IBS Annual Meeting Summary

[mwezell]

Mike,

Any match that is sanctioned by IBS is not a Club Match. It is an IBS match and all the rules in the book apply. Geography has no bearing on the rules, the rules are for everybody everywhere. It was a mistake permitting this entire Geographical arguement to be allowed to exist anyway, in my opinion. How can an International Orginization with a set of written rules allow any divergence? It has happened and it was a mistake for the Orginization to allow it to happen, in my opinion. Without a set of Standardized Rules an orginization is not much more than a "Free for All". It's a shame. We shouldn't be worrying about accomodating anyone. Either they are on board 100% or they go elsewhere, is my feeling.

There are a half a dozen Rim Fire Orgs as you may notice. None of them seem to be concerned about having a set of standardized rules to be run by, from what I've seen. People either shoot in one or several of them, some don't require membership to participate. They don't have Regional Rules that I have seen. Does NBRSA have Regional Rules?

Pete, I think it's a reasonable assumption that the majority of members at the meeting are from the NE, where as you have stated, is where most single yardage aggs are contested. From that, it's easy to conclude that geography, and or proximity may well have something to do with how some issues are viewed. The rule making process is a whole other issue. I think it best to deal with the original subject first, but to recognize that it may have some bearing. Again, this is just my point of view. --Mike

 

[mwezell]

Gentlemen. I discussed this issue with Jim Borden who has the most "institutional memory" of any of us (except for maybe Bob White). The reason for the single aggregate "exemption" from having backers was that two clubs-Sulphyr Springs and one other-physically could not have backers because of target frame to backstop configurations. The original intent was for ALL score matches to have backers, but then things morphed into what we have now.

jks

Thank you Jeff! I think it needs to be the same for both,either way, and it should be addressed.JMO--Mike

 

[Pete Wass]

Mike,
What I tried to say was the Mid-Atlantic and New England states. It seems that the new venues are those that have decided to run their match formats differently than has been the tradition. IBS did not begin in Texas or Georgia or Ohio. It began in the mid-Atlantic States. That is the home of it and it's traditions, not the newer venues. I believe the genisis of Benchrest is in New York State @ the Pine Tree Club waaaay back before our time even. So, the Mid-Atlantic or Northeast doesn't need to feel any sense of shame for getting it all started, I don't believe, nor should they have to feel ashamed of running their matches by the traditions of the area of orign of our Sport.

This is the first year in 12 I have missed the Annual Meeting. I flew there from Florida last winter to attend but chose not to this year. There is no excuse for anyone who wants to have any say in the direction of IBS not to attend the Annusl meeting. The people from New England have a 12 + hour drive there, it isn't just around the corner for them or the guys from Ohio or Michigan or Iowa. It's a committment.

Just my thinking.

 

[mwezell]

Pete, I didn't say anything at all to imply that the good people from the NE have anything to be ashamed of. So, I think we agree there...and you're right about the committment you and others continue to show. Thank you! I hope to keep this discussion as respectful and intelligent as I can on my end. Lets not let it spin into another tangent please.--Mike

 

[pbike]

Francis, and I and Matt Guthrie (Holton) traveled from Michigan... it was Matt's second trip if I remember correctly, and Francis and I have gone for the last five years. At the beginning of the meeting as usual role call was held to establish a Quarum. You have to do this to make sure enough of the Sanctioned clubs have representation. We had enough as usuall, but what I noticed was that very few members were present that didn't represent a club. David Halblom (Boone Valley Ikes Iowa) was present and traveled with Randy Perkowski (Chippewa OHio). There were probably 15 or 20 Long Range shooters (600 and 1000) yard. They don't vote on short range rules, we don't vote on Long range rules. Unless you shoot both. What I'm getting at is most clubs were represented and very few shoooters that don't represent clubs. The vote was a landslide... It's obvious that the clubs representitives wanted to vote against the rules as written or discussed. Period.

