If you Really want Benchrest to grow

Jerry H

Jerry H

Different Drummer
Try this idea on for size. I have read all of the other thread and I don't think you want to limit it to just IBS. I think you have to go back to the startup days of BR competition. Run what you brung! Throw out ALL of the rules regarding equipment, anything is legal so long as it isn't damaging to the range or unusually disruptive to adjacent benches(hot brass, muzzel blast, and bench vibration come to mind) and is reasonably safe to shoot. Establish classes based strickly on performance. Your first registered match is "unqualified" class. You compete with other UQs. A new shooter could win or do well first time out and still be competitive from then on. This would help get member numbers up. Your score will determine your starting class. Example for group would be class A .250 grand or better, B .250 to .400, C .4001 and higher. In the case of score shooting, use 485 grand or better for class A, 450-484 for class B, and less than 450 for class C. These classes may be adjusted with experience to provide reasonable participation levels in each class. By not having too many classes, you should get enough participitation. Once you have shot a better score than your class, you remain in the higher class. This should reduce sand bagging. You cannot revert to a lower class. I believe people would compete more at what ever comfort level they can afford in time and money.
 
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Jerry H
You hit all the right notes here, however the people that run both of these organizations want to keep "THEIR" sport pure! Different classes for different abilities exist in every single shooting sport, except benchrest! The old school guys in benchrest are like an ostrich with their heads stuck in the sand, they would rather see the sport die than give in to a new idea such as creating what you have suggested. You see if you go out and spend lets say $3500.00 for used stuff to get started in group BR
and you attend a few matches you soon realize that you ain't got a prayer of winning crap, and thats the way they want to keep it, a young guy on a limited budget can't hang with the big dogs in BR. If your fortunate to have one of the big name shooters in your area thats willing to mentor you you will probably work through most of the problems that a new shooter encounters, and with a bit of ability you can rise above the majority of new shooters. Then after continuing to attend matches and still not doing well, the new shooter with the used rig decides its not worth the effort and dumps his gear and moves on to a different shooting sport were he can compete with shooters who are defined by class's according to their ability. Sounds simple but all the BR guys will jump in on this thread and say, things like I wouldn't compete if they started classes in BR or if you can't shoot as well as the guys that have been shooting for 20 years you should choose another discipline, and on and on!I am not a keyboard commando that speaks without the benefit of having been an active BR competitor, and I can tell you this ain't never going to happen. I can recall a question posed to a hall of fame shooter in AZ, that was asked why don't they shoot a Hunter BR match at the Phoenix range, and I will never forget his answer "That Ain't Never Going To Flippin Happen Here" I substituted Flippin for the 4 letter explicitive that he used. That is the prevailing attitude and until it changes the numbers of people attracted to short range BR will continue to dwindle!
 
Classes/Factory rifles/ Modified rifles/etc... Sounds great on paper, why don't you folks who want this done approach a club and offer to setup and run a demonstration match for a season to show everybody else how well it works? Somebody had the IDEA for UBR and put the EFFORT into it and look where it took them. Maybe instead of telling people that IBS/NBRSA don't " want me and my ideas" show eyerybody why it was is such a great IDEA.
 
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We already have a club were you can shoot whatever you bring,1st saturday of each month of 14-20 guys that show up 12- have really nice BR rigs and nice equipment, a few shoot factory rifles, Savage heavy Barrels .308 and sometimes while we shoot group the factory guys shoot score targets. The gent that runs the shoot, takes care of scoring and we don't hand out any wood or certificates! I once suggested registering the match with the NBRSA, and the comment from at least half of them was they would not participate if that was done. I also belong to a club that wants to hold VFS or Hunter matches and I would run them gladly but once again a big hell no to registering the matches So as you can see we just have a friendly club shoot, and I am beginning to understand why those are just as enjoyable as going to a big BR match. By the way the same group also shoots a 600 yard match 3rd Sat each month and this month they are giving away 2 trued up 700 actions one for best group the other for best score, and once again no restrictions shoot what you got!
MRL can you honsetly say that having a class for new shooters or different levels wouldn't work? Like I said earlier the ney sayers will always have a reason why it can't or shouldn't be done, after all the NBRSA recently embraced varmit for score, not a new idea, but with continually decreasing numbers of short range group shooters, they needed a new revenue stream and it appeals to a broader range of guys that already have a heavy varmit rifle and you have no restriction on scope power or case capacity! This should be an inclusive sport but it seems to me after shooting for 17 years the it is an exclusive, sport and it runs the way it does for the handful of elite shooters that sit at the top of the winners list month after month year after year, don't get me wrong there are a bunch of nice guys in bench rest that give their time , money and advice, and they are to be commended for their advancement of the sport. Just look at the list of shooters that make Team USA every other year, while they are the best of the best the list changes very little year after year. I would also direct you to look at highpower shooters, When a team is fielded at the natioanal level each team is required to have 2 new shooters! Why doesent the NBRSA or IBS adaopt a system like that, all internatioanl teams would be required to have 2 new shooters. I am just tossing out idea's that might bolster a more positive attitude towards BR in general. Maybe none of these idea's work but sitting around with no new idea's ain't working so well either!
 
