adamsgt]

Well, I got back yesterday from a 7 day Alaskan cruise and see that this thread is still alive. While on the cruise, however, my mind would not let this thread alone. One time when I was sitting on the balcony of our room watching the waves go by, my wife asked me what I was thinking about. I replied that I was trying to figure out a way to capture kernels of gun powder on a metal plate engraved with lines the diameter of the kernel. She just stared at me for a few moments, shook her head and went back into the room.

 

[mturner]

More Help

Well, I got back yesterday from a 7 day Alaskan cruise and see that this thread is still alive. While on the cruise, however, my mind would not let this thread alone. One time when I was sitting on the balcony of our room watching the waves go by, my wife asked me what I was thinking about. I replied that I was trying to figure out a way to capture kernels of gun powder on a metal plate engraved with lines the diameter of the kernel. She just stared at me for a few moments, shook her head and went back into the room.

Jerry,

Now I will try to help you. When you are on a cruise with your wife, and she ask you what you are thinking about, always give the same answer, "YOU". When she goes back to the room, always do the same thing, "FOLLOW". Hope this helps.

Michael