 

[mwezell]

Francis, and I and Matt Guthrie (Holton) traveled from Michigan... it was Matt's second trip if I remember correctly, and Francis and I have gone for the last five years. At the beginning of the meeting as usual role call was held to establish a Quarum. You have to do this to make sure enough of the Sanctioned clubs have representation. We had enough as usuall, but what I noticed was that very few members were present that didn't represent a club. David Halblom (Boone Valley Ikes Iowa) was present and traveled with Randy Perkowski (Chippewa OHio). There were probably 15 or 20 Long Range shooters (600 and 1000) yard. They don't vote on short range rules, we don't vote on Long range rules. Unless you shoot both. What I'm getting at is most clubs were represented and very few shoooters that don't represent clubs. The vote was a landslide... It's obvious that the clubs representitives wanted to vote against the rules as written or discussed. Period.

Paul, interestingly, of the states you mention being represented, a total of two single day grand agg score shoots are on last years IBS calendar. There were six different shooters at one and three at the other. My point with the number of shooters is, with only a few shooters and all on one relay, I'm sure you all had plenty of time to change the targets and keep up the backers. It's a much different task, as you know, when you have several shooters and multiple relays, to get it all in one day.--Mike

 

[pbike]

Paul, interestingly, of the states you mention being represented, a total of two single day grand agg score shoots are on on last years IBS calendar. There were six different shooters at one and three at the other.--Mike

Not sure which States or Matches you are referring to Mike... In 2008 Chippewa, OH (Perkowski) held the Score Nationals, In 2009 It was Boone Valley Ikes Iowa (Halblom), and In 2010 it was Holton, MI for the Score Nationals... Also present from Maine at this meeting were, as usual were Greg Palman, Orland Bunker, and new Shooter Chuck Bock. Cap City, Maine will be hosting this years IBS Score Nationals, and Holton will have the Group Nationals.

After the Annual meeting, is the match directors meeting. A perfect time to check calendar events and problems with the years plannings and bid on up-coming National matches. It's usually a good place to have match directors present, for instance they might notice and solve scheduling problems like an IBS Score National event that falls on the same weekend as an IBS Group National event starts. I guess it doesn't matter, nobody seriously shoots group and score, and it couldn't possibly effect attendence at either National Event. See you in Holton, that's where I'll be.

 

[Greyfox]

I couldn't tell you exactly how many matches I attended and shot at but I shot at somewhere around 20. I traveled to Kentucky early in the spring and shot at George's Money Match. I shot all of the matches that were schedules in Maine and most of those in Vermont and I drove on out and shot all 4 days at the Nationals in Michigan, How many did you attend and shoot in?

The predominance of all the matches in the Central East and North East are single yard matches.

I was the Match Director for this year's Maine State 100-200 so I dealt with the backers, which included replacing the plywood on them. I hired a Target Crew for that event. I have in the past and will continue to into the future become part of the target crew to tape backers. I don't feel like just because I paid to shoot in an event I am some sort of celebratary and can't lower myself to help where help is needed. I pre-load so I have the time.

We will hold a two yardage in one day event at Augusta, Maine this Summer. We will be using our backers. It's pretty simple, if backers weren't important and everyone could be trusted to be able to remember and do the right thing, backers wouldn't be neededd, either in Score or Group. How many sanctioned Group matches are held each year where the Honor System is used? Why would Score shooting be any different with regard to using backers?

I think you might want to choose someone else to pin down about this subject. I have lived this for a dozen or more years and helped with backers when I was needed and could help. It ain't no big deal and feels good to help make the match go smoother.

All the State matches in New England and the Nationals in Michigan had Stationary Backers. If you want to know more about my shooting activities all you need to do is go look in the IBS Score results for the past 12 years and you will see my name there.

Pete,
Thank you for the detailed reply. If I understood correctly, you said that the matches that used backers were the State matches and the Nationals. The others, being single yardage matches did not. The two day event you mentioned in August is also the Ntls if I read correctly. So, this makes my point exactly. You are advocating using backers for all matches, although the only matches you compete in that use backers are State & National.

The fact that you help with backers in the State match is admirable, but apparently you do not even use backers for the single yardage matches even though they are recommended. If I have missed something, feel free to correct me. BTW- you can check the matches I competed in by looking at the SSOY results and the Results page.

