IBS new safety rule

Good point Shiloh. When we opened up the new 200 yard range at my club back in the late 80's I had a" hands on" in a lot of the construction of the firing line. Being a licensed electrician at that time, I put in the electrical service for the maintenance building and firing line and the 200 yard movable backer system....

For safety on the line, I installed several red A-19 incandescent bulbs at the forward edge of the firing line roof in front of the benches spaced about 10 or so feet apart. I put switches on the roofs support posts about the same distance apart for the shooters to use. I installed a 105 DB Fire Alarm style buzzer on time delayed/alternating on/off 120 V timing relay(s). This light/buzzer system made us a nice firing line, " cease fire /clear bolt" notification system.

Whenever the RO needed a cease fire, or a shooter was changing targets (match or not) the RO or practing shooter simply flips one of the switches "on" that is close to them, (after asking for a "all clear" of the line in a non -emergency case) the red lights will come on first and start flashing, then with a adjustable time delay after they come on, the buzzer loudly buzzes in a alternate cycle until the activating switch is turned off. ....

The system works well for the hearing impaired and makes the guys feel a lot safer when their changing targets, while hearing that buzzer sound off every 1 minute or so and seeing the red lights blinking at the firing line. There is less chance of the danger of anyone that was NOT at the line or that is hearing impaired of NOT knowing the range is closed for firing. There is really no excuse with this system for one NOT abiding by the" bolt open hands off rule". The system really wasnt all that expensive to install vs. the costs /ramifications of someone getting hurt by a gun accident...
 
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HAving witnessed - -

LHSmith said:
Mr. Pendergraft: As you see it,"overboard" is: (1) Showing bolts out while remained seated, (2) mandatory safety and command rules review prior to match,& (3) safety officer accompanyment to safe area when live or dummy round remains in chamber. These "edicts" were a direct result of recent very near tradjedies at sanctioned matches. The IBS Board is not implimenting new redundant ,unnecessary rules just because they can. In fact most of these have been on the books for years. Maybe we should all (re)-read the rule book and re-fresh our knowledge of those rules. I welcome these stricter enforcement policies because they make SENSE. To NOT implement them defies logic.--------- Mr. 4 Mush , Sir! Thanks to the IBS CHRONIES I can shoot much more RELAXED (even at the bench) if I want, knowing activities around me are monitored and as safe as humanly possible.I notice you have a habit of parsing the words of others and taking statements out of context. Are you related to a MrD? -----Dr. Kilvorkian maybe? My fellow seasoned shooters, BEWARE there are those among us (at least 1) who want to pull your IBS card if caught wearing Depends. -------- One post & I get into a P contest because I don't want to witness someones loved one "leave the range". Mr.4m, maybe you could do the consoling, since you'll have extra time from getting home from the range earlier . BTW, I never did play well with others. Thank you & goodnight.
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Three incidents last season where someone could have been injured or killed by shooters making "bad choices". I can say, for sure, without question that the new rules are both necessary and welcomed by us who participate in IBS events. It has been pretty well proven to me that knowledge trumps common sense and "mistakes" with loaded firearms are certainly in the catagory of lessons learned.

Simplifying the line commands went a long way toward eliminating confusion and any thought process a shooter has to make. Good work to all who have been involved in the changes.
 
Mr Smith,

The rule which says no rifles on the line while target personnel are changing targets is a good rule. Not because of the obvious potential for accident, but because of the fact that it makes the shooter keep a constant mindset that is consistent with the safety teachings we've had all our lives. It's logical. It reinforces the things we have been taught, just as was shown by the young person mentioned above, who questioned their parent about it, and brought this procedure about to begin with. Ok, I can see that as a valid safety procedure, and the best thing is, this is no change from the current procedure of not setting up your equipment until the range officer has said it is ok to do so. NOTHING HAS CHANGED WITH THIS, other than the range officer is going to say, go ahead and set up, a minute later than he used to. Instead of Cease fire, next relay go ahead and set up. It's cease fire.... target people do their thing... Now go ahead and set up. Virtually No change.

