Is benchrest dying?

First you would need to find a range that could hold the match (large) and then you would need to find a range that would hold the match (a lot of work).
john
Mims, Fl.

Both St Louis and Kelblys would be large enough and have incidentals like camper hookups, as well as staff to run such a match. I'm not pushing for nor expecting the IBS and NBRSA to hae a combined match...anyhoo probably 90% belong to both sanctions and attend both Nationals. Combining the IBS and NBRSA nationals still does not get you to the total number of shooters that the Super Shoot has in a bad year.
 
I haven't been around much lately but was interested in reading this thread when I saw it. Simply because I was thinking the same thing and have been for several months. Is benchrest dying? Perhaps a better question would be is benchrest doomed? To that, I would say yes. Anyone who actually attends matches and does so with their eyes open has seen a decline in participants lately. They have also seen matches all out cancelled or closed down. There is no denying this fact. We lost 2 matches this year in my home state and the remaining 2 are down 10 people or more. Looking at the near future, Deckert's will be gone in less than 5 years, Albuquerque is down to one match a year, and Nevada is already gone. Phoenix will shoot for years to come but has already seen declines in shooters. Just look at the Cactus registration numbers over the last 10 years.....they are way down. Used to be you had to pre-register or you wouldn't get a spot. Now, that is not a problem at all.
So, any idiot can see that we are down in number, and that's starting with a number that wasn't really big to begin with. Let's face it, there are probably more registered underwater basket weavers in this country than registered benchrest shooters! Why? You can make the guesses. I think MarkR gave a good standard list of the more obvious reasons. But there are deeper reasons why I feel benchrest is doomed that maybe only "recovering addicts" can see. Since I now consider myself in that category, I will try to explain what those deeper reasons are.
First, let me say that I still love benchrest. Love it dearly. But after attending the Nationals last year, I had a very bitter taste put in my mouth about it. Basically, it became very apparent at that match that with the current status of things, benchrest is not a fair competition. Maybe a truly fair competition does not exist? Especially when it involves equipment that competitors have to pay for themselves. But it became very obvious to me that the best shooter does not always walk away with the top spot trophy. The top spot trophy goes to the guy who has the best barrel, keeps it in tune the longest, and keeps his head in the game with the fewest mistakes. Now, two of those things can be practiced and honed, and they should not be discounted from that shooter. He has worked hard to get those two things going right for him. But the other one of those three things, he did nothing for. He had absolutely no control over it whatsoever. Either it was blind luck, or he insured he had a good barrel before he came to the match. How does one do that? Simple. By buying barrels in bulk and cherry picking the best one to bring to the match. Yep, that's how it's done folks.
Since no one can determine if a barrel is worth what you paid for it without shooting it, the only way you can increase your odds that you are getting a good barrel is by buying tons of them. That pretty much puts the majority of current shooters at a disadvantage, and will forever be a hurdle for new shooters to overcome as well. At least, new shooters who want to win.
To make matters worse, many of the top shooters get multiple barrels given to them. They don't have to pay. How is the average guy to compete against that?

I used to be proud of the fact that Benchrest is one of the few sports in the world where a new shooter can draw a bench and shoot right next to the professionals that have been playing the game for decades. Now, I am very much opposed to that idea. Competition is only a competition if the playing field is fair for all competitors. It is very hard to sell the idea that BR is fair to the new shooter when these unbalances exist. It is already overwhelming to most prospective shooters at the amount they must purchase up front to play this game. Then they discover that no matter how much money they dump into the sport they love, there are always others who have the ability to spend ten times that amount on the game, and that they will compete head to head with those folks. Why would anyone willingly jump into that? Now if there were different classes to shoot in...............boy would that change things. I could compete with other guys who can only afford two or three barrels per year, only have time to shoot once a week, and don't own their own backyard ranges!??! WOW, now we're talking!

