IBS Annual Meeting Summary

Tod,
right and wrong is a question of perception. Right for who? For a few shooters? For an indivitual club? For the IBS? Which is it? Cause, the 3 are mutually exclusive in their ideal situations.
 
Tod you think your right, 4Mesh thinks he's right. The IBS committee thinks there right. Why no vote! thats the American way isn't it. Then would everyone be happy. HELL NO! So if you want to shoot, and the drive and the money doesn't matter, go for it. If it was Up to me I'd want at least a five day shoot with two tagets a day in both classes. They do it at KELBY's don't they and they have a great turn out. Just my thoughts on the mess. PS.You're are not going to please everyone.

Joe Salt
 
That's who rem300ack is. Hi Shannon hope everything is well with you and your dad, I'm not pointing fingers just would like to know when the IBS is going to 10 shots in the light gun class? We're all at 17 pounds thanks to yours truly. Now I think the IBS should reciprocate with the 10 shots. And I do agree with you that Hawk Ridge was a great place for the Nationals always had fun with you guys.

Joe Salt

Joe

The 10 shots probably will not happen until 50 PA IBS members sign an agenda item (25 needed) and get to the LR committee within the timeframe. Then a minimum of 25 PA IBS members show up at the winter meeting, each with a written proxy in their hand. That should get it approved (over a lot of hollaring) for a one year trial as a temporary rule. Next year it is up to the entire membership to vote on it.

1. Written agenda item written as "present wording", "changed wording", and "justification" with 25 IBS member signatures.

2. Sent to LR committee by cutoff date. Not sure what it is now. Used to be 30 June and I think they may have just changed that.

3. Voted on by all members "present" at winter meeting to be temp rule for one year. Will take a minimum of 40-50 total votes to get it passed IMO.

4. One year trial and then voted on by all members.

You should have the number members and you certainly have the best location to make it happen.
 
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To all that are proposing changing the Nationals and LR committee makeup.

Get an IBS rulebook and copy of the IBS bylaws from the IBS website and read them first, because you have no clue what you are talking about so far in some cases. It has taken several years of mistakes and pushing to learn the system and get some agenda items thru.

1. Tournament Procedures section item 4: addresses the national tournaments and how you can qualify, factors and where it should be located. There is nothing about a rotation and equal chance for all.

2. The make up of the LR committee is by the bylaws, Article XV.

IF you want to change any of those, then get a written agenda item, minimum of 25 signatures of IBS members, to the LR committee by the cutoff, who will give their recommendation to the Eboard and then most importantly, you had better rent 2-3 15 pax vans and show up at the Winter meeting (in PA of course) with written proxies for each person from another IBS member. Otherwise it probably will not pass! Then trial for one year before vote by all membership.

The attendees at the Winter meeting is THE MOST IMPORTANT part, so Colorado, plan on a week long trip or have a lot of friends closer.

Before you jump on me, not my system. Do not like it, but that is the way it is written and what I described is the ONLY way to change it. Agree that only people who show at the Winter meeting actually decide on the rules in reality. Again, not right but that is the way it is and only one way to change it.
 
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Bountyhunter, I looked at the rule book and it reads as follows:

VII. 1000 YARD

3) National Events and Special Shoots
a) A National Championship is held annually at a designated IBS 1000-yard range. The site is rotated among IBS 1000-yard benchrest clubs.

Page 36 of the rule book, I copyied and pasted this. Go to the book and check it out. Why does everybody want to change the rules to suit thier best interest? If you knew me you would know that I want to win fair and square, I want a level playing field for all. The nice thing about the IBS is the members can make and vote on rules, however that can be abused if we all have to show up at a hour or two meeting that nobody goes to unless they want to change a rule. I am not implying you would ever do this. Just thought you might want to read that section of rule book. I'm looking forward to shooting nationals this year, no matter where it is. Hope to see you there. Maybe the meeting should be at nationals, so we all can have a voice and a vote. Would you be opposed to that?
Gordy Mitchell
 
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Gordy

Not opposed to anything. Also, do not agree the way the rules and bylaws are in many cases and they way we get them by votes of 25-30 people at the Winter meeting.

I am just explaining what it is going to take to change it.