If you take that drive home we referred to above, and drive through a construction zone, at least if you're in PA, you will drive past a sign that says "Headlights On For Safety". I would love to see a study that shows how turning on your headlights reduces the accident rate by .000001%. I bet another study might show how people have more accidents because of all the high beams they're looking at. It is a rule made for the sake of making rules. But, at least the state has greed as a motive. They want to fine you for not turning on your lights for the extra money. They could care or less about the highway crews, they just see another method for revenue. At the same time, they are wasting fuel for which they also get more money. So, it could be said that a bean counter came up with this and has a myriad of additional reasons for making us turn our "headlights on for.... Safety". It has nothing to do with safety. As I said, it's just a rule made for the sake of making rules.

What is the penalty for disobeying one of these range safety rules? You say there were incidents which when you heard them, "gave my spine a chill". (Just for the record, "there" I took something you wrote, out of context. If you notice, my last supposedly out of context quotes, were every single word of your post. It was all there).

Ok, back to the spine chill. May I ask, what action was taken with those shooters? Were they instructed to not come back? Suspended from competition for a period of time, anything? If not, why not? You get a chill from hearing this. How about the chill the person gets, who sits beside them next week, when nothing was done about what happened to last week? Accidental discharge at the range under a cease fire, or worse yet, walking back from the bench, and with NO PENALTY. No example set. No Precedent set. Do you ever wonder why there's so much crime in this country? Cause there's no penalty for it. No incentive for not doing it. Ever wonder why kids in schools go through 12 years of education and can't read? Cause there's no penalty for it, no incentives. The people running the show are powerless to do anything to the criminal or the student, so it continues. Well, we're not powerless to do something, yet we still don't.

If a person was to play devils advocate with the no-guns-on-the-line rule, they would be hard pressed to give any example of how that rule might make persons more complacent, and possibly create a safety situation to replace the one being addressed. I think in the case of the horn, it could rather easily be done. The entire reason any of the safety issues exist is because of the complacency of the shooters. Addressing situations on an individual basis and demonstrating that complacency won't be tolerated would go a lot farther toward fixing anything that is currently broke.

Just wait until you get someone who says, "I can't hear that tone of horn..." or something like that. "I didn't hear the horn blow...", "The can ran out of air so we didn't have a horn to blow...". Next thing we'll need a Dr Seuss boxing glove on the end of a scissors lattice to whack the shooters with when they don't pay attention. In ways, this procedure encourages shooters to not watch what they are doing.

Just for the record, I agree with Joel 100%.

Mr Smythe, Please answer my questions in the paragraph about what the penalties were for the shooters who discharged firearms under cease fire. Where do they shoot now?

Pete Wass, if you got to witness 3 incidents, what was done in those cases? Do you still shoot beside those shooters, Y/N?
 
4Mesh said:
Mr Smith,

The rule which says no rifles on the line while target personnel are changing targets is a good rule. Not because of the obvious potential for accident, but because of the fact that it makes the shooter keep a constant mindset that is consistent with the safety teachings we've had all our lives.

I am curious about something, 5 mins to remove your equipment, 5 mins for the target crew to change targets, 5 mins to put your equipment on the line, 7 mins to shoot also counting the 10 min 1st target comes "roughly" 5 1/2 hours to run a 3 relay yardage. an hour for lunch that puts everyone from 9:am start to a 9:00pm finish, or have I missed something?
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Disqualification was result

4Mesh

The individuals in the incidents Pete mentioned were disqualified.

In today's society we (some of the leadership) have found that only addressing the shooters with the problem is not enough. That is all I am going to say about that.

I believe in personal accountability and run my life that way---however, that is not the way the legal system and our society handles things and that is reality.

Jim Borden
 
Bill, your same math that shows here 113 total minutes per relay under the new format, also shows 88 total minutes per relay, even if targets changed with a magic wand instantly. Those same 3 relays of two yardages plus an hour lunch would be 9.8 hours the way it is now, and that's not exactly true in practice.

From what I've heard, the new rule does not say no rests on the bench, it says no rifles. If it does say no equipment, common sence can be applied and allow the target crew to begin when Rifles are removed, and allow shooters to set up rests first, then rifles in place when the target crew is clear. I would think that realistically, there will be a minimal time difference. Two yardages of 3 relays don't end at 7:15 now. Each range will have to do something to suit their situation.

