Ignition failures

adamsgt

adamsgt

Jerry Adams
I bought a Harrells custom sizing die for my HV gun which is a Bat action. So I decided to make up some new brass. The first time through I used the bullseye capped with wax method for fire forming. For the second forming I used bullets and VV133 ~29 grn. I had removed the firing pin from the bolt to check the "feel" of the brass and everything seemed fine. I had 64 rounds loaded and went to the range to fire form. The first round was a "click". The primer showed what appeared to be an acceptable dimple. The second round fired normally. I continued through all 64 rounds and had 27 ignition failures. I ran the 27 through again and had 3 that fired. Immediately suspected problems with the bolt and firing pin. As I had left the bolt disassembly tool at home I was done for the day. When I got home I took the firing pin out of the bolt and sprayed action cleaner through the bolt and cleaned some residue from the tip of the firing pin. I took one of the failed rounds and pulled the bullet, dumped the powder de-primed and seated a new primer. Re-assembled the bolt put it in the gun chambered the round and pulled the trigger and got a pop from the primer. So, I repeated the process for another round and got a satisfactory "pop".

At this point I figured the problem had been a dirty firing pin so I reloaded the two rounds and with the other 22 rounds that had been attempted twice I went to the range the next morning. This time 13 rounds fired and 11 failed. Returned to the house and pulled the bullets from all 11 rounds dumped the powder de-primed and seated new primers. Put the first one in the gun and got a "click". The next 10 popped normally. So I took the last straggler and seated a new primer and it popped.

So, that's the sequence of events the best that I can describe it. Up to this point I've not had one ignition failure on this gun. Some possibilities come to mind. In removing the firing pin to check the brass I could have dislodged something in the bolt that interfered with the firing pin. Now this is the first time I've removed the firing pin to check case fit..

The continued failures after cleaning the bolt could have occurred because the primers were affected in some manner by the first and second strikes.

Discussed this with my Friday lunch posse and one suggestion was to run my bolt in my ultrasonic cleaner. Another suggestion was to replace the firing pin spring. I had bought the gun used and had never disassembled the bolt until now. There is a fair amount of grease covering the spring and the threads at the back. Is that normal?
Are there any particular tricks to removing the spring from the firing pin? I'd hate to have something zapping through an eye.
 
Well, if all else fails, calling BAT might be a good notion...

Probably won't help, but I have a BAT Model S -- serial number in the low 80s, 6-1/2 inch action made before they got into all the various model numbers, set up for a .30BR. It never had a FTF until I tried Wolf primers. I then had 13 out of 35 FTFs. Since going back to Federal 205s, I've had one more.

Sooo, I don't suppose you were taking advantage of fireforming to use up some questionable primers, were you? Point 2 would be that with all the ignition problems I've heard about with the shorter BATs, most involved accuracy, not FTF. That's why a call to BAT might be a good idea.

When you do get it figured out, let us know, please.
 
No Wolf, I'm using Federal 205. This is an 8 1/2 inch action, so I guess it's an M. I plan on calling Bat on Monday. They only answer the phone for 2 hours on Mon thru Thurs. If I buy another spring I'd better buy something else because the spring is $15 and the shipping is $9. It's getting rather ugly buying things these days where you have to juggle the items you buy in order to amortize the shipping charges over the purchase price. I had called Bat once before about this gun as the serial number is two initials and a single number. The guy I talked to said it sounded like it was made by a Bat employee for himself. That's all I need, a mysterious action. :confused:
 
My guess is that when you fire formed the first time with the wax plug that your cases were driven forward creating a case that's too short in the body for your chamber. If you look at the primers after you fireformed with the wax plug, the primer may have backed out of the primer pocket slightly. I don't think you are getting enough pressure with the amount of powder that you are using with the wax plug for the first fire forming to keep the case head against the bolt face and blown out to the shoulder of the chamber.

To set up your Harrell die, back off your size die a little so that the shoulder isnt moved back and run a couple of the cases through the die that had been fireformed twice. Load them with a fairly stiff load of 133 and a bullet. Fire these couple of cases a third time. Then drop the brass bushing that Harrell sends out with their dies over your fired cases. Measure from the base of the case to the top of the gage. Record this measurement. Then set up your die to set the shoulder back .001" less than you measured with the fired cases.
 
Mike Bryant said:
My guess is that when you fire formed the first time with the wax plug that your cases were driven forward creating a case that's too short in the body for your chamber. If you look at the primers after you fireformed with the wax plug, the primer may have backed out of the primer pocket slightly. I don't think you are getting enough pressure with the amount of powder that you are using with the wax plug for the first fire forming to keep the case head against the bolt face and blown out to the shoulder of the chamber.

