Ignition failures

[adamsgt]

Mike and Charles

In trying to understand the transformation of the .220 Russian into the 6 PPC I had the idea to print a .220 Russian diagram on a transparency and lay it over a print of the 6PPC diagram to get a better visualization of what moved where. Stopped at a Staples and found they only sold the transparency material in 50 sheet boxes at $70.00. So much for that bright idea. Anyway, I printed both cartridge diagrams and see that the .220 is about 6 thou longer from the case base to the neck/shoulder junction than the 6 PPC. When I put the .220 case into my rifle the bolt will close and the handle will just start to come down then stops. I remember that when I first tried making 6 PPC brass with my LV gun which has a Grizzly II action that I galled the lugs when forcing the bolt closed from that position even though I lubed. I remember that I really had to lean on the bolt handle to get it to close. So this time I decided to size the brass so the handle falls to about half way down and that's what what I did for this last batch. If that's wrong, what should I have done?

 

[Jerry Dailey]

I start with neck turned virgin brass and seat the bullets long enough that the bullet is pushed back in the case by the bolt caming. That keeps the fireing pin from pushing the case foward before getting ignition. That is the only meathod that worked for my ackley calibers and it works for my ppc's

 

[adamsgt]

I start with neck turned virgin brass and seat the bullets long enough that the bullet is pushed back in the case by the bolt caming. That keeps the fireing pin from pushing the case foward before getting ignition. That is the only meathod that worked for my ackley calibers and it works for my ppc's

OK Jerry, I did not do that and that may be the source of my problems. Rather, I did not check to see if the bullets were seated out that far. I have been using Barts bullets but decided to use some Bruno bullets that I got on clearance for the fireforming. I got sloppy at the end of the process and didn't verify the seating depth.

 

[alinwa]

Seating bullets 'long' WILL NOT hold the case back sufficiently for consistent case forming, for a variety of reasons. Yes, it'll increase the incidence of firing if your system is totally buggered but it'll not yield consistent cases. You MUST have a solid brass shoulder on the case to resist firing pin force and even those will often give way if they're not big enough.

If any of you are actually going to TEST this instead of just speculating, the best thing I've found to kill primers is soaking in acetone followed by soaking in water then a drop of light oil from a needle oiler right into the anvil area.

Shucks, read what Mike says, carefully and you can test for setback using live primers.....

 

[Wilbur]

Funny thing about that little primer "doomer" that Mike mentioned. It can get stuck in there and won't come out for a long time. I placed 4th in the NBRSA nats 3 Gun with a doomer stuck in my bolt. I knew it was there and was scared to death it would fall out before the match was over.

 

[Jerry Dailey]

On my ackley's

Seating bullets 'long' WILL NOT hold the case back sufficiently for consistent case forming, for a variety of reasons. Yes, it'll increase the incidence of firing if your system is totally buggered but it'll not yield consistent cases. You MUST have a solid brass shoulder on the case to resist firing pin force and even those will often give way if they're not big enough.

If any of you are actually going to TEST this instead of just speculating, the best thing I've found to kill primers is soaking in acetone followed by soaking in water then a drop of light oil from a needle oiler right into the anvil area.

Shucks, read what Mike says, carefully and you can test for setback using live primers.....

There was no way to make sholder contact with the chamber with virgin brass from the parent case. the only way to fire form the first time was to seat the bullets long. They went bang every time! when I did not seat long less than 1/2 would fireform. After fireforming I would bump the sholders back .001 and seat normally. That is the same way I fireform for my BR rifles and it works for me. I always have to fireform a second time with the sholders pushed against the chamber. Matter of fact, thats the way that most (that I know) do it

 

[Jerry Dailey]

If you go to the FAQ section there is a good article, 220R to 6ppc, That also recomends a hard jam

 

[adamsgt]

If you go to the FAQ section there is a good article, 220R to 6ppc, That also recomends a hard jam

Yes, I already read it again this morning. That's what I'm going to do on the 11 cases that didn't fire the second time and see the results. They haven't sent a bullet downrange yet.

 

[alinwa]

I'm not overly concerned with "what's recommended." You'll also find plenty of folks telling to to slobber grease into your chamber.....

That said, as long as you're happy with it going 'bang' I'm just wasting bandwidth.

Seat long, be happy

most are


But to those of you reading this to learn, let this be a lesson. PROPERLY chambered Ackleys are .006-.012 shorter than GO gage for crush-fit. Just as PROPERLY chambered PPC's are set up to crush-fit on PROPERLY prep'd cases. Let me repeat, seating bullets long will not hold the case back, only a proper CRUSH on virgin brass will.

BTW this statement from above is inaccurate

There was no way to make sholder contact with the chamber with virgin brass from the parent case. the only way to fire form the first time was to seat the bullets long.

While it does go to show that the "gunsmith" who chambered the barrel is incompetent it IS NOT "impossible to make shoulder contact." It's just a lot of work! To fix this sort of situation the correct solution is to 'false shoulder' the cases.

Furthermore this is also the correct solution for all those 6BR's that don't shoot.....99% of the 6BR chambers out there are too long too.

These situations IMO illustrate the need for one to be careful when choosing a gunsmith for anything other than slopping SAAMI standard chambers into factory rifles.