/edit/

Jim.

Fair enough, at least something was done. I might think a suspension or similar action might carry more weight but it's not my decision to make. Where it is my decision to make, more than a DQ will result. While I am the one who brought that up and asked Pete, I don't think those situations were from anything to do with not hearing range commands. They were a much greater degree of carelessness, or someone may correct me if I'm wrong there.
 
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Bill Gammon said:
4Mesh said:
Mr Smith,

The rule which says no rifles on the line while target personnel are changing targets is a good rule. Not because of the obvious potential for accident, but because of the fact that it makes the shooter keep a constant mindset that is consistent with the safety teachings we've had all our lives.

I am curious about something, 5 mins to remove your equipment, 5 mins for the target crew to change targets, 5 mins to put your equipment on the line, 7 mins to shoot also counting the 10 min 1st target comes "roughly" 5 1/2 hours to run a 3 relay yardage. an hour for lunch that puts everyone from 9:am start to a 9:00pm finish, or have I missed something?
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Only that it may be too dark to shoot by 5:30PM through the fall and winter months.
I don't have a problem with rifles off the bench - it's a good practice especially when it's the club rule for non match shooting. I know some of our members don't understand why we don't enforce the usual club rules at BR matches. We probably will be forced to for future matches by the BOD.
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Two of them

4Mesh said:
Mr Smith,

The rule which says no rifles on the line while target personnel are changing targets is a good rule. Not because of the obvious potential for accident, but because of the fact that it makes the shooter keep a constant mindset that is consistent with the safety teachings we've had all our lives. It's logical. It reinforces the things we have been taught, just as was shown by the young person mentioned above, who questioned their parent about it, and brought this procedure about to begin with. Ok, I can see that as a valid safety procedure, and the best thing is, this is no change from the current procedure of not setting up your equipment until the range officer has said it is ok to do so. NOTHING HAS CHANGED WITH THIS, other than the range officer is going to say, go ahead and set up, a minute later than he used to. Instead of Cease fire, next relay go ahead and set up. It's cease fire.... target people do their thing... Now go ahead and set up. Virtually No change.

If you take that drive home we referred to above, and drive through a construction zone, at least if you're in PA, you will drive past a sign that says "Headlights On For Safety". I would love to see a study that shows how turning on your headlights reduces the accident rate by .000001%. I bet another study might show how people have more accidents because of all the high beams they're looking at. It is a rule made for the sake of making rules. But, at least the state has greed as a motive. They want to fine you for not turning on your lights for the extra money. They could care or less about the highway crews, they just see another method for revenue. At the same time, they are wasting fuel for which they also get more money. So, it could be said that a bean counter came up with this and has a myriad of additional reasons for making us turn our "headlights on for.... Safety". It has nothing to do with safety. As I said, it's just a rule made for the sake of making rules.

What is the penalty for disobeying one of these range safety rules? You say there were incidents which when you heard them, "gave my spine a chill". (Just for the record, "there" I took something you wrote, out of context. If you notice, my last supposedly out of context quotes, were every single word of your post. It was all there).

Ok, back to the spine chill. May I ask, what action was taken with those shooters? Were they instructed to not come back? Suspended from competition for a period of time, anything? If not, why not? You get a chill from hearing this. How about the chill the person gets, who sits beside them next week, when nothing was done about what happened to last week? Accidental discharge at the range under a cease fire, or worse yet, walking back from the bench, and with NO PENALTY. No example set. No Precedent set. Do you ever wonder why there's so much crime in this country? Cause there's no penalty for it. No incentive for not doing it. Ever wonder why kids in schools go through 12 years of education and can't read? Cause there's no penalty for it, no incentives. The people running the show are powerless to do anything to the criminal or the student, so it continues. Well, we're not powerless to do something, yet we still don't.

If a person was to play devils advocate with the no-guns-on-the-line rule, they would be hard pressed to give any example of how that rule might make persons more complacent, and possibly create a safety situation to replace the one being addressed. I think in the case of the horn, it could rather easily be done. The entire reason any of the safety issues exist is because of the complacency of the shooters. Addressing situations on an individual basis and demonstrating that complacency won't be tolerated would go a lot farther toward fixing anything that is currently broke.