To set up your Harrell die, back off your size die a little so that the shoulder isnt moved back and run a couple of the cases through the die that had been fireformed twice. Load them with a fairly stiff load of 133 and a bullet. Fire these couple of cases a third time. Then drop the brass bushing that Harrell sends out with their dies over your fired cases. Measure from the base of the case to the top of the gage. Record this measurement. Then set up your die to set the shoulder back .001" less than you measured with the fired cases.
Click to expand...

this is gold
 
Mike, both times I sized the brass so that I had to "palm" the bolt handle in order to close the bolt. Could this occur if the case was too short?
 
Don't set your dies by the "feel" method on your brass. Use a "doo hickey" to measure the length of the fired brass...then set you dies to just touch the shoulder without shortening the case length. After you have fired it once as a PPC, I don't think you will have any problems. Good shooting... James
 
adamsgt said:
Mike, both times I sized the brass so that I had to "palm" the bolt handle in order to close the bolt. Could this occur if the case was too short?
Click to expand...

You just can't go by feel. I've seen the same thing happen with Ackley Improveds that were cut too long in the chamber resulting in too much headspace. The first initial firing causes the case to drive forward, the case expands sticking to the chamber walls and the primer backs out to fill the gap between the case head and the bolt face. If you size by feel, then it may not be the shoulder to case head that you are feeling. It may be tight somewhere else. You can't use the Harrell gage to set the die bump back until you have a good fired case that fits your chamber. Just about every time, I've seen where there is a primer ignition problem like you are describing, it's been caused by too much headspace from setting the shoulder back too much or the chamber was originally cut too deep. The cartridges like the 6 Dasher, BRX or BRDX are bad about this as the shoulder has to be moved forward to create the correct length cartridge.
 
OK, I beginning to feel like I did when I was trying to learn algebra in school. I could solve problems if they were exactly like examples in the text book. If they weren't I was lost. Then one day the light bulb clicked on and I had the "AHA" moment and everything was clear and simple. I haven't come close to that "AHA" moment as far as case forming is concerned.

Went back to Tony Boyer's book page 143. There is a paragraph titled Headspacing Before Neck Turning.​ The second sentence states: Follow the instructions in section "Die Setup" without using a neck sizing button. I have not been able to find a section with that title. Can anyone point me to that section?

What I have done, and perhaps this is where I've gone astray, is to neck turn after the first fireform. I expanded the neck and then sized to .001 clearance. Then I charged with bullseye sealed with wax and fired. I thought blowing the shoulder out first would allow me to get better neck turning results closer to the shoulder on one pass.

I'm thinking that I don't have a clear picture in my mind of how the .220 Russian case morphs into the 6PPC case. What moves where and when.

Well, I measured the headspace of some of the brass using the gizzie.

1.545 Old fired brass
1.544 New brass fired twice
1.544 New brass fired once w/bullseye & wax

So, I don't know what to think at this point.
 
Last edited:
Jerry, all your measurements sound good. It doesn't sound like what I thought it was with the bullseye not blowing the case out for a long enough chamber. That's the bad thing about the internet in that's it difficult to diagnose what the problem is without seeing it. If you are still having problems with the third firing of the primers not firing, then it could be a weak firing pin spring or bad primers. If you have ever blanked a primer, you could still have the piece of metal from the primer inside the bolt even though you've cleaned the inside of the bolt. It may not have come out when you cleaned it. I've seen that happen before as well. Let us know what cures the problem once you figure it out.
 
Mike, what do you think about putting the bolt and firing pin assembly in my ultrasonic cleaner for a while? Also does the spring need to be greased up?
 
Jerry, it is had to diagnose over the internet. Partly because the guy asking the question didn't provide some bits of information the responder thought necessary (the responder could be wrong, of course).

Let's start here:

You didn't say, but the first time you fireformed, with Bullseye & wax, I think you had expanded the necks up from .22 to 6mm, right? But nothing else. No reaming the flash hole, uniforming the primer pocket, no neck turning.

When you fireformed the cases with Bullseye and wax, you had no failure to fires, correct?

Next, you FL sized the cases, turned the necks, charged them with 29 grains of VV133, seated a bullet, and had a FTF rate of over 40% (Still no work on the primer pockets, right?)

I don't think cleaning the striker assembly is going to fix that.

First question I have is why did you FL size the cases? After fireforming with 9-grains of Bullseye (which I'd think a bit light), I'd guess your head clearance was a little bit greater than with the virgin .220 Russian with the only change being the neck's expanded up. Maybe not as measured by the gizzy, but a virgin Lapua .220 case, freshly expanded, doesn't headspace where a fireformed case does.

So if the die moved anything on the shoulder, I'd bet the case is moving too far into the chamber, regardless of the measurements you got.

