IBS new safety rule

Dear Jackie

First off there was NO I repeat NO new IBS rule implemented because of a 9 Year old asking a question. Second of all you are right there is no such thing as a unloaded rifle killing anyone, but as part of a target crew while down range do you know all bolts are OUT and no gun is loaded?? I have wittnessed as a competitor loaded a gun and fired a round before commence fire, who I will say was over 60 not 9. I can tell you it will make you think. Those are the people that got the new IBS rules not the 9 year old who by the way was sitting with me and yes he was told as long as the bolt was out and the gun was unloaded here today it was ok to do what we were doing ( Which is still WRONG ).
As far as our rule about the no guns on the benchs we were told by the IBS that we could in fact do that as long as we didn't make the rules less strict than the IBS Rule.
Lets think about the only person that has been killed by at a registered match. I believe ( and Jim Borden may be able to help me with this ) she was killed as her and her husband tried to remove a stuck round in the gun. WOW who would have thunk it.......Anyway we will move on and do our best to keep people safe even though you guys are really showing the ingnorance that is associated with this sport. We can't even try to keep people safer without people getting all bent.........................Leon
 
Rules, Rules, And MORE Rules, This is why we do not register the Super Shoot. Eventually the rule makers will make it so a shoot like the Super Shoot can not be held in a timely manner. I have read both IBS and NBRSA rulebooks more times than I can remember, there are plenty of rules already to address every situation I have encountered in 29 years of rangeofficering. And believe me I think I have seen it all. One of the biggest problems I have seen is that the ranger officer at the match is not in control and most times does not understand the rules we have and how to apply them. Bill Gammon said it best, the range officer is GOD while you are at the range.

On the rules, our lawyer has told us for years the least amount of rules you have the least likely you are to get sued. The more rules you have and do not enforce the easier it is for the person sueing to win. And what I have heard on the two incidents that caused the new rules, it was quite obvious that they were clear violations of rules already in place. So if the new rules are not enforced due to lack of ranage and range officer's knowledge what good are the new rules.

I have no problem with the new IBS rules, but if you take the gun on the line offftill range crew is back you can kiss the nationals and anyother four relay match gone from our shooting season. Have you seen some of the shooters and how long it takes them to set up. JUST ENFORCE THE RULES WE HAVE!!!!!!!!

Jim
 
James A. Kelbly said:
On the rules, our lawyer has told us for years the least amount of rules you have the least likely you are to get sued. The more rules you have and do not enforce the easier it is for the person sueing to win. And what I have heard on the two incidents that caused the new rules, it was quite obvious that they were clear violations of rules already in place. So if the new rules are not enforced due to lack of ranage and range officer's knowledge what good are the new rules.

Jim
Click to expand...

Your lawyer is very wise Jim. I've stayed out of this post, but, my first thought was how the creation of these new rules has the effect of relieving the unsafe shooter from liability and placing that liability on the range officer and host club to protect these people from themselves. I doubt anyone even considered this when passing these new rules. If we truly want to protect the clubs and the national organizations, we should not be affraid to suspend or permanently excommunicate those who violate the safety rules and place others lives and property at risk.
 
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I can see why some people feel so strongly in favor of the new "safety" rules. There have been incidents that have occurred which brought these about, but let's be honest, these rules are more about liability than safety. In today's litigious society, that is the bottom line of most "safety" rules. Our government and judicial system have, in their "infinite wisdom", decided that we must be protected from ourselves. Juries and judges these days feel that they must "send a message" with each new unrealistic award, and there is no end in sight. Such is the way of life in the modern day USA.

In reality, if the Range Officer or Safety Officer checks "bolts out" following a cease fire, there is much less possibility of another incident than with the scramble to remove and replace equipment in the time between relays (which seems to get shorter and shorter in response to pressures to end the match earlier).

Think about the club's liability if someone falls, hits their head on the bench, and dies in their rush to replace their rifle on the bench and get set up in the limited time alloted before each target. Obviously an extreme example, but it "could" happen.

I remember my first match, and I was amazed that shooters were walking around with rifle barrels pointed in the direction of other shooters. Wow, what a safety hazard thought "newbie" me. Then I came to realize that the bolts out rule was the only way to maintain safety at these matches. It would be impossible to run a match where at no time was a barrel pointed at another competitor, even if only in a cleaning cradle.

With the direction we are heading (carried to the extreme ;)), we may eventually have "safety crews", whose sole job will be to place competitor's rifles on the bench and distribute their ammo only after the call to the benches, and to remove the rifles and ammo after cease fire :eek:. Obviously this is a ridiculously over-dramatized example (I hope!!!!), but I wonder why we as a society have come to the point of personal responsibility being replaced by the collective need to "protect" us from ourselves.

I have been on the board of directors of more than one gun club over the years, and yes, it gives me pause as to what could happen if some new or negligent shooter does something bad. It has happened, and will happen again. It all comes down to the FACT that there is no way to be absolutely 100% safe for everyone at all times. Unfortunately, I can imagine at some future time, and maybe not all that far away, we will have no more matches, and no organized clubs or ranges.Society in general would like to see us go away.