You must understand the way to do it.

FYI, I started an agenda item several years ago to have the meeting at the Nationals.
 
BountyHunter: Does that mean the card I sent in with my vote that I signed doesen't count. Yes I think more people would be in favour of the meeting at the Nationals, that way a lot of us don't have to worry about the Weather.

Joe Salt
 
Bountyhunter,

When you put in for annual meeting at nationals as a agenda item. Did you ask for only the long range part of the meeting be moved to 1000 yard nationals? Do the short range guys or other shooting disciplines vote on our agenda items? Or do they simply not vote on long range items?

Why does meeting have to be in PA every year? Maybe we should try to get meeting at nationals again? I cant speak for all midwest shooters, but I bet there would not be anybody opposed. Since it was your idea put it together again and mail me your petition I will sign and most of our shooters probibly will sign.

Gordy Mitchell
 
BountyHunter: Does that mean the card I sent in with my vote that I signed doesen't count. Yes I think more people would be in favour of the meeting at the Nationals, that way a lot of us don't have to worry about the Weather.

Joe Salt

Joe

No it counts, but only after being approved at the winter meeting. The agenda item must get past the attendees (25-30 LR members) at the winter meeting FIRST before the general membership is allowed to vote next year after the trial period.

If it is voted down at the Winter meeting by the few attendees; the general membership never gets to vote.

You must understand it is a two part process and if the first part (ie Winter Meeting) it never proceeds to the second part (ie general membership vote>

I have seen a 15 pax van and proxies rule the vote at the winter meeting. So 25-30 members with proxies can get anything past at the winter meeting normally. hint hint again.
 
Bountyhunter,

When you put in for annual meeting at nationals as a agenda item. Did you ask for only the long range part of the meeting be moved to 1000 yard nationals? Do the short range guys or other shooting disciplines vote on our agenda items? Or do they simply not vote on long range items?

Why does meeting have to be in PA every year? Maybe we should try to get meeting at nationals again? I cant speak for all midwest shooters, but I bet there would not be anybody opposed. Since it was your idea put it together again and mail me your petition I will sign and most of our shooters probibly will sign.

Gordy Mitchell

The agenda item I tried was for just the LR nationals to host our meeting for our LR agenda items. At that time I got a lot of very heated pushback from certain Eboard members (no longer on the board) and pulled it.

Plus it is "gentlemans rule" at the winter meeting is that only score shooters vote on score agenda items, same thing for group and LR shooters, we only voted on OUR agenda items unless we shot other disciplines too, as some do. Must shoot at least one match in that discipline that year has been the general rule. That is not part of the bylaws, just a verbal agreement.

NOT my call on the location of the Winter meeting for sure. I am not a member of the Eboard. According to the By-Laws it can be "anywhere determined by the President or EBoard."

As for an agenda item, suggest you talk to some members of the LR committee, get their feedback and timeline to have the agenda item to them. Then make up an agenda item for the LR shooters to vote on their agenda items at the Nationals instead of the Winter meeting. They can explain whether a change to the rules or bylaws will be needed and can help with wording. Read the bylaws, section IV MEETINGS. However, sounds like to me, it would be a change to the By-Laws needed.

Remember what I said, you can get 500 signatures on the agenda item, but if the 25-40 LR members at the winter meeting vote no, then it never gets to a trial period and general member vote next year. That is why if you want to push an agenda item, you and others MUST attend the winter meeting with proxies. Otherwise, you are wasting your time.

Not my system, but that is the way it is and change is slow and painful at times.

There has been historically a tremendous pushback on changing anything like that by previous regimes and an "Us vs Them" perception. We are in 2012: do not have member numbers on our member cards that would allow voting online (next year copy the silly vote card sent out and have matching envelopes made and send in 2500 votes and see what happens, there is no ID # and handwriting is normally illegible anyway, so no way to tell a legitimate vote from one of the 2500 you sent in), previously it was mandated that the announcement could ONLY be in PS magazine, even though the ByLaws do not require that. The announcement could only be published online at the IBS website like all other news; members used to only have 5 months (two months of active shooting normally) for an agenda item, while it had to be in the LR committee and Eboards hands 6 months before with winter meeting, and the list goes on.