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Steelhead Don't know where I said it won't work what I thought I said was, Show people how well it works. Do not give them grief for not doing it for you, why should somebody else do the work if the people who say that they feel left out won't do for themselves. Maybe it is time to step up to the line and show everybody else how to do it right.
 
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Steelhead1 said:
I once suggested registering the match with the NBRSA, and the comment from at least half of them was they would not participate if that was done.
I also belong to a club that wants to hold VFS or Hunter matches and I would run them gladly but once again a big hell no to registering the matches So as you can see we just have a friendly club shoot, and I am beginning to understand why those are just as enjoyable as going to a big BR match.
Click to expand...

So if this is the response from the shooters about registering the matches with IBS or NBRSA, how would changing anything in IBS or NBRSA convince those shooters to register the matches?? Why do they NOT want to shoot in registered matches?? Ian
 
I wonder, what are you trying to promote with this idea, improvements in firearm accuracy as was benchrests original goal , or are you just trying to get more guns at the bench shooting?
 
primarily to increase participation
my opinion for reasons for decline are in order
1 economy
2 older shooters are leaving faster than new ones comming in
3 pure competition shooters have run off the social and experimentor type shooters
as they don't stand a chance of doing well once in awhile

it takes all 3 types of shooters to make up the organizations

social shooters do all of the work to make matches happen and be enjoyable for all
experimentors develope higher accuracy ideas
competition shooters prove or disprove new ideas which takes care of the "improvements in accuracy goal"
 
Jerry \I think the goal is to get more people involved in BR shooting, I can tell you that when I first attended the Hunter nationals, at both Sherwood Oregon,and Deckerts place in South Dakota, there were about 140+ shooters,now its half that in a 10 year span! Likewise I attend the Cactus almost every year since 1997 and the numbers there were 180+ shooters npw they are lucky to draw 130, the numbers are trending down so how do you correct that without finding a solution that brings more shooters into the sport? I think Jerry H is correct create a class system that shooters can shoot with others of the same ability and /or equipment level. Was it 2 years ago the NBRSA or IBS let AR-15's to compete on a 1 year trial, I never saw one at a match but at least they were willing to give them a chance. All shooting disiplines with the exception of Benchrest have a class system which recognizes that not everyone has Tony Boyers ability the first day that they decide to jump into our sport. It takes years in some cases to suceed at benchrest, and some never do they just shoot BR because they love to come to a match and thats OK. If there isn't an large infusion of new blood into the sport, how much longer will it last, at the current level of new people starting the sport? Face it youg people today aren't inclined to start BR shooting, its an old guys sport, boring! Here's a poll I would like to see, how many shooters that attend Benchrest matches that you know are under 30 years old! find the answer to that and you will have an idea of how many new shooters you need to sustain this sport. Now if you create a class system the new guy doesn't get discouraged after a season of going home with nothing to show for his efforts! How difficult would it be to have a new shooter class, were for the first 2 years they compete against others of like ability, and take home a piece of wood for their efforts! If their ability increases dramatically in the first year they move up to compete with the big guns. I'm not talking about club matches that are not following NBRSA rules and allowing a run what you brung shoot. I am talking strictly NBRSA or IBS registered matches.

Ian, I wish I had an answer as to why this club doesnt want their matches registered, but here's the best part they were affiliated with the NBRSA they used to be listed every month in the NBRSA news! Snakeriver Sportsman, Vale Oregon, contact was Kerry Kegel.
 