If you want ACCURACY then you must spend enough money to gain a deep understanding of the parameters and do the work yourself or you must hire an ACCURACY gunsmith and be very clear with him. And SHUT UP about the bill, pay it happily and with a broad, sincere smile. He doesn't get paid enough.


opinionsby


al

 

[adamsgt]

Finally did something I should have done early on. Dug around and found five loaded rounds for this gun left over from last year. Took them out to the range this morning and "click" nothing. So, that means the problem is in the gun as that brass fired all last year. The only thing I can think of now is that something occurred while removing and replacing the firing pin while checking headspace. I'll call Bat later this afternoon when they open the phone lines for two hours. In the meantime I'm going to remove the firing pin again and place that along with the bolt in my ultrasonic cleaner and see if that stirs anything up.

Well, that seems to have done it. Pulled a couple of bullets and fired the primers and got a much deeper primer hit. Will go to the range again tomorrow and feel much more confident that this will work.

 

[Mike Bryant]

Is this a bayonet bolt shroud or one of the earlier screw in bolt shrouds? If its a screw in shroud, make sure to thread it in all the way until it stops, then back it up just enough to sit in the notch above the cocking ramp. Ive seen rifles where the owner took the firing pin assemly out to clean it and lacked a full turn getting it back to where it needed to be. If it's a bayonet mount, turn the bolt shroud until the cocking piece is at the bottom of the cocking ramp and check how much firing pin protrusion you have. Normal protrusion is .050 to .060".

 

[adamsgt]

I'm guessing I have the screw in because it screws in. Have no idea what the bayonet type would look like. I do screw it in all the way and then back up. I don't know what you mean about a "notch" above the cocking ramp. Don't remember seeing a notch there. How do I check firing pin protrusion? I have decocking tools for my Palma rifles but I don't know how I would decock and recock these bat bolts.

Just got off the phone with Bat and feel better about the bolt. Guy said that this action was built by a former Bat employee and was well done. He concurred that firing pin assembly was probably dirty. I'm going to the range one more time tomorrow to verify the bolt performance.

 

[alinwa]

I'm guessing I have the screw in because it screws in. Have no idea what the bayonet type would look like. I do screw it in all the way and then back up. I don't know what you mean about a "notch" above the cocking ramp. Don't remember seeing a notch there. How do I check firing pin protrusion? I have decocking tools for my Palma rifles but I don't know how I would decock and recock these bat bolts.

Just got off the phone with Bat and feel better about the bolt. Guy said that this action was built by a former Bat employee and was well done. He concurred that firing pin assembly was probably dirty. I'm going to the range one more time tomorrow to verify the bolt performance.

Yup, I got one a' them too..... the notch is really small and generally only a quarter turn (or less) back from bottomed on a CLEAN bolt. The notch is just past the top of the cocking ramp. If you use gloves or a towel and have moderately strong fingers you can turn the rear of the bolt manually and get the striker to climb the ramp, juuuust over the top you'll feel the detent, then 'bump' again and then bottomed out.

Did you check the inside the bolt body for doomers?

al

 

[adamsgt]

Did you check the inside the bolt body for doomers?

al

Yep. The guns cased and in my car right now. I plan on making another trip to the range tomorrow morning right from my physical therapy session. I'll look for the notch now that I've got a better idea of what to look for.

 

[adamsgt]

Success

Well, the gun went BANG every time I pulled the trigger this morning. When I removed the bolt to grease the lugs I inspected the back end of the bolt and saw a couple of small pieces of debris in the shroud. I picked them out and they were cream colored and felt like hardened shellac or something similar. Couldn't find anything else in there. Wondered if that was some kind of sealing compound that came loose. When I talked to BAT yesterday the guy said there are a couple of set screws that hold the spring and are sealed with loctite. Maybe that was it. Anyway, I feel a lot better now. I'll be going to spend a weekend at Gene Beggs tunnel and hope to learn a lot from him. I'll just have to decide if I can carry everything I want to take in my new Escape or if I should load it all in my F-250. I'm hoping for the Escape because 16 MPG at diesel prices doesn't make the pickup very attractive.

 

[Gene Beggs]

Well, the gun went BANG every time I pulled the trigger this morning. When I removed the bolt to grease the lugs I inspected the back end of the bolt and saw a couple of small pieces of debris in the shroud. I picked them out and they were cream colored and felt like hardened shellac or something similar. Couldn't find anything else in there. Wondered if that was some kind of sealing compound that came loose. When I talked to BAT yesterday the guy said there are a couple of set screws that hold the spring and are sealed with loctite. Maybe that was it. Anyway, I feel a lot better now. I'll be going to spend a weekend at Gene Beggs tunnel and hope to learn a lot from him. I'll just have to decide if I can carry everything I want to take in my new Escape or if I should load it all in my F-250. I'm hoping for the Escape because 16 MPG at diesel prices doesn't make the pickup very attractive.

Jerry if you do not have a bolt disengagement tool for your Bat action you should call Sinclair today and order one. We will need it during our work in the tunnel. I like the Kleinendorst tool but I'm sure they have others that will work. Looking forward to working with you.

Gene Beggs

 

[adamsgt]

Jerry if you do not have a bolt disengagement tool for your Bat action you should call Sinclair today and order one. We will need it during our work in the tunnel. I like the Kleinendorst tool but I'm sure they have others that will work. Looking forward to working with you.

Gene Beggs

I have the Kleinendorst tool. I'm also going to neck turn about 20 cases and stop there so we can go through some fireform procedures. Is 20 enough?