I will say, the current board from what I am hearing is exploring options, so kudos for them!
 
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The agenda item I tried was for just the LR nationals to host our meeting for our agenda items. It never got the 25 signatures.

Plus it is "gentlemans rule" at the winter meeting is that only score shooters vote on score agenda items, same thing for group and LR shooters, we only voted on OUR agenda items unless we shot other disciplines too, as some do. Must shoot at least one match in that discipline that year has been the general rule. That is not part of the bylaws, just a verbal agreement.

NOT my call on the location of the Winter meeting for sure. I am not a member of the Eboard. According to the By-Laws it can be "anywhere determined by the President or EBoard".

As for an agenda item, suggest you talk to some members of the LR committee, get their feedback and timeline to have the agenda item to them. Then make up an agenda item for the LR shooters to vote on their agenda items at the Nationals instead of the Winter meeting. They can explain whether a change to the rules or bylaws. Read the bylaws, section IV MEETINGS. However, sounds like to me, it would be a change to the By-Laws needed.

Remember what I said, you can get 500 signatures on the agenda item, but if the 25-40 LR members at the winter meeting vote no, then it never gets to a trial period and general member vote next year. That is why if you want to push an agend item, you and others MUST attend the winter meeting with proxies. Otherwise, you are wasting your time.

Not my system, but that is the way it is!!

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong...but wasn't rule making procedures a big difference between IBS and NBRSA when a merger was last seriously considered, way back when?--Mike
 
Clarifying a few issues.....

Gentlemen,

There have been a lot of issues discussed within this thread; I'll respond to the few which concern me, our range, and shooters that I've discussed this with. I had no intention of writing this much, but have tried to fully "vet" the issues for perspective.

Nationals-
Frankly, I can't speak to the Colorado "situation". I had planned to drive 13ish hours west for the upcoming nationals, rather than the 13ish hours east that I drove this last year, to shoot at White Horse (where I had a great time and enjoyed a very well ran match, even if I couldn't keep up with Tod.... :) ). As shown in the attached file, I did submit a "bid" asking to be considered for upcoming 600 & 1000 yard national tournaments (start at the bottom and read up). I don't believe that this was an intentional nor malicious oversight, and most likely was an honest mistake. My purpose in posting this is not to cry "foul", but to correct the record as I know it.

Points / the new SOY rule change-
Of much greater concern to me, is the issue and rule change concerning SOY points. During last year's season, I was contacted by a Long Range Committee member wanting to discuss SOY points. He had been receiving complaints from [Eastern (not my emphasis)] shooters that "shooters earned too many points for relay wins" at our range and other "Western" ranges, due to the number of benches (15) that we have. I was also informed of a "Gentlemen's agreement", reportedly between ranges, that relays would be limited to 10 shooters (this was a historical agreement, which is not part of the rules). Initially, I was a bit surprised by the nature of such a claim and then proceeded in responding, discussing the merits of the current point system and my primary focus as range owner/match director; the safe and efficient operation of the match. Having 15 benches, the number of shooters within a relay is strictly based on the number of shooters that attend the match.

For us to fully discuss/understand this issue, it is important to note that there is a new and old system, relating to SOY points. Prior to a recent conversation, I was only aware of the new system.

OLD (ARBITRARY, match based): Apparently, the old system had arbitrarily, pre-determined [static] values, in awarding the relay winners (.50 point), and shoot-off winners (1 point), regardless of the number of shooters within the relay, or total shooters participating in the match.

NEW (PROPORTIONAL, shooter based): The new system rewards an individual based on the number of competitors that have been overcame; (.05 point) for each shooter within the relay, and (.03 point) for each shooter within the match in shoot-offs.