Sad thing is, it's not just barrels. Anything made by man can be a lemon. In a game that is chuck full with gadgets and gizmos, you're bound to get a weak link somewhere in your armor. Chances are, you're gonna get more than one too. I spent my first 7 years in this game chasing down one equipment failure after another. Finally, I ended up getting rid of everything I owned and starting over with a new rifle. Well, it was a lemon too! Spent $1500 on an action that was flawed almost every which way it could have been. I would have been light years ahead if I'd just used one of my blueprinted Remmy's in my safe!

I've heard some folks here say you can get into this game for less than $4,000. Well, that may be true if you have better luck than me! I've had to spend five times that and I still have to spend more just to be competitive! And who knows if the next rifle I build will be any better!? Guess this is why Lowell Frei (among many others) builds between 5 and 10 complete rifles every year. They know that there are some guns created which have accuracy greater than the sum of their parts. Well, that's true I believe, and also WAY out of my financial feasibility! I was doing well just to have two guns made. Now I've gotta compete with somebody who can afford to build 10?!?!

Then there's scopes..............(which you can only control by modification or spending more $$ for another one)
Then there's good batches of powder, bad batches of powder..........(which you can't control)
Then there's good bullets, bad bullets.......(which you can only control if you make your own)
Then there's good jackets and bad jackets.........(which you can't control).

Then there's the anti-climatic aspect of the game; even when you do well and are getting excited, YOU CAN'T ENJOY THAT FEELING because you'll get too excited and put your fifth shot way out of your bughole!

Yeah, folks looking to have fun with their spare time should definitely get into BR! It boggles the mind why there aren't more people beating down the door to play this game?! It's more fun than you can shake a stick at........well, only if you make a six figure income, have the patience of God, have the luck of Hefner, the time of Rip Van Winkle, thrive on misery and disappointment, and love to travel 10 hours on Red Bull and Wrigleys so you can make it to work on Monday morning........it's an absolute blast!

We have a local match this weekend that I still haven't decided if I'm going to attend or not. Let see, spend $100 on match fee, $50 on gas, $100 on components (of which I don't know if I can replace anytime soon), work my arse off to get things set up and taken down, take a day off work, be dead tired for the next work week, and probably have no chance of shooting even decent................or, spend $20 to put gas in my ATV, strap on a varmint gun, and go for a two day hunting ride that might actually be fun (and no work)........hmmm, that's a tough choice! Being a recovering Benchrestaholic, I could relapse and make the dumb choice very easily! Starting to get wagon wheel tread patterns on my forehead....
 
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[W]ith the current status of things, benchrest is not a fair competition. Maybe a truly fair competition does not exist? Especially when it involves equipment that competitors have to pay for themselves. But it became very obvious to me that the best shooter does not always walk away with the top spot trophy. The top spot trophy goes to the guy who has the best barrel....He had absolutely no control over it whatsoever. Either it was blind luck, or he insured he had a good barrel before he came to the match. How does one do that? Simple. By buying barrels in bulk and cherry picking the best one to bring to the match. Yep, that's how it's done folks.
Since no one can determine if a barrel is worth what you paid for it without shooting it, the only way you can increase your odds that you are getting a good barrel is by buying tons of them. That pretty much puts the majority of current shooters at a disadvantage, and will forever be a hurdle for new oters to overcome as well. At least, new shooters who want to win.
To make matters worse, many of the top shooters get multiple barrels given to them. They don't have to pay. How is the average guy to compete against that?

...[The new shooters] discover that no matter how much money they dump into the sport they love, there are always others who have the ability to spend ten times that amount on the game, and that they will compete head to head with those folks....Now if there were different classes to shoot in...............boy would that change things. I could compete with other guys who can only afford two or three barrels per year, only have time to shoot once a week, and don't own their own backyard ranges!??!


An interesting read; thanks for sharing. I'd like to share some very quick thoughts. :)

I agree that a disparity in resources causes a disparity in likely results; however, it's probably unrealistic to expect a "truly fair competition" (in the sense that all competitors have access to, or are willing to spend, equal resources) in most things that involve multiple participants. It's probably unrealistic for the average guy to expect to compete with the top-tier guys (or even think he's competing with them). You talk about how nice it would be to "compete with other guys who can only afford two or three barrels per year, only have time to shoot once a week, and don't own their own backyard ranges." What about guys who can't afford two or three barrels per year, or don't have time to shoot once a week? Create another class for them? Et cetera, et cetera.