Rick Fox

 

[Greyfox]

Gentlemen. I discussed this issue with Jim Borden who has the most "institutional memory" of any of us (except for maybe Bob White). The reason for the single aggregate "exemption" from having backers was that two clubs-Sulphyr Springs and one other-physically could not have backers because of target frame to backstop configurations. The original intent was for ALL score matches to have backers, but then things morphed into what we have now.

jks

Jeff,
Thank you for that explanation. I think Dick related essentially the same thing. My curiosity is this. What ranges/matches that shoot only single yardages use backers regularly even though they are not required?

Rick Fox

 

[Greyfox]

Not sure which States or Matches you are referring to Mike... In 2008 Chippewa, OH (Perkowski) held the Score Nationals, In 2009 It was Boone Valley Ikes Iowa (Halblom), and In 2010 it was Holton, MI for the Score Nationals... Also present from Maine at this meeting were, as usual were Greg Palman, Orland Bunker, and new Shooter Chuck Bock. Cap City, Maine will be hosting this years IBS Score Nationals, and Holton will have the Group Nationals.

QUOTE]

Paul, what Mike is saying is that the matches you mention in these states are all either State or National events. No one that I am aware of is opposed to the use of stationary backers for these matches. I asked the other day what ranges are using stationary backers for single yardage events. I also asked for instances where the examination of stationary backers had been necessary to settle a crossfire dispute. With the exception of what Dick Grosbier related abour the Bud Pryor and the Nationals, not one single person has come forward with anything.

At this point, it appears that whether intentionally or not, the requirement to use sationary backers has been imposed on those of us who put forth the effort to hold two yardage events, while not requiring it of themselves since they only hold single yardage events.

If I read the results correctly, it seems that there were two single yardage matches help in your area in Michigan last year. It looks like the attendance was low. My question is, did you use stationary backers for these matches? Granted they are not required, but they are recommended.

Yes, it would have been nice to be able to attend, but job & $$ responsibilities prohibitted that. I would seem that membership in this national organization would be enough to have one's concerns addressed. Apparently, this is not the case.

Rick Fox

 

[Pete Wass]

Mr Gray Fox,

If you will look at the 2011 IBS Score Schedule you will see that on July 1 we will hold, as I said, a two yardage event in one day, as is done in several other places in the the US. We will use backers on that day. Why, because it's about getting pointss for the Grand Agg and the rules say that if a Grand Agg is to be contested, backers must be used. This is my point and I don't know, for the life of me, why all Y'all have gotten off on the single yardage tangent. It hasn't been the custom in the 12 yers I have participated and isn't done. If it is deamed to be done, it will be done at the range I facilitate shoots at.

I would suggest that you get your facts straight before you attack.

Pete

 

[Dick Grosbier]

At this point, it appears that whether intentionally or not, the requirement to use sationary backers has been imposed

Rick
It is not being imposed, it is being retained the same as it has been for over 30 Years. As to putting on grand aggregate shoots since I have been shooting here in Maryland we have put on 3 grand aggregate shoots a year for 15 or so years now, every single one used stationary backers. Our target frames are somewhat compressed as our firing line has had benches added in space that was not originally intended to hold an additional bench. This is a contributing factor to the fact we use the backer frequently, I am not exaggerating I have long ago lost count how many times we use our backers to track crossfires. Additionally I never claimed to use backers at a single day shoot and I have no idea how many clubs if any follow that practice since it is not required or reported.

Dick

 

[Greyfox]

Mr Gray Fox,

If you will look at the 2011 IBS Score Schedule you will see that on July 1 we will hold, as I said, a two yardage event in one day, as is done in several other places in the the US. We will use backers on that day. Why, because it's about getting pointss for the Grand Agg and the rules say that if a Grand Agg is to be contested, backers must be used. This is my point and I don't know, for the life of me, why all Y'all have gotten off on the single yardage tangent. It hasn't been the custom in the 12 yers I have participated and isn't done. If it is deamed to be done, it will be done at the range I facilitate shoots at.

I would suggest that you get your facts straight before you attack.


Pete

Mr Pete,
In the first place I haven't attacked you or anyone else. If I had you would be bleeding
What I am addressing is the inequity of requiring stationary backers for two yardage matches and not requiring them for single yardage matches. This makes absolutely no sense and it appears that few if any have noticed this in the past.