Both systems have their pros and cons, and I have no preference concerning which is used. However, MIXING the two systems is unfair to the participants, and has placed several match directors (any range having more than 12 benches) in a difficult, "non-win" type situation. To better illustrate, please review last year's match results at our range (or you can take my word at the numbers I've provided):

Match 1: 30 Total shooters, Relay 1 = 15, Relay 2 = 15 (-1 shooter due to a non-IBS shooter (NIBS))
Match 3: 26 Total, R1 = 13, R2 = 13 (-1 shooter for NIBS)
Match 5: 22 Total, R1 = 11(-1 shooter for NIBS), R2 = 11
Match 7: 33 Total, R1 = 11, R2 = 11, R3 = 11
Match 9: 33 Total, R1 = 11, R2 = 11, R3 = 11
Match 11: 28 Total, R1 = 14, R2 = 14

As shown, the number of shooters within a relay (and consequently, the number of relays), is directly relative to the number of shooters that show up. Relays are always divided as evenly as possible, which is also based on the number of shooters. If you stare at the numbers above long enough, you will begin to notice "magic"........ :) Well not really magic, but 30 (being a multiple of 15) is a relatively special number. Simply put, if there are 30 shooters or less (down to 16), we shoot two relays. With 31 shooters or more (up to 45), we shoot three relays. If we have 15 or less, we will shoot one relay. The number of shooters within a relay has never been considered relative to the amount of points that would be awarded to a relay winner.

Here's the rub. The LR committee passed a rule at the winter meeting keeping the .05 pts/shooter, with a cap at .60 points per relay. How would this have affected the previous season? As shown in the above examples, for a majority of the matches, shooters (under the newly passed rule) would not be receiving due credit for the actual number of shooters that were bested in a season. The question really should be asked of the 1000 yard community, "What determines the BEST shooter for the year?"

  • · Is the best shooter the one that has won the most relays/matches? (Arbitrary, static points - Match Based)
  • · Is the best shooter the one that has beaten the most individuals shooting simultaneously? (Proportional, dynamic points - Shooter Based)

It should be noted that as match director, I have three options:


  1. Split one actual relay into two artificial relays (i.e. bench 1-7 & bench 8-15;
  2. Limit the number of shooters per relay to 12 or less;
  3. Continue utilizing the potential of the range as built, in which relay size would depend on the number of attendees, up to 15.

Option 1 isn't necessarily fair, as the "second" best group is invariably in the same relay with the best group; advancing someone that shouldn't be, as they were outshot in identical conditions. Option 2 would unnecessarily increase the cost and duration of the match; which would result in some incomplete matches, depending on the progress that day. Option 3 is efficient, but would unintentionally penalize relay winners any time there was 13-15, or 25-30, or 36-45 shooters. Unfortunately, this is an issue that never needed to occur, and is lamented/viewed as unfair by the members that I've discussed it with. I would respectfully ask and urge the Long Range Committee to (immediately please) rectify the situation that has been created by the passage of this rule to pacify a few, without consideration for the fairness of the majority.

Meeting / Representation:
The winter meeting/rule passage process seems to have been put in place as a safeguard against "fringe" or unpopular (with a few) opinions, in that the meeting location is inaccessible(for practical purposes) to the majority, and if the committee is not in favor of a proposal, it will never be voted on by the general membership. This appears to "backfire" as often as it works, in that regardless of the opinion, transporting a bus load of individuals to the meeting can get nearly anything passed (for a year). The technology is now widely available (teleconference, video conferencing, internet voting, etc.) to allow participation, without the encumbrance of a continental trip. I have enough faith in the membership to believe that if the majority (or 2/3rds even) were more involved in the decision, the issues discussed within this thread wouldn't exist.

Robert Ross
robert@midwestbenchrest.com
 

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It should be noted that as match director, I have three options:


  1. Split one actual relay into two artificial relays (i.e. bench 1-7 & bench 8-15;
  2. Limit the number of shooters per relay to 12 or less;
  3. Continue utilizing the potential of the range as built, in which relay size would depend on the number of attendees, up to 15.

Option 1 isn't necessarily fair, as the "second" best group is invariably in the same relay with the best group; advancing someone that shouldn't be, as they were outshot in identical conditions.

I would note that option 1 has been used by more than one occasion, by multiple clubs. I believe it was the normal course at the old Iowa club. It was certainly used at the Nationals held there. It was also used by Virgina at the Nationals when they were held at Quantico. Probably used for "regular" matches as well.

The notion that it is unfair because the conditions are the same seems rather artificial. If we could find a way to always have the conditions the same across all relays, we would still use the present system. It is a variation on the Olympic model for track, where the initial field is reduced by qualifying events.