BTW, why is it important to win? (That's a rhetorical question.) I suspect a good argument can be made that folks would be better off if they did not "compete" with other folks (for doing so can result in an unhealthy sense of self-worth), rather they should just enjoy having a good time at what they're doing -- with no thought of who wins. Realizing the need to be "better" than someone else is a strong motivator, we're stuck with this need to win. Thus, back to your comments.

I don't think benchrest is doomed because there will always be folks who want to prove they're as good a shooter (or better) than someone else. The venues may change and the number of participants at those venues may change; however, the sport will not go away as long as we have access to guns and ammo.
 
What about guys who can't afford two or three barrels per year, or don't have time to shoot once a week? Create another class for them? Et cetera, et cetera.

Yes, have multiple classes. Give a guy a chance to win against his real peers, he has a better time, he's more likely to come back. Doesn't mean we have to alter the intent and purpose of BR, or dumb down the game, we just give each guy a choice of which trophy he wants to compete for and puts all the guys with free barrels, backyard ranges, and unlimited time and resources in a seperate bracket.

I don't think benchrest is doomed because there will always be folks who want to prove they're as good a shooter (or better) than someone else. The venues may change and the number of participants at those venues may change; however, the sport will not go away as long as we have access to guns and ammo.

I have to respectfully disagree. No one is going to run a match if they go in the hole every time they put one on. Of that, I am absolutely certain! Most matches require at least 20 shooters to break even. Dip below that number and you will see exactly what has already happened in numerous places across the country. They shut down, and the people who are left must now drive to neighboring states if they want to play. Of course, there will always be the guys who can trapse across the nation in their motorhomes and spend $4.50 a gallon for diesel. But there ain't enough of those guys to keep the game going. Not by a long shot. So without new blood and incentives for new shooters to join, and multiple venues to choose from, BR as we know it will end up being played by a bunch of rich guys in their backyards, alone.

I ain't being cynical, just being realistic. As a wise man once said, "we can hope for better, but we'd better prepare for the worst".
 
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No one is going to run a match if they go in the hole every time they put one on....Most matches require at least 20 shooters to break even. So without new blood and incentives for new shooters to join, and multiple venues to choose from, BR as we know it will end up being played by a bunch of rich guys in their backyards, alone.

Does someone have to "run a match" for folks to get together and shoot against one another? I suspect folks were competing, informally, long before any formal matches were created, are still doing so outside the realm of formal matches, and will continue doing so. Regardless of whether formal BR matches change, I suspect benchrest shooting, even among the not-so-rich, will endure. :)
 
Does someone have to "run a match" for folks to get together and shoot against one another? I suspect folks were competing, informally, long before any formal matches were created, are still doing so outside the realm of formal matches, and will continue doing so. Regardless of whether formal BR matches change, I suspect benchrest shooting, even among the not-so-rich, will endure. :)

Well then you're not talking about Benchrest anymore. You're talking about fun shoots with four or five guys who are pulling triggers on rifles that are in a "benchrest" configuration. Yes, that type of shooting will exist as long as there is powder to burn. The Benchrest I'm talking about will not last nearly as long without more shooters getting involved and more match directors willing to go through the hell to put these tournaments together.

And it won't help the situation for shooter attendance if we can't get better barrels soon either. I cancelled an order with one barrel company this year already because I just don't trust what we're getting anymore. That put me out of competing in earnest this year because my other barrels are on their last legs. Well, that and I was waiting for a fix to my hunk of *%@^ action. And since we love to send all of our steel plants to China, I don't see us getting good quality steel for barrel making anytime soon. The only barrels I've had shoot worth a tinkers damn in the last two years were barrels made pre '09. It all goes back to what I said earlier...........if a guy can't show up to a match without the least possible chance of shooting well, how long is he going to keep beating his head against the wall?:confused:
 
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Well then you're not talking about Benchrest anymore. You're talking about fun shoots with four or five guys who are pulling triggers on rifles that are in a "benchrest" configuration. Yes, that type of shooting will exist as long as there is powder to burn. The Benchrest I'm talking about will not last nearly as long without more shooters getting involved and more match directors willing to go through the hell to put these tournaments together.