Taking Jerry's ideas just a little way, tweaks that would help:

1. Turn one of the bag gun classes into a weight-restricted & bag restricted only class. Personally, I don't care if it's LV, HV, or sporter. The weight restriction shouldn't be set higher than 17 pounds (1K LG), or maybe 22 pounds if you want to let the F-class guys bring what they got.

This would clearly be a class for the experimenters, though you wouldn't have to be an experimenter to be successful. To extend this to score shooting would be a good idea I think, but the politics would be much harder -- you don't really want to add more classes to score, and to make VFS unrestricted save for (1) weight & (2) shooting off bags probably wouldn't pass -- even though that is the real world of varmint hunting. Actually, it's the real world of pretty much anything, these days.

2. In group matches, if the format is 4-gun, have the unlimited & new class on the same day. The new guys could surely skip that day if they chose; the experimenters could skip the other day.

Which offers a number of people a one day match that still has a lot of significance for them. The cost of a motel & missing a day of work is far from insignificant.

I may not be typical, but that's what moved me from group to score. Costs to go to a match dropped to gasoline & one or two meals. Don't have to coordinate with the wife to make sure the animals get fed. On & on.

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Here's just a hint. There s a post now on bag hardness. Pretty much common agreement that "hard bags cause vertical." I don't know if it was Jerry Hensler who started it, but he's one of the guys that pioneered running a rail gun with steel & carbide. Don't get much harder that that, until you propose marriage...

Ah, you say, but a rail carriage is so much heavier. And so it is. What's the cross-over point, then? And just for giggles, what's really going on with soft bags -- either you don't know, or you're not sharing. (I'd share, I just don't know. Gonna take some time to try & find out.) Lot of things like this.
 
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Successful non-sanctioned events have a sort of "je ne sais quoi" flavor that would be spoiled (or perceived spoiled) by sanctioning. Often, the level of competition is the similar but the notion of having to let just anyone through the gate (with a rule book in their back pocket) seems a turnoff.

Dick Wright spoke of a like circumstance years ago......
 
I believe John Jones was the first to try carbide. I eventually went to teflon impregnated acetal points with carbide rails. Rail bounce is a problem that is real and inherent base and top vibrations have yet to be defeated other than by shear mass.
 
Jerry H said:
\Rail bounce is a problem that is real and inherent base and top vibrations have yet to be defeated other than by shear mass.
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To hijack the thread for a moment -- I promise not to do it again -- as I see it, vibrations are not a problem if they begin after the bullet has cleared the barrel. One thought would be to use a device like Vaughn proposed -- let everything catch up later. Then the problem is to damp everything quickly enough so the next shot can be quickly fired...

I'm working on some things for bag guns I hope will be legal. Two problems: (1) There is one of me, & I'm not too sharp. (2) Even if ... I'm not good enough, or shoot enough, to make sure any result works. We're talking small differences here, and it takes what Jerry calls the competitors really wringing something out to get enough clear data. And before that happens, they have to be intreagued...
 
Steelhead,

The IBS does a "Rookie of the Year" award in the various disciplines. That has been done that way for many years.

Jeff
 
I believe this is the wrong thread for all the posts since Jeff Stovers. Mr. Hensler's thread was for growing BR generally, and posited, in effect, starting over.

Having said that, regarding the IBS Rookie of the Year:

1. I believe this falls under the general scope of Shooter of the Year, and the systems by which points are awarded for SOTY are determined by the various committees. That is, what counts in long range can be quite difference than what counts for score.

2. By in large, competing for SOTY involves a commitment to traveling to a lot of matches as well as shooting well. This strikes me as perfectly appropriate. There are the National Championships for one kind of recognition -- you can enter only those, and still be a national Champion. The Shooter of the Year recognizes a different competitive success, which includes shooting a lot.

Where this breaks down is it is perhaps unreasonable to expect a rookie to commit to making as many matches as a seasoned shooter. However, unless the various committees (all unpaid volunteers, by the way) take the time to come up with a different basis for the award, that's how it's going to be done.

I am not sure if the various Nationals have to recognize the "rookie champion" I believe we did this whenever the old Hawks Ridge club hosted the 1,000 yard national championships, but I don't know if it's an IBS requirement.

Returning to Jerry's point -- if anyone is still reading rather than trying to immediately form counterarguments -- this addresses the shooters with a competitive drive only. It does nothing for the experimenter nor social shooter, and in the beginning anyway, most newcomers are interested in those elements.
 