I would (in fact, have) lobbied for the notion that more than one person per relay be advanced to the "finals"; that relays should be viewed as elimination matches. Arguments with some merit against this have been two: (1) there isn't enough time, and (2) we would have to rewrite the computer programs. But with the system used for Olympic track, no one has argued it is stupid. If you view "artificial" splitting of relays this way, there should be no objections.

* * *

And just by-the-way -- in point of fact, conditions are usually not the same from one end of the line to the other, and the longer the firing line, the worse this becomes. This from someone who has fired the Nationals at both Quantico and Pella. One end or the other was always a little better. Which end was best could change, but there was usually a difference.
 
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Charles

After the points change, at Quantico, we used 12 benches for normal matches and tried to do even relays of 10 or as close to it to make it even number shooters each relay. 46 shooters = 4 relays of 9 and 1 of 10 etc.

At the Nationals, we used 20 benches and only one relay per, not split into two relays of 10 each. Jeff ran the computer and maybe I am wrong.

At regular matches we had one combined relay for shoot offs with group on one end and score on the other.

You are correct, that different ends of the ranges certainly could and did have different conditions. Plus the second best group of the day does not even end up in the shootoff in some cases.

Maybe the answer to the whole thing is some variation of agg/multipe targets similar to 600, maybe points down to 10 places etc? Who knows what will work for ALL of the clubs and afford no advantage or disadvantage to one or more clubs. Something to consider with all the clubs issues and restrictions taken into consideration and looked at in detail before an agenda item is placed in works.
 
BH,

The Nationals I was thinking about were the 2001 Nats. I *think* I remember getting a bunch of relay wins buttons. I'd thought that the relays were split -- but maybe not. They surely were at Pella -- that was in 2005, & my memory does reach back that far.

* * *
I don't think 3 target aggs will do it for 1K. I was at the Pennsylvania World Open one year when the best group on my HG relay was about 20 inches. You don't come back from that with an agg system, even with 3 or 4 targets making up the agg.

Again, the best way would be to move the top two or three in each relay along, as they do in the Olympics. When I suggested that, Phil Bowers complained he'd have to completely rewrite the computer program.

Others complained that if they were eliminated the first day, they would have driven all that way for only one target. Of course, they're living in a fantasy world, with 100+ shooters, if you have a big target, you can be sure that more than a few of the other 100 shooters won't be in your position; won't all make a mistake or have bad fortune. You're just not going to make it up -- all you'll make will be noise.

For the Nationals, there really is no solution that everyone will agree to as "best." But for IBS relay points & ranges with a lot of benches, shooting two relays at the same time seems like a no-brainer.
 
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Again, the best way would be to move the top two or three in each relay along, as they do in the Olympics. When I suggested that, Phil Bowers complained he'd have to completely rewrite the computer program.
Another issue of "Moving on" in an agg match is the amount of ammo everyone needs to bring. If you took relay winners and have them go on into some sort of shootoff system, each level of shootoff requires more ammo. Most likely, you'd need two layers of shootoff, and then somehow decide a winner.

All these ideas folks come up with sound all well and good till it comes time to score it. I know without asking that Herman remembers the old days of manual scoring and how it can get "messed up". That's when it's easy and it's just agg'n a few targets. Just imagine what sort of troubles can come up when scoring is made complicated. (this was not to imply that Herman's scoring was ever faulty, but he's aware of scoring that was!)

Keeping the scoring simple at a Nationals or the W/O is the only way to go. Believe me, I've heard boatloads of just downright stupid scoring systems proposed. All under the guise of "We want to make it more fair". Yea, well, all the 'solutions' I've heard either are not possible withing the time frame available, or, they take mother nature out of the equation, not putting the club and personnel in that position of fault. IN other words, if someone gets screwed now, they blame mother nature and go bark at the moon. If they get screwed in these new proposed systems, now they are pissed at the people running the match. (And for good reason!). Personally, I prefer the old way! Let em bark at the moon, sucks to be you. I've been eliminated from W/O's and Nationals in one sitting before, and never gave it a thought. Wasn't my day, maybe next time. What's for dinner? It sucks, yes, but, I have nobody to blame and we all B**** a little and move on.