If the Benchrest you're talking about creates enough classes so there will be "fair competition" amongst each shooter's "real peers," would that change the essence of Benchrest as you know it? With enough classes to "level the playing field," there may not be more than about four or five guys (if that many) competing in several of the classes. If that happens, would that be much different than "fun shoots"?

BTW, I've enjoyed reading your posts. Do you mind sharing where you're located? Also, which shoot this weekend are you contemplating? I assume it's a registered match?
 
Hunter,I am not so sure about that.
At Tomball, we have a club match program that runs the same as a Registered Match. We have a Factory Class, a modified Class, and a Benchrest Class. If you have a Rifle, you can shoot.

We have been having 35 to 40 shooters each match, but the vast majority are in the Benchrest Class, where you can shoot any legal firearm.

I have made it as simple as possible to shoot, and still have the feeling that you are shooting Benchrest. Houston is the 3d largest city in the Country, so you would think we would have multitudes willing to come out.

As for finding people to run matches, I do it as a service to my gun club. I keep it simple so it is the least amount of hassle to me and the shooters.

Our next match is this Sunday. I would love to see 30 shooters in the Factory and Modified class........jackie
 
Hunter,I am not so sure about that.
At Tomball, we have a club match program that runs the same as a Registered Match. We have a Factory Class, a modified Class, and a Benchrest Class. If you have a Rifle, you can shoot.

We have been having 35 to 40 shooters each match, but the vast majority are in the Benchrest Class, where you can shoot any legal firearm.

Jackie, I was playing devil's adocate a bit and furthering GG's suggestion toward its logical end. For example, I suspect someone could legitimately argue "unfair" about an out-of-the-box, entry-level Remchestby competing against a high-end Savage shooting handloads, or, as GG suggested, someone who can only buy one barrel every three or four years having to compete against someone who can buy three a year.

As for the participation at your club shoots, I'm amazed that y'all have such a good crowd. Congratulations for the effort you invest, and I wish the distance between me and your club were a lot less. :)
 
If the Benchrest you're talking about creates enough classes so there will be "fair competition" amongst each shooter's "real peers," would that change the essence of Benchrest as you know it? With enough classes to "level the playing field," there may not be more than about four or five guys (if that many) competing in several of the classes. If that happens, would that be much different than "fun shoots"?

I don't think it would change a thing as far as the game is played. The gun classes would stay exactly the same, the goal of Benchrest (the definition is in the handbook) would stay the same, and the envelope would still be pushed. In a small match, yes, there might only be five guys in one class, but they would be ranked according to their class and maybe even have an overall ranking too. They do this in marathons all the time. They have age classes of about 5 to 7 years so a 65 year old guy (or gal) can be ranked among other guys 60 to 65 years old (of which there might only be five in a smaller non-qualifying marathon) and then they will give the overall times, and overall placements. That way, the good old guy can feel pretty good about himself if he beats his buddies and he doesn't even really need to look at how bad the 25 year old Kenyan just smoked him. Keeps him coming back and also makes his peers want to even the score in the next race!
Even though there are classes, everyone still ran 26.2 miles, everyone tried to run as fast as they could, and everyone will know where they can improve and where they are strong. Or maybe we could come up with some sort of handicap system like in golf?
Maybe it's all a pipe dream, but good lord we've gotta do something. Right now, as someone else mentioned to me in a PM, BR is on a suicide path. There aren't even half as many people joining to play as there are BR guys dying or quitting. How can it sustain itself into the future with stats like that?


BTW, I've enjoyed reading your posts. Do you mind sharing where you're located? Also, which shoot this weekend are you contemplating? I assume it's a registered match?