Just wait until you get someone who says, "I can't hear that tone of horn..." or something like that. "I didn't hear the horn blow...", "The can ran out of air so we didn't have a horn to blow...". Next thing we'll need a Dr Seuss boxing glove on the end of a scissors lattice to whack the shooters with when they don't pay attention. In ways, this procedure encourages shooters to not watch what they are doing.

Just for the record, I agree with Joel 100%.

Mr Smythe, Please answer my questions in the paragraph about what the penalties were for the shooters who discharged firearms under cease fire. Where do they shoot now?

Pete Wass, if you got to witness 3 incidents, what was done in those cases? Do you still shoot beside those shooters, Y/N?
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are no longer shooting. Both of them were Newbies and were not properly supervised or coached. The other was a boondoggle in which both people involved made bad choices in a situation which should never have occured.

I was first freaked out about bolts in guns when people went down range a few years ago @ a Nationals. Back then, folks thought it was safe to simply have bolts uncocked. I didn't think it very safe and discussed the issue with the Management. Subsequently the rules began to change and finally we are at a place now where simplicity prevails . There aren't several kinds of cease fires now to have to contemplate and be guilty of doing the wrong thing.

I am all for one person running the fireing line and THE ONE who calls cease fires. The way things are now, there is little room for problems and ONE PERSON is in charge. Simplicity is best in situations like this.

To critisize any attempt to make safety foremost and to be insulted about benificial changes is foolish and childish. Just humor those among us who aren't able to walk and chew gum and be glad we are there to fill up the field so that our orginizations prosper. Most of all, make things safe and simple for us.
 
I am all for safety, 100%, I have witnessed 2 serious accidents in my lifetime and I hope never to see a third. When ever I have trained someone the one thing that I have hopefully instilled in them that they thought God was up in heaven, not so, He is the RANGE OFFICER, right or wrong. A incident that happened at Camillus a few years ago the person, who I was travelling with, shot before the Commence Fire was given. He was disqualified of course, and when I asked him why? his answer was that he could not hear the RO. My answer was that if you have a problem, such as that you should have waited until the line started shooting, take a look, and then go. Another point that I mentioned was if you can't hear him say go, you cain't hear him say stop. Needless to say I don't travel with him. Jim makes the best point and that is with the legal end of the problem, we all know what can happen in a court of law. Getting back to time, I sat down with my computer and work out a 3 relay match with 1 hour for lunch, allowing 3 mins to remove equipment, 5 mins target crew, 3 mins to put your stuff up. It came to 9.9333 hrs. That included a 10 min first match in the morning and a 10 min match in the afternoon. It was also mentioned that you have people putting down at the same time people are putting up so some of the 3 mins would be intergrated. Where do you put the rifle? it takes most people 2 hands to remove and put up equipment. Could we have rifle racks behind the line? I think that would be a heck of a saftey feature. Am I aganist changes for safety? "NO" so lets work on this problem.
 
When someone does...

something really bad, why don't you simply ban them from IBS matches for life?

We're pretty far removed but I've heard rumors about a couple of last year's incidents in the IBS. If what I've heard is true a couple of those people would never set foot on our range again... ever.

The organization could handle having a couple fewer members and survive. You can't handle it and survive if some idiot shoots someone else.

I've shot in organized competition since I got out of college. That was in 1961. I recall with great fondness that for many, many of those years rifle shooting competition was a gentleman's sport. Is there something in the water out there?
 
4Mesh, which is one of the things I love about this site I have no idea who I am talking to for some can't handle using there name. Let me say this. It was my 9 year old son that asked the question why it was okay for him to point a gun into the back of the target crew when he has been taught not to, what do you say to that to make it OKKKKKKK.... What do you say to the widow or other keen of a IBS member or volunteer who is hanging targets when they have been shot and killed by someone at a friendly shoot............ What do you say..........I for one am all for the new safety rules and think it is the number one thing that should be on everyones mind when shooting a shoot, lets face it all the things that are being said sure would be hard for someone to understand if they were trying to explain why someone got shoot and killed....................Think about that and then tell me just how you can tell IBS they are wrong for implimenting these Rulessssssssssssss................Thanks JIM BORDEN>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Leon Garfield..........................Target crew, scorer, competitior.............
 