I think those who've been to a World Open since the scoring system I wrote has been in place, (2004 or so iirc), can attest to how much nicer it makes the match move along. Unfortunately, changing the course of fire, rules, number of targets, agg method, etc, all is impossible within that system. It was intentionally written so as to not allow movement of people on benches, nor allow individuals to be added to the match without the computer choosing the relays they get. It factors all random relay assignments against previous relay/bench combos. Meaning, if you got an early relay day one morning, day two morning will not be early. Same for evenings. You likely WILL shoot with some same shooters, but who cares? You're shooting for Agg anyway.

Oh, and, it also makes it difficult to accommodate shooters who "share equipment". Which really just means they want to cheat and not have to shoot in the same relays, giving themselves more chance to win should they pull a bad relay and both be in it. Yes yes, I know, "gee Phil, we don't really want to cheat, we just can't afford two rests, or I need to spot for xyz, or, gawd only knows what". Yep, I've heard everything, still don't care! Borrow a rest, get another spotter, suck it up and take the relay you were given and go show us yer stuff...

Before that system was used, World Open Overall Champs had point totals of 7, 8, 11. Since, I do not think there has been a winner with a total less than 60, someone please correct me if I am wrong. Meaning, the relay system now actually screws everyone, instead of just a few and giving relays 1-12-1-12 to someone and they walk out the "champ". Yet, TONS of people seem to just hate that arrangement. I won't even go into the reasoning here... Suffice to say, a conversation I had with Bounty Hunter many years ago was "instrumental" in my changing of that old relay draw system.

I say all this to illustrate how, it doesn't matter what system you come up with. Doesn't matter how fair it is. Doesn't matter if it is equitable to everyone involved. Someone WILL B**** about it. They will also have all sorts of "Suggestions" of how to fix it to suit them. However, they will NOT take the job over, will not do the work to show you how their system will work. And, they will not lift a finger to help with the current system, whatever it might be. Anyone notice a pattern here?

Last but not least, here's my take on how scoring for a match should be done. JM Not So HO. If you make a scoring system that is so complicated that the shooters at the match cannot look at the wailing wall and see if they are winning or loosing, you WILL have shooters feeling they are being cheated. In addition, they very well may be getting cheated. It is also possible they are getting cheated and the match directors are not even aware of it. (Yes, I have seen proposed scoring systems that complicated). They are doomed to fail.
 
Phil, I'm really confused. What I proposed was (IIRC) the X number of shooters with the top groups and scores on each relay move on to the next level. At that next level, the whole thing starts again -- that is, if you moved on because of your score, in the next "match," you're again shooting for both group and score. All that first "match" determined was to qualify for participation in the next. Or put another way, keep you from being eliminated.

Etc, down to the final shootoff. At that point, if you want to allow a single competitor to win only for group, or score, OK. Though that too is arbitrary.

As you said, if you view each "stage" a certain way, the scoring gets involved -- it would exactly the same as computing the year-long 10 match agg. But if you view each "stage" as an elimination match, I think the scoring would be easy. Where am I going astray?

Edit:

Think of it like the Olympic track competiton. If you place in the top two or three, you move on. Your times in the successive heats are irrelevant; the heats only serve to qualy for the next stage.
 
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Charles -

Under your suggestion of a National's, lets say for an example there is 100 shooters.
1. Run 10 relays of 10.
2. Shoot 1 target (per class)
3. 80 shooters are eliminated, and 20 (10-group/10-score) move on to the next stage
4. .... not sure how your suggesting it would go from here

Is that the "gest" of what you suggest for IBS 1000yd National's ?
And how would you achieve a 2-gun Champion ?

I would never support a National's format that eliminated shooters after only one target.
If that is bases to your suggested format, I myself would never attend... but that's just me
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I like (and am in support of) the current National's format as they are being held.
I 100% disagree how CRC was stripped of the 2012.


Hope to attend, and see everyone at the National's
Donovan Moran
 
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Charles like you said you've been to Pa. and shot 20" in a relay. But you want the top shooters in each relay to advance, but how about the guy that shoots 4" in one relay but dosen't advance but the next relay everyone shoots in the teens and they advance. Am I right about this.

Joe Salt
 
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