Thanks. I hope I don't come off as too opinionated in my posts. I'm really a pretty optimistic and cheerful person, and don't purposely set out to ruffle folk's feathers, though that seems to happen more than I'd like.:(


I am located in the beautiful state of Utah. About 60 miles south of the big salty lake. I am the youngest, self-promoted shooter in the Southwest Region. There is one shooter in the mid-continent region who is two years younger than me. Other than that, most folks in this game are my senior by 30 plus years. My friends my age think I have mental issues because I like to play this game! They like to go shoot long range gongs with me until I run out of ammo, but punching holes in paper with a $3500 rifle and $4000 worth of miscellaneous gear just makes them wonder WHY!

I used to shoot long range shoots and club shoots, but got sick of the constant rule changing and scheduled event "alterations" which also conveniently and suspiciously seemed to always benefit the match director or his buddies. Found registered NBRSA matches exactly what I was looking for. Permanent, printed, rules and procedures that are the same in Maine as they are in Oregon regardless of who is running the match or who is shooting. Haven't shot a "fun shoot" now in almost a decade.

The match I was contemplating this weekend is the Springville Utah shoot put on by Dave Tunbridge and crew. I went and spit some lead down range today there and found a couple of combinations that showed promise. If I can get some of those to repeat tomorrow, I might just hang around for the weekend.........
 
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I don't think it would change a thing as far as the game is played. The gun classes would stay exactly the same....In a small match, yes, there might only be five guys in one class, but they would be ranked according to their class....They do this in marathons all the time. They have age classes of about 5 to 7 years so a 65 year old guy (or gal) can be ranked among other guys 60 to 65 years old....That way, the good old guy can feel pretty good about himself if he beats his buddies and he doesn't even really need to look at how bad the 25 year old Kenyan just smoked him. Keeps him coming back and also makes his peers want to even the score in the next race!...Right now, as someone else mentioned to me in a PM, BR is on a suicide path. There aren't even half as many people joining to play as there are BR guys dying or quitting.

...

I used to shoot long range shoots and club shoots, but got sick of the constant rule changing and scheduled event "alterations" which also conveniently and suspiciously seemed to always benefit the match director or his buddies. Found registered NBRSA matches exactly what I was looking for. Permanent, printed, rules and procedures that are the same in Maine as they are in Oregon regardless of who is running the match or who is shooting.

Referencing the bolded portion of your post, I assume you mean there would be sub-classes within, e.g., the LV class, with those sub-classes consisting of, e.g., folks who get a dozen barrels a year (some for free), folks who can afford only three barrels a year, folks who can afford only one barrel every three years, folks who can afford Farley rests, folks who don't have 20/20 vision, entry-level factory guns, high-end factory guns, etc., or, alternatively, sub-classes based on a golf-type handicap system. Assuming that's what your talking about, would I be motivated to drive long distances and pay $50 or more per day just to see if I could beat one of my "peers," and maybe get my name in a record book for being the best of my "peer" group? Probably no more motivated than I currently am to drive long distances and pay $50 or more per day to see how far from the bottom I rank on a listing of shooters shooting rigs costing over $5K. If there were more close-by registered matches (structured as you would like to see), would I be motivated to attend those? Maybe a few, but lower-cost club shoots have some strong advantages, even if the procedures differ from place to place.

I hope you enjoy the shoot this weekend; I'll look forward to seeing your name near the top of the results list. :)
 
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Seems that classes are the way to go, the NRA uses classes and they say that this year they have over 9000 registered Rifle are Pistol match's. It's hard to argue with success.

They have different categories for the guns, Rim Fire, Center Fire, etc. and for each category they have classes, such as Marksman, Sharpshooter, Expert, and Master.

The classification system NRA uses is very simple and would be very easy for BR shooters to copy. Marksman shoot with other Marksman and Experts shoot with other Experts. When a Marksman or Experts scores warrants it they get moved up to the next class. It's a very level playing field for all the shooters and everyone seems to be happy with the way it works. Guess that may be why it's so successful, the shooters are happy and having fun.