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Steelhead1 said:
Jerry \I think the goal is to get more people involved in BR shooting, I can tell you that when I first attended the Hunter nationals, at both Sherwood Oregon,and Deckerts place in South Dakota, there were about 140+ shooters,now its half that in a 10 year span! Likewise I attend the Cactus almost every year since 1997 and the numbers there were 180+ shooters npw they are lucky to draw 130, the numbers are trending down so how do you correct that without finding a solution that brings more shooters into the sport? I think Jerry H is correct create a class system that shooters can shoot with others of the same ability and /or equipment level. Was it 2 years ago the NBRSA or IBS let AR-15's to compete on a 1 year trial, I never saw one at a match but at least they were willing to give them a chance. All shooting disiplines with the exception of Benchrest have a class system which recognizes that not everyone has Tony Boyers ability the first day that they decide to jump into our sport. It takes years in some cases to suceed at benchrest, and some never do they just shoot BR because they love to come to a match and thats OK. If there isn't an large infusion of new blood into the sport, how much longer will it last, at the current level of new people starting the sport? Face it youg people today aren't inclined to start BR shooting, its an old guys sport, boring! Here's a poll I would like to see, how many shooters that attend Benchrest matches that you know are under 30 years old! find the answer to that and you will have an idea of how many new shooters you need to sustain this sport. Now if you create a class system the new guy doesn't get discouraged after a season of going home with nothing to show for his efforts! How difficult would it be to have a new shooter class, were for the first 2 years they compete against others of like ability, and take home a piece of wood for their efforts! If their ability increases dramatically in the first year they move up to compete with the big guns. I'm not talking about club matches that are not following NBRSA rules and allowing a run what you brung shoot. I am talking strictly NBRSA or IBS registered matches.

Ian, I wish I had an answer as to why this club doesnt want their matches registered, but here's the best part they were affiliated with the NBRSA they used to be listed every month in the NBRSA news! Snakeriver Sportsman, Vale Oregon, contact was Kerry Kegel.
Click to expand...


Gary, I agree with a lot of what you said. And some of your suggestions are good ones. I am fully aware that at the current rate, BR will be dead as a doornail in less than 30 years. I will be alive and be one of the only folks still shooting BR here when that day comes. It will be a sad day for sure, and I'll have lots of equipment that will suddenly become useless. But, I'd rather see it go down that way knowing that we kept the tradition alive and pursued the goals that true BR stands for until the very end rather than losing sight of the goal just to "popularize" the game to a broader range of shooters. Some may call that "stubborn" and the very reason the game will die. But I think we are trying to achieve something that is pushing the envelope of accuracy and anything that doesn't do that is not going to accomplish that goal. Like it's been said, if you're not moving forward, you're going backwards.
I am in that "younger" class you speak of (youngest self-promoted BR shooter in the southwest region), and what drew me to BR was not the possibility of shooting my hunting rifle in a match, or getting trophies just for being "the new guy". But rather, it was the idea of joining the ranks of folks who are building the most accurate guns known to man, and trying to combine that machine with the human capacity to see just how small a group that combination can produce. To me, a bughole in a target card is as sweet to look at as a 30" buck, a candy apple red Shelby Cobra, or a supermodel in a bikini. That's how much I love seeing small groups. Yes, it's tough to achieve those size groups. Yes, it's a tough sport for beginners. Yes, it can be frustrating enough to pull your hair out (coming home from the Roadrunner in NM last week, I had 600 miles to contemplate just what the 'ell I was doing playing this game), but in the end, Tom Hanks said it perfectly in A League of Their Own: It's supposed to be hard. If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it. The hard is what makes it great."
 
If you want to get BR back on its feet, let's make sure that we send a Republican to the Whitehouse this November! I don't know about you guys, but Obamanomics has really crimped my cash flow and therefore my discretionary cash. A lot of the local shooters are now very budget conscious and don't see any changes on the horizon with the Democrats at the helm.
 
Don't throw the towel in yet

Whats happening to BR membership is happening to all Hobby's/Sports,that are run and attended by volunteers.,and for the same reason's. Economy,attrition, loss of interest and Individual choices based on life's priorities.
If there is a guaranteed fix for the reason's stated,it hasn't been discovered yet. Invite or Bring a shooting buddy to a Benchrest Match and let him or her decide. Don't discourage factory rifle classes,that's how most people got introduced to Benchrest Competition. An open door policy is always best when you don't pay salaries.

Glenn
 
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