Two yardages and time

Bill, at the two IBS ranges where I shoot (Holmen, Wi. and Webster City, Ia.) we always shoot a 100-200 Grand Agg format on each day with two relays.

We don't do 10 minute relays, we do 7 minute. Per IBS rules*, the 10 minute relays are offered on match day but if nobody wants it the range can do 7 minute relays. In all my years of shooting at these ranges, nobody has ever asked for 10 minute relays. I mean....if I'm lost after 7 minutes....3 more minutes isn't going to save me. :eek:;):D

We take lunch as the target crews are moving the targets from 100 to 200 and that seems to be plenty of time for everyone to have a bite to eat and a few minutes to socialize. The target crews at both ranges are efficient and experienced, so that helps a lot. In place of a seperate 'Warm Up' match at 200, the first match at 200 is often a 10 minute 'shoot through' where the extra 3 minutes is given for shooters to rezero at 200 and work on the sighter a bit. Recently we've done a formal 'Warm Up' at 200 and have found that it really doesn't take much longer to do that than the 10 minute 'shoot through' format when all is said and done. Starting at 8:00 on Sunday also helps in getting things done and people on their way home at a decent hour.

Doing things this way, we start at 9:00 on Saturday are are usually finished up with awards, etc. by 5:30. When we start at 8:00 on Sunday, we can be done shooting at 4:30 and after an hour of awards, erc. I'm usually on my way by 5:30 or 6:00 and home at 10:00 (from Webster City) or 11:00 (from Holmen).

I really liked the additional safety rules the IBS instituted last season. It takes zero time after the relay is over to hold the bolts up for the R.O. to verify that all bolts are out and the range is clear. Once this is done, I really don't see the need for the rifles to be removed from the benches before the target crew goes downrange...since the R.O. has just verified that all the rifles are in a 'bolts out' state.

I've been on the 'smelly end of the stick' once before...after changing targets at 100 yds. at my local range (a members only private range). Another BR shooter and I came back to the firing line to discover that the moron 3 benches over had a live round in the chamber and the bolt closed. :eek: We'd instructed him to remove the magazine and clear the chamber and keep the bolt on the 'open' position before anyone went down to the targets. But apparently this dolt didn't like anyone instructing him on safety..so while we were down there, 'Mr. Tactical' reinserted the magazine full of 308's and ran the carrier foward and chambered a round.

The other BR shooter and I were both Officers at our range. 'Mr. Tactical's membership ceased on the spot.

There's nothing that gives me more concern than when I'm at our private range and someone has some sort of semi-auto thing out there. Nothing wrong with them as rifles....but you better be double-damn sure of their "Yeah, it's empty" status before you ever head downrange. You're a lot more safe at a BR match with 100 shooters than at a public range with one idiot.

Like Sgt. Esterhaus used to say on 'Hill Street Blues': "Let's be careful out there."

*New IBS rules allow clubs to run 7 minute matches with one months notice prior to the date of the event.
 
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Yes, there is something in the "water" that is destroying peoples two primary attributes nowadays. Common sense and the respect for life. Both are learned traits from ones youth, instilled by good parenting and good home environments. Need I say more ?
 
Lou, the 'no guns on benches' rule isn't an IBS rule. It's a rule that some ranges follow on an individual basis. -Al
 
You can philosiphy and rant about the morals of today's society all you want---If you haven't noticed ALL things change with time. What the IBS has done is commendable--they have addressed serious loopholes in safety practices, at the mere cost of a few extra minutes (yea let's argue this one), and apparently the humility of a few. To some the extra time is not worth ensuring our safety and demonstrating to our kids, or the public for that matter, that safe gun handling rules has NO exceptions. To you MACHO types out there--- if your reaction is -"there treating me like a child"-----WELL !!--you must be one. I see I will have to become more selective about where I plan to shoot some of you guys scare the he!! out of me.
 
Jim Borden said:
I believe in personal accountability and run my life that way---however, that is not the way the legal system and our society handles things and that is reality.

Jim Borden
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After close to 10 years as an LEO, your one of very few "MEN" that I've heard say this. Your quote about personal accountability, the legal syatem and society are spot on. My hats off to you sir.