Classes seemed to have worked for them for the past 50 + years. It would be interesting to see if BR would grow using a system like the NRA uses.

As it is now I don't think BR shooting has even 5 % of the Rifle shooters that the NRA has. And I don't think it's because the equipment is less costly or the course of fire is easer, in fact the equipment is just as costly and it's probably a much harder course of fire as a lot of the shooting is off hand and under the same conditions that BR shooters shoot in, off hand or bench it's the same wind etc.

Does anyone have an idea how many BR shooters are actually shooting in BR matches ?.
52-Shooter
 
52

FWIW...people have been known to sandbag on the classifier targets. Just sayin', the system isn't perfect. Can't argue with their success, though. UBR has been using different classes, by rifle, and caliber neutral score targets. It certainly has worked well at Gallatin. Factory class may well have as many competitors as custom at any given match, many who do move up.
Other ranges haven't seen the same level of success, but Gallatin is a template to at least try. It went from dying out, with 5-8 competitors, to upwards of around 30 monthly, since going to the UBR santioning and classes.
I'm not saying that the game is better or worse than another, just that it certainly has changed the viability of holding matches there.
We'll be having a good time shooting, hopefully for a long time because of it.
 
Actually, in the early days, up until the mid-80's, IBS Hunter Score competition had classes........and they eventually got away from that format. You may want to review the history so as not to repeat mistakes.
IMHO, the UBR style format will draw the most participants and keep BR alive.
 
Glad to hear that some are trying different ideas. And from what you say it's working. I realize that no system is perfect and that some shooters will sandbag but it's only a matter of time before it catches up with them. I agree that with only 5 to 8 shooters it was about to die, just goes to show that trying a little different system like classes it can come back, that's a very BIG increase in shooters and it's possible that the more you have the more you will get.

I think the big problem would be getting the big guys like NBRSA and the IBS to go along and try something like classified shooter events, seems that a lot of the old timers just don't want change.

I was wrong on the number of registered shooting events that NRA has, I've been informed that it's just over 11,000, not 9,000, I think I got the 9,000 number back in January, guess it went up 2000 since then. I don't know what the number is for each discipline of shooting such as Rimfire Rifle, Center Fire Rifle, or Handgun but I'm sure NRA has the numbers on each.
52-Shooter
 
Referencing the bolded portion of your post, I assume you mean there would be sub-classes within, e.g., the LV class, with those sub-classes consisting of, e.g., folks who get a dozen barrels a year (some for free), folks who can afford only three barrels a year, folks who can afford only one barrel every three years, folks who can afford Farley rests, folks who don't have 20/20 vision, entry-level factory guns, high-end factory guns, etc., or, alternatively, sub-classes based on a golf-type handicap system.


I don't know Hunter. Like I said earlier, there probably isn't a perfect competition among equipment oriented games. All I know is that a new shooter might be more inclined to stick with BR if he can win a little wood once in awhile. Since that greatly depends upon what barrel you've got attached to your action at the time of the match, maybe we should look at ways to level the playing field so a new shooter doesn't have to buy a dozen barrels to have a chance against guys who routinely order that many. Maybe a WBC type format would help. Everyone shows up, gets handed brand x components, and they have to do with it what they can. Or maybe a handicap system based on how many shoots you attended the previous year. Since most of the guys dumping tens of thousands of dollars per year on BR are also the same guys shooting 10 or more matches, give them a .030" handicap on the grand aggs or two guns. A guy who only shoots one or two matches a year is probably making due with one or two barrels, and would get scored exactly as he shot. Again, just spitballing here............I am not bright enough to solve this problem. Wish I was.


I hope you enjoy the shoot this weekend; I'll look forward to seeing your name near the top of the results list. :)

That ain't gonna happen! My only barrel I brought is just a so-so barrel at best. Everyone but me would have to crossfire for me to even have a chance!
 
Just curious......
Nascar is an equipment oriented game. I suppose they have some way to level the playing field for the teams who don't have huge sponsors? Or is it like baseball and the Yankees?
 
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