Yes, we absolutely have to have real safety rules, but the "bolts out" rule is the ultimate safety rule. If this makes me a dinosaur, then so be it.

Jim
 
Leon, you said "Anyway we will move on and do our best to keep people safe even though you guys are really showing the ingnorance that is associated with this sport. We can't even try to keep people safer without people getting all bent"​

Let's look at this objectively, by analyzing the risk. I have not counted up how many two-day IBS and NBRSA group and score matches there there are each year, but for the sake of argument let's say there were fifty shoots (I think there were more though). If you assume an average of two relays (which is low the actual may be between 2 and 3 relays) there would be 40 target changes per weekend, with no warm-up. So with 50 shoots that would be 2,000 target changes per year. I think that number is very low, but I want to be conservative. If you average 50 shooters at each shoot then there would be 50,000 rifles on the rests between target changes (50 shooters x 20 targets x 50 shoots). Let's further assume that this has been a reasonable rate of participation since the late 1960's. That is, say 40 years. So multiply the 40 years x 50,000 rifles on the line and what to you get? Two Million rifles that sat on rests pointing at the target butts. The real number is likely much more than that.

I am ready to stand corrected, but when have we had an accident or serious safety violation when the target crew was working? Yes, there has been at least one instance where there was an early shot, but not, as far as I know, when the target crew was there.

Having said that, where is our REAL exposure? With rifles that have malfunctioned. I am aware of two (and there may be more) tragedies. The first one was when there was a stuck case and a cleaning rod was used the remove the case, but the rod was never removed. The next shot was fired and the extreme pressure caused a fragment to lodge in the the shooter head. He later died. I apologize I do not have a venue or date on that one. It MAY have been at one of the sanctioned benchrest schools, rather than an registered competition, but for this argument let us count it.

The second is the one reported earlier when a shooter's wife held the butt end of the rifle when the shooter tried to dislodge a loaded round that would not chamber. He rammed a cleaning rod down which pushed the bullet into the case which somehow cause the cartridge to fire. The bolt was out of the rifle and the case went backward into the poor lady. I have heard that in such instances the bolt should be open (of course) but remain in the gun to provide a something of a shield, albeit likely ineffective.

So here we have two deaths surrounding rifles that have had malfunctions. How many malfunctions of this sort do we have per year? Dunno. I don't think all that many. I will be "generous" and say one every other shoot - that would be 25 instances per year based on our 50 shoot year. So for 40 years that is 1000 malfunctions - and we had 2 fatalities that I know of. Based on my calculations you have a .2% chance of dying or causing a fatality if you are attempting to clear a malfunction. That is pretty high in my book. A rifle being taken from the line with a loaded round in it scares the crap out of me. If we are going to truly improve safety the one genuine place we need to look is how to properly handle a rifle that has a problem. I would like to hear the opinion of seasoned competitors and gunsmiths as to the guidelines to use in such instances.

I am all for rules-and certainly for safety-but let us only impose rules from which we derive real actual benefit, not merely perceived benefit.

The issue of liability for ranges and the organizations has been raised. Although I am not an attorney, I frequently deal with indemnification and hold harmless clauses in agreements related to railroads. Such agreements are necessary; the attorneys will privately tell you, however, that everyone will get sued anyway.

Bolts out. Rifles on rests. Enough said.

Jim Kelbly: Thanks for your comments.

*******************************
Daddy, what's a tuner?? Son, once upon a time in the magical land of fine rifles there was a great debate. Some hailed hosannas over the exalted and mysterious devices whilst others in the rifle realm railed "nay" and cried heresy! Then, one day at the Super Shoot, the clouds parted, the sun broke through and a thunderous voice (no, not George) was heard by all the world's riflemen. The voice was was so loud and omnipresent, the utterance was felt as well as heard. "Esteemed Master Riflemen, hear me lest you forever wallow in ignorance. I am here to tell you the ultimate truth from the lofty heights of benchrest nirvana, tuners ARE..."...son...son...are you asleep already? Good night. :D

