IBS Annual Meeting Summary

[Greyfox]

Jackie and Al, I agree that the present rule makes no sense but I certainly don't want to see ranges saddled with more work to hold a match. It is a lot of work to hold a match and many ranges are not blessed with help. Stay warm and shoot well. Steve

Steve, It seems to me that those of us who make the effort to hold two yardage matches are already being saddled with more work than is necessary. I notice that no one has responded to my question regarding ranges that shoot one yardage using backers. Also, no one has related any incidents that required backers to determine crossfires.
If we are going to be required to use backers for all our matches, it only seems fair to require the same for everybody else. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Gallatin and Buck Creek have no more help than anyone else and we already have to pay for target crew help. You don't have to tell me how much work it is to hold a match.

I assure you this inequity is not going to be ignored here.

Rick

 

[Pete Wass]

Pete, the real quetion is why are they "needed", only for grand aggs, and not single yardage events. Has there ever been a case where they were needed in a single yardage event and they didn't have them? If not, why/what is the difference? If there has been a case when they were needed, but not required or used, in a single yardage match, what was the resolution?--Mike

Perhaps allowing points for the Grand Agg is the reward for using the backers. At any rate, that is implicit in the need for them when Grand Aggs are contested. It's pretty simple really, the rule sez if a Grand Agg is to be contested then backers must be used ( Paraphrasing, of course) and apparently those present at the Annual Meeting agreed.

I have no problem using them at a single yardage match. It will add perhaps 30 minutes to the contest, an hour at most.

 

[mwezell]

Perhaps allowing points for the Grand Agg is the reward for using the backers. At any rate, that is implicit in the need for them when Grand Aggs are contested. It's pretty simple really, the rule sez if a Grand Agg is to be contested then backers must be used ( Paraphrasing, of course) and apparently those present at the Annual Meeting agreed.

I have no problem using them at a single yardage match. It will add perhaps 30 minutes to the contest, an hour at most.

Pete, with all due respect, without reference to an incident where they weren't required(single yardage), that could also imply that they aren't necessary at either. The annual meeting evidently did not address this issue in respect to single yardage aggs. Why is it that way to begin with is what I wonder, and if there hasn't been a problem in the past under current single agg rules, why is it so important for grand agg matches. Personally, I wish that ranges were free to not use them at all regular matches, and I myself, expected the vote to go that way at the meeting. Most everyone knows everyone else at these matches, and it seems to me, that we have done a remarkable job of policing ourselves. This is a credit to all that we shoot with. I was at the Nats in 08' where it happened too. That shooter readily fessed up then. I know him and would expect nothing less from him. I see this as no different than weighing every gun at every match. In any competition, there is, and has to be a certain level of trust that the other competitors will play fair. Keeping the matches as streamlined as possible for everyone is a big attribute to the score game, and is one reason it is popular. It's even mentioned on the IBS sight as one of it's goals. The recent survey that Jeff did,(thank you Jeff!) conveys a sentiment that we need more ranges and more shoots with more shooting, to grow the sport as a whole. Shooters simply won't travel as far to shoot for half a day. This was an oppurtunity to help lessen the burden of putting on a grand agg match. We need new shooters that are younger to create sustainable growth(I'm not calling you old either). They/we have to be at work or tend to other priorities when they/we get home, and their time is more limited than the retired. In light of the results of the survey fresh on our minds, I see this as a missed oppurtunity at helping new clubs and new shooters to be involved. I understand that crossfires will happen, and have seen it only twice. Neither time was it an issue as the shooter quickly fessed up. I think we can police this issue, like gun weight and flag height/placement at the range. I want to keep this a civil discussion of this subject, and this is my view and that's all it is. I do still feel like there MUST have been some reason why it is so clear that only the Grand Agg matches are required to use them, besides the points. Points are at stake at both single and grand matches. Let's keep the discussion clean but hear other opinions. Maybe it can be put on the ballot again and setteled, one way or the other for both grand and single agg matches. My view is that it's certainly not fair in any way to the clubs that hold grands and is a step in the wrong direction, if we want to make it easier to get new clubs and shooters involved. Well..that's my way of looking at it. I would think there are others that share a similar view if it was brought up at the meeting. Am I the only one that feels this way?--Mike Ezell

 

[TonyinKY]

100% total agreement.