I have attempted to point out that the majority of GA matches take place in the south, but most of us in the south are unable to attend the annual meeting. The majority of the single yardage matches take place in the northern part of the country and most of those who attend the annual meeting shoot mainly single yardage matches, but vote to keep the backer rule in place for the GA matches. So even though the voters vote to keep the rule in place, they don't even use it themselves for single yardage matches. Yes, I know the rules don't require it for single yardages, but if it is needed for two yardages, it's needed for one. I don't really care why this was started or when or what is customary or what isn't. I do care about required to do a lot of unnecessary work, when the folks who vote to extend the rule don't.

Is this clear enough for you or do I need to go over it again using color glossy photos with circles, arrows and descriptions on the back?

BTW- Where was I factually wrong in my earlier post that was addressed to you?

Rick Fox

 

[mwezell]

Mr Pete,
In the first place I haven't attacked you or anyone else. If I had you would be bleeding
What I am addressing is the inequity of requiring stationary backers for two yardage matches and not requiring them for single yardage matches. This makes absolutely no sense and it appears that few if any have noticed this in the past.

I have attempted to point out that the majority of GA matches take place in the south, but most of us in the south are unable to attend the annual meeting. The majority of the single yardage matches take place in the northern part of the country and most of those who attend the annual meeting shoot mainly single yardage matches, but vote to keep the backer rule in place for the GA matches. So even though the voters vote to keep the rule in place, they don't even use it themselves for single yardage matches. Yes, I know the rules don't require it for single yardages, but if it is needed for two yardages, it's needed for one. I don't really care why this was started or when or what is customary or what isn't. I do care about required to do a lot of unnecessary work, when the folks who vote to extend the rule don't.

Is this clear enough for you or do I need to go over it again using color glossy photos with circles, arrows and descriptions on the back?

Rick Fox

Well put, Rick. That's what it's all about in a nutshell... I'd still like to see some color glossy photos with circles, arrows and descriptions on the back, though.--Mike

 

[Greyfox]

Rick
It is not being imposed, it is being retained the same as it has been for over 30 Years. As to putting on grand aggregate shoots since I have been shooting here in Maryland we have put on 3 grand aggregate shoots a year for 15 or so years now, every single one used stationary backers. Our target frames are somewhat compressed as our firing line has had benches added in space that was not originally intended to hold an additional bench. This is a contributing factor to the fact we use the backer frequently, I am not exaggerating I have long ago lost count how many times we use our backers to track crossfires. Additionally I never claimed to use backers at a single day shoot and I have no idea how many clubs if any follow that practice since it is not required or reported.

Dick

Dick,
Imposed or retained amounts to exactly the same results. In fact, you make my point. You use backers when it's required by the rules, but you don't when it's not required.
As Randy Robinett pointed out, it's illogical to require this for a two yardage event, but not a single yardage. The fact that this has gone on for 30 years just means it's way past due to change.

I agree that they are a good idea for State & National matches. I certainly would have no problem with a club that feels a need as you described to use them. But the simple fact is, in eight years shooting two ranges, we have never had a need to use the backers to deal with a crossfire. I'll choose not to speculate why this is different from your experience, but we have not needed them. If they are so important, then why don't all clubs use them for all events? The answer should be obvious.

Rick

 

[Dick Grosbier]

Well Men as I said previously.

At any rate the no backers required rule is dead for this season. lf you really want to mount another effort for next year. While I personally am against the idea completely I would strongly suggest the person writing the agenda item leave both Nationals and State Championships unaffected, as having no stationary backers in either of these type matches that attract shooters from hundreds of miles away is simply an unacceptable

Rick, Randy, Mike this will be my last post on this thread, I am just tired of batting it back and forth.

There is only one way to change the situation and it has two parts. Part A is get 25 signatures and put a proposed rule change on the Annual meeting agenda. Part B is muster enough support at the annual meeting to get your idea passed. Part A was successful this year Part B was not, get your people together and prepared for next year and perhaps they will be successful. That is the only way it is going to happen even next year. I wish you success as either way it will not alter how we run shoots at Thurmont

Dick

 

[Greyfox]

Rick, Randy, Mike this will be my last post on this thread, I am just tired of batting it back and forth.