jks
 
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Leon

I believe that who ever in the IBS told you that is just flat wrong. You cannot just start making up your own rules for Registered Competition. That is why we have a rule book.
Neither the IBS or the NBRSA has any prohibition concerning Rifles sitting on the Bench during target changes.
I stand by my originol statement. If you attempt to take away from, or add to, an existing set of guidelines that are part of the official rules of the Sanctioning Body, then you are in violation of the Sanction. You can have your match, but it should not be sanctioned.
........jackie
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Rifles off bench during target change is voluntary. If the club officers deem it necessary, I will respect their decision, not ridicule them for being overly cautious. They bear the responsibility. Can we afford to lose more ranges if we refuse to comply with the concerns of a host clubs membership.
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I DON'T CARE IF THE F'n BOLTS OUT &THE BORE IS WELDED SHUT & THE ACTION IS FILLED WITH CONCRETE------------IT IS WRONG !!!, I REPEAT--WRONG TO CARRY THE RIFLE THE WAY SOME OF YOU GUYS DO. YOU LOOK LIKE A BUNCH OF ELMER FUDD'S AND BOZO'S AND DOES OUR SPORT NO GOOD. YOU ARE GIVING THOSE OUT THERE WHO WANT TO SHUT OUR RANGES DOWN AMMUNITION THAT WE WON'T BE ABLE TO EXPLAIN AWAY. ---"WELL THEY ARE SAFE, THE BOLTS OUT- JUST A PIECE OF PIPE WITHOUT IT"---------DO YOU THINK THE GENERAL PUBLIC KNOW WHAT THIS "BOLT THING" IS?
I was taught to carry muzzle down at all times, and there is NO REASON ON GOD'S EARTH THAT WE SHOULDN'T BE PRACTICING AT LEAST THIS ONE CARDINAL RULE.
"WHAT'S THE POINT? THAT'S BEING REDUNDANT" YOU SAY.
#1- COMPLACENTCY--OUT OF HABIT WILL YOU MIS-HANDLE ANOTHER RIFLE IN ANOTHER VENUE (HUNTING) AND CREATE A DANGER TO OTHERS #2- SET AN EXAMPLE -SHOW OTHERS WE PRACTICE SAFE GUN HANDLING WHENEVER POSSIBLE. THANK YOU & GOODNIGHT.
 
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Has nothing to do with "true integrity"

It's a simple matter of disagreement and your words have more to do with perception than actual safety. Stay focused and try to avoid the "win/lose" syndrome.

As I understand it, we're trying to prevent folks from getting shot at the range.
 
Jackie

I'm fairly sure that a club can add to but not take away from the sanctioning orgs rules. Insisting that safety glasses be worn inside the gate would be an example as well as no rifles on the line during a target change. Conversely, when running out of daylight it would not be acceptable to run less than 30 minutes relay1 to relay1.
 
Thank you, Mr. Wilbur, Sir. I respect your opinion and it has been a pleasure to chit-chat with you.Perhaps on another post how we can discuss the perception part of the equation- which I strongly believe we must win in order for this game to survive a few more years.
 
Rifles on rests

The following is offered as information so that we can clear up whether or not there have been any changes.
When I shot my first registered group match in 1979 at South Creek--no rifles were allowed on the rests until the range officer gave the command after the range crew came back. It was a few years after I started before South Creek Changed that procedure.

The rule book from 1976 (Rule book 5) Section IV Paragraph A states:
Occupancy of benches
............Rifles may not be placed on the rests or pointed down range until commanded by the Range Officer.

the 1978 version (Rule book 6) says the same.
The 1983 updated rulebook (Rule book 8) has the paragraph changed to state:
At the discretion of the host range, the placing of rifles on rests between matches is allowed provided that the "bolts out except between proper commands" rule is retained.


That rule has not changed. It is still stated that way now. So if a club chooses as Vermont did--they can not allow rifles on rests until the range crew is back. That is their decision.


IBS has in no way made it a requirement that clubs mandate that rifles are off rests until the Range crew is back. That is at the discretion of the club.

Jim
 
As I remember from my last time at South Creek during an "indoor" winter shoot, they had another target board that was changed out in the clubhouse, and the entire target change only took a minute anyhow. They drove the whole board up on the back of a pickup and two guys pulled the old and replaced with the new.

I also remember waiting to be instructed to place rifles on the rest, and do not recall thinking it took even a minute more time. That's just me, and I never gave it a thought at the time either tho. To someone else who's already accustomed to not doing that, it may be noticeable. I don't know.
 
I was wrong

I guess it is up to a individule clubs descretion if it wants to impliment more strict safety rules. I should have got out my IBS Rule book and read it more closely..........jackie
 
So you BR shooters do not use open bolt indicators (chamber flags)?

Metallic Silhouette match safety rules require that an open bolt indicator (a yellow plastic 'flag' device sold for $2) be inserted into the chamber at all times while at the line until the 'ready' command has been issued.

At the 'ceasefire' command, the chamber is cleared, the magazine removed, and the yellow indicator inserted - bolts are opened but not removed. The rifle stays propped on a firing line rack immediately next to shooter while target setters run out to reset, meanwhile shooter can not touch or handle the rifle.

Rifles not at the line are kept in vertical racks at the rear, with the open bolt indicator inserted.

This rule has the same net effect as the BR bolt removal rule, with the added benefit that the safe status of any rifle - whether on the line or not - is readily apparent for all to see as the yellow 'flag' is visible from quite a distance away.

Our National and Provincial silhouette championships have 70-100 shooters in attendance, with many many relays and shooters repositioning 4x per match, 2 matches per day, and spotting scopes with spotter behind every shooter. A busy place at relay change, lol, yet the yellow open bolt indicators combined with strict muzzle control discipline makes for a very relaxing, safe and friendly environment = fun.

And yes, the match director and his range officers are Gods, with the power to DQ or send home those who breach the rules.

IIRC, the NRA sells open bolt indicators cheap...
 
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