Pete, with all due respect, without reference to an incident where they weren't required(single yardage), that could also imply that they aren't necessary at either. The annual meeting evidently did not address this issue in respect to single yardage aggs. Why is it that way to begin with is what I wonder, and if there hasn't been a problem in the past under current single agg rules, why is it so important for grand agg matches. Personally, I wish that ranges were free to not use them at all regular matches, and I myself, expected the vote to go that way at the meeting. Most everyone knows everyone else at these matches, and it seems to me, that we have done a remarkable job of policing ourselves. This is a credit to all that we shoot with. I was at the Nats in 08' where it happened too. That shooter readily fessed up then. I know him and would expect nothing less from him. I see this as no different than weighing every gun at every match. In any competition, there is, and has to be a certain level of trust that the other competitors will play fair. Keeping the matches as streamlined as possible for everyone is a big attribute to the score game, and is one reason it is popular. It's even mentioned on the IBS sight as one of it's goals. The recent survey that Jeff did,(thank you Jeff!) conveys a sentiment that we need more ranges and more shoots with more shooting, to grow the sport as a whole. Shooters simply won't travel as far to shoot for half a day. This was an oppurtunity to help lessen the burden of putting on a grand agg match. We need new shooters that are younger to create sustainable growth(I'm not calling you old either). They/we have to be at work or tend to other priorities when they/we get home, and their time is more limited than the retired. In light of the results of the survey fresh on our minds, I see this as a missed oppurtunity at helping new clubs and new shooters to be involved. I understand that crossfires will happen, and have seen it only twice. Neither time was it an issue as the shooter quickly fessed up. I think we can police this issue, like gun weight and flag height/placement at the range. I want to keep this a civil discussion of this subject, and this is my view and that's all it is. I do still feel like there MUST have been some reason why it is so clear that only the Grand Agg matches are required to use them, besides the points. Points are at stake at both single and grand matches. Let's keep the discussion clean but hear other opinions. Maybe it can be put on the ballot again and setteled, one way or the other for both grand and single agg matches. My view is that it's certainly not fair in any way to the clubs that hold grands and is a step in the wrong direction, if we want to make it easier to get new clubs and shooters involved. Well..that's my way of looking at it. I would think there are others that share a similar view if it was brought up at the meeting. Am I the only one that feels this way?--Mike Ezell

 

[R.G. Robinett]

How about this scenario . . . On a particular day, or set of days, a club conducts TWO [separate] IBS registered events: a 100 Yd. and a 200 yd. The club does NOT employ stationary backers. Each of the yardages are valid, for both record and SSOY points, but somehow, the SUM of the two is questionable. What's the logic behind this? Oh, and where/when do ALL of these [unowned] cross-fires occur (I'll avoid those venues) . . . ???? Why should a rule favor a single yardage format, over a GRAND AGGREGATE format? Why 'penalize'(discourage) the effort to promote GRAND AGG tournaments? What's to FEAR? I'll repeat the question, how can the sum of two valid totals NOT also be valid?

As Al Nyhus pointed out, the PRIMARY reason for a stationary backer SHOULD be to protect the innocent (not Francis B. ) - not a problem at local events, where people quickly 'fess-up' to their mistakes. RG

 

[Dick Grosbier]

Why single yardage Score shoots do not require backers but they are still recommended

Gentlemen
The no stationary backers required at single yardage shoots rule dates back to well before 1982 which is when I started shooting IBS Hunter class. Originally all IBS matches required stationary backers for tracking crossfires. Two new ranges desired to hold one day 100yd only shoots but their target frames backed up too close to the berm to allow use of a stationary backer. There were only two grand aggregate matches per season at this time the 100/200 Nationals and the Pennsylvania State Championship. It was decided to allow single yardage shoots without requiring stationary backers to promote the idea of simple easy to run shoots that small clubs could hold with a minimum amount of help. It needs to be remembered here that the rules still suggest the usage of stationary backers they simply do not require it. These simple one day shoots aided in the spread of IBS Score Shooting causing it to grow and many clubs to join IBS simply because putting on a two day two gun group match was more than they had personnel to handle. I know of at least one club where one person does it all, Range Officer, Scoring and Target crew and I am told he does a very good job. Until the last ten years or so one day one yardage Score shoots were the norm with only 5 or 6 grand aggregate shoots in a season. As IBS began to grow and spread into areas outside the North East Grand Aggregate shoots proliferated often with two yardages being shot in one day. I can understand why people want to do away with stationary backers it is a good bit of extra work to protect against the very small number of unclaimed crossfires, however I am here to tell you I have personally over the last 10 or so years been involved in at least 8 crossfire situations where without the backer the shooter would have suffered the consequences of someone else’s errant shot. In the 16 Bud Pryor and 5 or 6 Nationals I have been involved with at Thurmont we have had to pull and use Stationary backers countless times. I know stationary backers seem like unnecessary extra work most of the time but I really would not want to see someone drive 1000 miles to a State Championship match as was done by several people last season and have their efforts ruined by an unclaimed crossfire. I ( unlike some) believe almost all crossfires are accidental but I have seen some of my best friends crossfire and be unable to bring their mind to accept the fact they did it. I also have heard of people intentionally doing it (thankfully I have never seen this happen) and those people, if caught should be treated severely, mere disqualification is not enough in my mind.