The second question would be primer seating. However little you normally use, you need to be sure the primer was fully seated, esp. as you've not yet recut the primer pockets. To that end, I'd "overseat" them -- have them look nice and flat.

To go from zero failure to over 40 percent probably means something is wrong. If it is just little things, it's likely a bunch of them.
 
Charles, I thought that it would be best to get the neck OD close to .262 to get a good seal when fire forming with the bullseye/wax procedure. So I ran the new brass into the expander and then ran it through a bushing die with a .261 bushing installed. Maybe this is the point where the wheels started to come off.
 
Jerry, There are a lot of solid recommendations.....

Do you still have ANY virgin .220Russian brass....?.. If so then take say 5 cases, do the opposite and expand to 6mm / turn to neck diam. Then go fire. Don't run through the FL die, just go fire >>> With a "full power" load <<<... Now go measure the shoulder length... IF all fire, you simply may have a "longish" chamber... Then "play" with the die to control the amount of sizing for >>this<< chamber....

This may be all to THIS chamber / guns issue... Hopefully....?!

cale
 
Jerry, turning a parent case into something different -- fireforming, neck turning, etc., is sort of like chambering a barrel. There are all sorts of different techniques -- the equivalent of chambering through the headstock, or between centers, how to indicate the barrel in, etc. etc. And all sorts of different theories as to what's important & what's not, proper sequence, etc.

Just like barrels, what ultimately counts in making cases is how well they work. There are a lot of posts on BR Central about some particular aspect of making cases. Most of us -- me included -- give replies that address just the specific question, which often didn't make good sense, at least in a vacuum, and our replies may, or may not, be dependent of having done earlier steps another way.

Easiest thing to do is to follow a book's instructions. If that works for you, you're home free. If not, either because something was left out of the book/article, the particular technique didn't work for you, or you think something not done is terribly important, you're kinda on your own.

Most of us wound up just there, and have developed our own rituals, which each of us also mistakes for either "the best way" or "the only proper way." It does make problem-diagnosing difficult.

Sacrifice a few cases. For example, keep upping the charge of the pistol power until the primer pocket grows, or you see other obvious sighs of pressure. Then back off a little.

Try turning before fireforming to see if you can forever banish the donut. Or decide that the donut doesn't matter. And if the donut doesn't matter, find a way to keep it from influencing further work (if any), which might mean a neck-turning mandrel that doesn't hit the irregularities of the donut hole while the cutter's at play. Or decide that doesn't matter, or find a way to work around it...

You get the idea.
 
Cale, I have plenty of virgin .220 brass. I'll do what you suggested and take good measurements.

Charles, I think need to take a few steps back and start again but this time go slowly analyzing what is happening at each step. I have reference books from Tony Boyer, Mike Ratigan, Precision Shooting as well as the articles from the blog on this site. There's a lot of information there and, as you said, I have to distill the info into a process that not only makes sense to me but also works on the target. My first attempts at case forming were done by turning the necks before fireforming. Then I decided to try something else and things went awry. I'm going to work with smaller batches of brass until I fully understand what is going on at each step. I guess I tried to run before I learned how to walk.
 
Best answer

adamsgt said:
Cale, I have plenty of virgin .220 brass. I'll do what you suggested and take good measurements.

Charles, I think need to take a few steps back and start again but this time go slowly analyzing what is happening at each step. I have reference books from Tony Boyer, Mike Ratigan, Precision Shooting as well as the articles from the blog on this site. There's a lot of information there and, as you said, I have to distill the info into a process that not only makes sense to me but also works on the target. My first attempts at case forming were done by turning the necks before fireforming. Then I decided to try something else and things went awry. I'm going to work with smaller batches of brass until I fully understand what is going on at each step. I guess I tried to run before I learned how to walk.
Click to expand...



Jerry I have an idea; why don't you take a little drive out west on I-20 to Odessa? It's about a five hour drive from Ft Worth to my tunnel, paved road all the way and very little trouble with the natives. Bring your rifle and other stuff and we will go over case turning, tuning, rifle handling, etc. I can save you a lot of time, frustration and money. There is no need for you to repeat all the mistakes I've made during the past twenty-five years or so. Learn from my mistakes and make it easy on yourself. Besides, we will have a lot of fun, maybe enjoy a little mexican food and a cold one. What do you say?

Gene Beggs
 
Thanks for the invite Gene. I'll finish my post back surgery therapy Nov 5th so I'll have more freedom to travel. My email is adamsgtw@att.net. Why don't you send me a list of what gear would be nice to bring and a place to stay. I have a doctors appt on Nov 14th other than that Nov is pretty free. By the way, I bought a 6 Beggs .269 reamer from PTG over a year ago as well as dies from you and haven't done thing with them. Shame on me. :eek:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top