William
 
Hopefuly becoming a lifelong BR competitor! Shot against Al Weaver's 9 year old grandson ,Ty,at Sulphus Springs several years ago--- well he kicked my butt.
 
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Let's put this all into perspective in relation to where the risks are associated. Rifles on rests -with bolts out- pose zero risk to those downrange. The most egregious incidents in the last two years were when a rifle was off the line with a closed bolt and a loaded round in the chamber. Thank God a tragedy did not occur that day. In response to that chilling incident, the IBS Executive Committee, in the interests of safety, instituted some new rules. Ironically, the most important of which, "bolts out at all times", was already in the rule book. To emphasize "bolts out" the shooters were asked to show their bolts at the conclusion of the relay. My experience since then has been it takes but a few seconds and no loaded rifles leave the firing line. Brilliant, but simple and quick. It is a rule that NBRSA should consider adopting as well.

The second part of the enforcement of the "bolts out" rule related to checking seating depth with a stripped bolt in the loading area. This one was more complicated from my perspective. Heck, I use (usually) a stripped bolt with a dummy round (always), doesn't everyone? Not really. To my knowledge, there has been at least one instance of a discharge off the line doing that sort of check. The solution was to ask ranges to provide some sort of safe area with backstop, such as off to the side of the firing line or and adjacent pistol range to do such checking. A shooter just has to ask one of the referees or other range-designated safety officer. That is the current rule and I will abide by it. Am I totally happy with this one? Probably not, but I don't have a real good solution.

Rail guns, you ask? Most shooters have them on some sort of cart which could to taken to the safe area. At Raton in 2006, I did not have a cart and carried the "!!+#@%*(^$@# thing" up and down the line. Guess I could have carried it to a safe area to check seating depth.

Some of us did talk about requiring the shooter to display to a nearby shooter the stripped bolt and dummy round before chambering the brass. Might work, might not. I would like to hear some other productive suggestions or recommendations on how to better deal with this so that it is both convenient -and safe.

Invariably, you will get the usual questions "What if there is no one around?" "When does the match actually start?" "Do I need to abide by this on Thursday morning before a weekend match" My answers would be follow the rules even if no one is looking (might apply to life too). Unless a range has their own rule, my take is the IBS rules apply to all those arriving at the range to take part in that tournament.

As far as prohibiting rifles on the benches during target change, I do NOT want to see ranges adopt that practice. Again, the bolts must be out at all times except between "commence fire" and "cease fire". My son has started working on the target crews and I have absolutely no problems with the rifle on the rests. As mentioned earlier some ranges might impose this, but it is NOT an IBS rule. Again, in terms of exposure, a safe rifle on the rests is not where our safety problems lie.

That was supposed to be my 2 cents, but you got a quarter...:D

Jeff Stover
IBS Group Committee Chairman
(the above comments are mine alone, they may, or may not, be shared by the others on the committee)
 
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Mr Garfield,

If you want to disagree with my posts, that's fine. But please, take the time to READ the post first, THEN disagree with it. It is rather obvious to everyone here that you NEVER READ my posts. I am guessing that you are ranting at me just for the sake of ranting.

Let me quote MY OWN post so YOU CAN READ IT.
4Mesh said:
The rule which says no rifles on the line while target personnel are changing targets is a good rule. Not because of the obvious potential for accident, but because of the fact that it makes the shooter keep a constant mindset that is consistent with the safety teachings we've had all our lives. It's logical. It reinforces the things we have been taught, just as was shown by the young person mentioned above, who questioned their parent about it, and brought this procedure about to begin with. Ok, I can see that as a valid safety procedure, and the best thing is, this is no change from the current procedure of not setting up your equipment until the range officer has said it is ok to do so. NOTHING HAS CHANGED WITH THIS, other than the range officer is going to say, go ahead and set up, a minute later than he used to. Instead of Cease fire, next relay go ahead and set up. It's cease fire.... target people do their thing... Now go ahead and set up. Virtually No change.
Click to expand...

Now, would you mind telling me what it is you are asking and why you're gripe'n at me about the no guns on the line policy?

I think part of my point in the early posts was to do something about the people who don't seem to read and understand the rule book. It would appear you are making my point.
 
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