At any rate the no backers required rule is dead for this season. lf you really want to mount another effort for next year. While I personally am against the idea completely I would strongly suggest the person writing the agenda item leave both Nationals and State Championships unaffected, as having no stationary backers in either of these type matches that attract shooters from hundreds of miles away is simply an unacceptable idea in my mind and kills your chance of success.

Dick Grosbier
IBS Vice President

 

[Dick Grosbier]

Each of the yardages are valid, for both record and SSOY points, but somehow, the SUM of the two is questionable.

Actually Randy there is no question about either aggregate they simply have not met the criteria for being considered a grand agg.

Dick

 

[Randy Jarvais]

There is no plausible reason to have backers for a grand aggregate and not for single yardage events. The arguments for backers are the same regardless of how many aggregates are being shot as the need for backers is in the moment. I have seen contested targets that were not resolved to my satisfaction as there were no backer. It is hard to confess to something if you don't know you did it. I have also seen contested targets that were not resolved to my satisfaction when there were backers as the backers weren't used. A person said he didn't shoot all those shots after the targets were scored and he was given the benefit of doubt and given the better score. Strictly against the rules but done none the less. I have had my targets crossfired upon enough times to vote to have backers for every shoot but I am also comfortable enough to give local control. There is a vast difference between a club shooting with same 7 people each time with plenty of space between each target vs a club with 40 members shooting at targets that are in close proximity to each other. In both cases, each club knows best what they need or do not need for local matches. As long as they were advertised whether they were or were not using backers, travelers would know before heading out and would have to accept the risk. We do that with 7 minutes matches. Maybe the answer lies with how many competitors are in attendance (just a quick thought there, so flame on if you wish)??? I certainly would hate to see no backers at State and National events, though. As I said earlier, I wish we used backers all the time! Randy J.

 

[pbike]

There were 2 proposals on the Grand Agg backer topic at this meeting. One fell 35-2, the other fell 32-5. It's my understanding that there may be a Proposal in the works to require stationary backers at all registered score matches. If this proposal becomes an agenda item, those of you that oppose this ruling need to get about 30 like minded individuals to next years meeting. Attendence at this years meeting was the lowest I have seen in five years. An agenda item like that may just bring out some voters. South Eastern PA in January is beautiful.

 

[R.G. Robinett]

Gentlemen
The no stationary backers required at single yardage shoots rule dates back to well before 1982 which is when I started shooting IBS Hunter class. Originally all IBS matches required stationary backers for tracking crossfires. Two new ranges desired to hold one day 100yd only shoots but their target frames backed up too close to the berm to allow use of a stationary backer. There were only two grand aggregate matches per season at this time the 100/200 Nationals and the Pennsylvania State Championship. It was decided to allow single yardage shoots without requiring stationary backers to promote the idea of simple easy to run shoots that small clubs could hold with a minimum amount of help. It needs to be remembered here that the rules still suggest the usage of stationary backers they simply do not require it. These simple one day shoots aided in the spread of IBS Score Shooting causing it to grow and many clubs to join IBS simply because putting on a two day two gun group match was more than they had personnel to handle. I know of at least one club where one person does it all, Range Officer, Scoring and Target crew and I am told he does a very good job. Until the last ten years or so one day one yardage Score shoots were the norm with only 5 or 6 grand aggregate shoots in a season. As IBS began to grow and spread into areas outside the North East Grand Aggregate shoots proliferated often with two yardages being shot in one day. I can understand why people want to do away with stationary backers it is a good bit of extra work to protect against the very small number of unclaimed crossfires, however I am here to tell you I have personally over the last 10 or so years been involved in at least 8 crossfire situations where without the backer the shooter would have suffered the consequences of someone else’s errant shot. In the 16 Bud Pryor and 5 or 6 Nationals I have been involved with at Thurmont we have had to pull and use Stationary backers countless times. I know stationary backers seem like unnecessary extra work most of the time but I really would not want to see someone drive 1000 miles to a State Championship match as was done by several people last season and have their efforts ruined by an unclaimed crossfire. I ( unlike some) believe almost all crossfires are accidental but I have seen some of my best friends crossfire and be unable to bring their mind to accept the fact they did it. I also have heard of people intentionally doing it (thankfully I have never seen this happen) and those people, if caught should be treated severely, mere disqualification is not enough in my mind.