There is only one way to change the situation and it has two parts. Part A is get 25 signatures and put a proposed rule change on the Annual meeting agenda. Part B is muster enough support at the annual meeting to get your idea passed. Part A was successful this year Part B was not, get your people together and prepared for next year and perhaps they will be successful. That is the only way it is going to happen even next year. I wish you success as either way it will not alter how we run shoots at Thurmont

Dick

Dick,
That is your choice. I can understand that you are tired of hearing about this. I am tired of dragging unnecessary backer frames out of the target shed at 6:30 in the morning, dealing with them all day and dragging them back at 5:30 in the evening having never looked at them all day other than to change paper. And this is while my friends north of KY can just hold a match on Saturday and another on Sunday and avoid the hassle.

I suspect that if this were a safety issue it would be addressed before the next annual meeting. Someone else looked up the schedule for next season and sent me this:

"There are a total of TWO, non-championship one day grand agg matches next year...none that are south of KY and VA. The rest are either championship, two day, or single yardage matches." That comes to 27-2.

At a time when we claim to be looking for ways to bring in more shooters and more clubs to hold matches, it seems to me to be counterproductive to require unnecessary rules that have been around for 30 years to continue. For the record I have not suggested that any club that sees a need for stationary backer be barred from using them. I fully support their use at National & State matches. If I had experienced their need as you clearly have at Thurmont, I'd certainly advocate their use, but this is not the case.

As Vice President, I would think it would be your job to work to correct inequities such as this. If it's all my responsibility to gather support and make sure we all get to the annual meeting then something is clearly wrong with the system.

Rick Fox

 

[Putunia]

Grayfox
to speed things up at your matches, there is nothing in the rules that says the holes in the backers
must be taped over.

 

[Pete Wass]

Mr Pete,
In the first place I haven't attacked you or anyone else. If I had you would be bleeding
What I am addressing is the inequity of requiring stationary backers for two yardage matches and not requiring them for single yardage matches. This makes absolutely no sense and it appears that few if any have noticed this in the past.

I have attempted to point out that the majority of GA matches take place in the south, but most of us in the south are unable to attend the annual meeting. The majority of the single yardage matches take place in the northern part of the country and most of those who attend the annual meeting shoot mainly single yardage matches, but vote to keep the backer rule in place for the GA matches. So even though the voters vote to keep the rule in place, they don't even use it themselves for single yardage matches. Yes, I know the rules don't require it for single yardages, but if it is needed for two yardages, it's needed for one. I don't really care why this was started or when or what is customary or what isn't. I do care about required to do a lot of unnecessary work, when the folks who vote to extend the rule don't.

Is this clear enough for you or do I need to go over it again using color glossy photos with circles, arrows and descriptions on the back?

BTW- Where was I factually wrong in my earlier post that was addressed to you?

Rick Fox

Mr Rick,

I survived the Southeast Asia experience so threats of making me bloody have absolutely no affect . I am not at all concerned about any of the posabilities.

Mr Rick, this is all about claiming Grand Agg Points, and conducting matche according to the rules, that's all. Trying to make any more of it makes no sense. IBS has a proceedure to make changes to rule and that has been outlined. Matches conducted on seperate days, as most are, STILL require Stationary Backers to be able to claim Grand Agg Points.

Pete

 

[Greyfox]

Mr Rick,

I survived the Southeast Asia experience so threats of making me bloody have absolutely no affect . I am not at all concerned about any of the posabilities.

Mr Rick, this is all about claiming Grand Agg Points, and conducting matche according to the rules, that's all. Trying to make any more of it makes no sense. IBS has a proceedure to make changes to rule and that has been outlined. Matches conducted on seperate days, as most are, STILL require Stationary Backers to be able to claim Grand Agg Points.

Pete

I am certainly impressed with your survival. However, I've certainly made no threats toward you and have no intention of doing so. This isn't about people, it's about ideas and rules.

Also, it isn't about Grand Agg points, it's about pointless work that's required by said rules and people who aren't interested in changing the rules because it doesn't affect them. I think I may have to move on to the pictures and descriptions with the circles and arrows if I choose to continue to deal with you.

Good grief.....

Rick