At any rate the no backers required rule is dead for this season. lf you really want to mount another effort for next year. While I personally am against the idea completely I would strongly suggest the person writing the agenda item leave both Nationals and State Championships unaffected, as having no stationary backers in either of these type matches that attract shooters from hundreds of miles away is simply an unacceptable idea in my mind and kills your chance of success.

Dick Grosbier
IBS Vice President

Dick, for National and State Championships, the proposal DID maintain the stationary backer requirement! I appreciate your explanation, however, it DOES NOT address the issue of logic, but rather, the way it's always been. Simply put, the initial rule was not carried to a logical conclusion. Yes, another attempt WILL be made next year . . . but, it's never too early to incorporate logic into the discussion. Again, HOW CAN THE SUM equal LESS that the PARTS? That is the issue to carry forward, and which was addressed in the proposal. RG

 

[Greyfox]

"Dick, for National and State Championships, the proposal DID maintain the stationary backer requirement! I appreciate your explanation, however, it DOES NOT address the issue of logic, but rather, the way it's always been. Simply put, the initial rule was not carried to a logical conclusion. Yes, another attempt WILL be made next year . . . but, it's never too early to incorporate logic into the discussion. Again, HOW CAN THE SUM equal LESS that the PARTS? That is the issue to carry forward, and which was addressed in the proposal. RG"

Dick,
I'll second what Randy commented here. I thought your explanation was clear. The requirement for national & state matches is reasonable and possibly necessary, although I tend to doubt your statement that the examination of the stationary backers has been needed "countless" times. I suspect that might be a bit of an exaggeration. Nevertheless, it seems to me that the majority of the two yardage GA are shot in the south and the majority of the single yardage matches are shot in the north. Therefore those who are in a position to vote don't use the backers, but impose what they think is needed on those of us who are unable to attend. I am willing to be wrong, but this is my perception.

Rick

 

[Greyfox]

Perhaps allowing points for the Grand Agg is the reward for using the backers. At any rate, that is implicit in the need for them when Grand Aggs are contested. It's pretty simple really, the rule sez if a Grand Agg is to be contested then backers must be used ( Paraphrasing, of course) and apparently those present at the Annual Meeting agreed.

I have no problem using them at a single yardage match. It will add perhaps 30 minutes to the contest, an hour at most.

Pete,
Your response to Mike indicates to me that you are not accustomed to using stationary backers for single yargade matches. So, I have a few questions.

1. How many registered matches did you shoot last year?
2. How many of those were single yardage matches?
3. How many of those matches used stationary backers?
3. How many of those backers did you personally place and/or replace?

Rick

 

[steve stanley]

I think the nationals and state championship should require the backers, the others should be recommended but not required as single yardage matches are now.

 

[JackieStogsdill]

I think the nationals and state championship should require the backers, the others should be recommended but not required as single yardage matches are now.

Steve. I agree 100%. I really thought thats the way it would be after the winter meeting. Perhaps if it had been worded like you just said, the vote would have been different.

 

[pbike]

Jackie, Rick, Steve etc. You guys really have to get to a meeting. The wording means little if anything, the wording gets the signatures to bring it up on the agenda, that's all! Until it is brought up, discussed, revised, discussed, revised again, and voted on as revised, it means nothing. At that point the ruling could have been turned 180 degrees from the intention of the original proposal. Even after that it's only a temporary rule until voted on (ratified) by the membership with the ballots sent out in November. You should have seen the tuner adjustment discussion, and flag row and height rule change discussion.

 

[Dick Grosbier]

Dick, for National and State Championships, the proposal DID maintain the stationary backer requirement!

"Dick, for National and State Championships, the proposal DID maintain the stationary backer requirement!

Randy and Rick
As presented at the meeting there were two proposals, one that exempted Nationals and one that did not.
If I recall correctly Bill Sargent Chairman of the Score Committee offered up an amendment to exclude State Championships and I seconded it. It failed miserably to pass so the agenda items were voted on without changes. If the original agenda item did in fact exempt State Championships something went wrong somewhere along the line in the writing up of the agenda item. Here is link to the agenda items as displayed on webpage for several months and it is still there.

http://internationalbenchrest.com/news/2011_IBS_Annual_Meeting_agenda_Items FINAL.pdf

Dick

 

[mwezell]

Randy and Rick
As presented at the meeting there were two proposals, one that exempted Nationals and one that did not.
If I recall correctly Bill Sargent Chairman of the Score Committee offered up an amendment to exclude State Championships and I seconded it. It failed miserably to pass so the agenda items were voted on without changes. If the original agenda item did in fact exempt State Championships something went wrong somewhere along the line in the writing up of the agenda item. Here is link to the agenda items as displayed on webpage for several months and it is still there.

http://internationalbenchrest.com/news/2011_IBS_Annual_Meeting_agenda_Items FINAL.pdf

Dick

It's hard to fathom the EBoard's recommendation excluding single yardage aggs, not raising an eyebrow, resulting in including those matches to the agenda item. It would have at least made it fair and I know it's been discussed at the clubs. Maybe the part about state matches would have mattered, maybe not. All of the people that I've discussed this with thus far have voiced being in favor of backers NOT being required at club matches. Not faulting anyone, as I can only blame myself for not being heard earlier. The results are surprising though, at least. I wonder how many voters shoot and help put on grand agg matches at the club level regularly, and if that possible geographic difference had a bearing on the result.--Mike

 

[Pete Wass]

I couldn't tell you exactly how many matches I attended and shot at but I shot at somewhere around 20. I traveled to Kentucky early in the spring and shot at George's Money Match. I shot all of the matches that were schedules in Maine and most of those in Vermont and I drove on out and shot all 4 days at the Nationals in Michigan, How many did you attend and shoot in?

The predominance of all the matches in the Central East and North East are single yard matches.

I was the Match Director for this year's Maine State 100-200 so I dealt with the backers, which included replacing the plywood on them. I hired a Target Crew for that event. I have in the past and will continue to into the future become part of the target crew to tape backers. I don't feel like just because I paid to shoot in an event I am some sort of celebratary and can't lower myself to help where help is needed. I pre-load so I have the time.

We will hold a two yardage in one day event at Augusta, Maine this Summer. We will be using our backers. It's pretty simple, if backers weren't important and everyone could be trusted to be able to remember and do the right thing, backers wouldn't be neededd, either in Score or Group. How many sanctioned Group matches are held each year where the Honor System is used? Why would Score shooting be any different with regard to using backers?

I think you might want to choose someone else to pin down about this subject. I have lived this for a dozen or more years and helped with backers when I was needed and could help. It ain't no big deal and feels good to help make the match go smoother.

All the State matches in New England and the Nationals in Michigan had Stationary Backers. If you want to know more about my shooting activities all you need to do is go look in the IBS Score results for the past 12 years and you will see my name there.

 

[Jeff Stover]

Gentlemen. I discussed this issue with Jim Borden who has the most "institutional memory" of any of us (except for maybe Bob White). The reason for the single aggregate "exemption" from having backers was that two clubs-Sulphyr Springs and one other-physically could not have backers because of target frame to backstop configurations. The original intent was for ALL score matches to have backers, but then things morphed into what we have now.

jks

 

[Pete Wass]

It's hard to fathom the EBoard's recommendation excluding single yardage aggs, not raising an eyebrow, resulting in including those matches to the agenda item. It would have at least made it fair and I know it's been discussed at the clubs. Maybe the part about state matches would have mattered, maybe not. All of the people that I've discussed this with thus far have voiced being in favor of backers NOT being required at club matches. Not faulting anyone, as I can only blame myself for not being heard earlier. The results are surprising though, at least. I wonder how many voters shoot and help put on grand agg matches at the club level regularly, and if that possible geographic difference had a bearing on the result.--Mike

Mike,

Any match that is sanctioned by IBS is not a Club Match. It is an IBS match and all the rules in the book apply. Geography has no bearing on the rules, the rules are for everybody everywhere. It was a mistake permitting this entire Geographical arguement to be allowed to exist anyway, in my opinion. How can an International Orginization with a set of written rules allow any divergence? It has happened and it was a mistake for the Orginization to allow it to happen, in my opinion. Without a set of Standardized Rules an orginization is not much more than a "Free for All". It's a shame. We shouldn't be worrying about accomodating anyone. Either they are on board 100% or they go elsewhere, is my feeling.

There are a half a dozen Rim Fire Orgs as you may notice. None of them seem to be concerned about having a set of standardized rules to be run by, from what I've seen. People either shoot in one or several of them, some don't require membership to participate. They don't have Regional Rules that I have seen. Does NBRSA have Regional Rules?