I know I'm not supposed to let ammonia sit in a barrel.

F

frwillia

Guest
But I don't remember why. I suspect it is corrosion related, but I don't remember the reaction between ammonia and stainless or carbon steel.

Can somebody explain it or point me toward a web page where that is explained?

Thanks
Fitch
 
frwillia said:
But I don't remember why. I suspect it is corrosion related, but I don't remember the reaction between ammonia and stainless or carbon steel.

Can somebody explain it or point me toward a web page where that is explained?

Thanks
Fitch
Click to expand...

It's a myth. I think it started many years ago when corrosive ammunition was used and the myth has continued to this day.

For instance after damage to a bore from corrosive ammunition, some one may have thought it needed a good cleaning to get all the copper out... and after soaking with Sweets and getting it as clean as could be, then saw all the corrosive damage and concluded it must be the ammonia... :rolleyes:

The only thing you need to worry about is letting a chrome moly bore dry out after using Sweets or any other ammonia product. The steel will be so clean it will be susceptible to rusting.

I have exposed chrome moly and stainless washers for an extended period of time to ammonia based cleaners and the steels were not damaged at all.

.
 
Fitch

There has been more than one shooter who has taken some Sweets, or other high ammonia cleaner, and placed it on a piece of 416 Stainless for a week, then wiped it clean, only to see no visible damage.

The makers of Butches, which has a fair amount of ammonia, says it will not hurt a Stainless Barrel if you leave it in.

Chrome Moly is probably a different story.

Here is an interesting corolation. I work in the Marine industry. We deal with a lot of Stainless Steels; 308,309, 316, 17-4. You can take a piece of any of these and toss them in the Intra Coastal Canal, (some rather brackish coastal water), and nothing happens.

But, take and tie a rope, or stretch a piece of rubber around it, and it will eat a grove in that same piece of steel.

For what it's worth, I always leave a thin film of Butches in my barrels, (you can't get it all out), and nothing of detrement seems to happen........
 
Amonia caution..

There are wo different types of amonia solutions. (maybe more)

1. aquous amonia is water based and will cause oxidation

2. Amorphous amonia is oil based and will not cause oxidation

oxidation and ferrous metals don't go together

Barrels are generally made with 416 stainless and or 4140 chrome molly both are ferrous.

Rustystud
 
A friend gave me a barrel which was bew, but rusty in the bore. I scrubbed and scrubbed but couldn't get the rust out. I plugged one end and filled it with muratic acid. At the same time I placed a rusty tool (scrubbed) in a pan of the same acid. When the rust was off the tool I drained and rinsed the barrel. Nice and clean, shoots great. The barrel was useless as it was. The only thing I couldn't get out was some minor pitting. I've used ammonia to get extreme fouling out of a barrel. Point is: Sometimes a harsh cure is better than the condition you have. I wouldn't put either in a normal barrel.
 
Not sure about the "myth"

Dennis

Being encumbered by being a mechanical engineer that spent most of his career in the Pulp and Paper business, I certainly would not state that ammonia corrosion of 400 series SS is a myth............you can not use 400 series stainless in a pulp or papermill to be in contact with ammonia.

When testing corrosion of any metal it needs to be done in the medium and condition in which it is used. Immersion of 416 samples in 28% ammonia is not a viable test.
Samples that have been heated, then smeared with gilding metal and powder residue, then abraded with brass brush or something like JB is a way to start. Then expose the sample to the solution and wipe it off and let air contact do its work.

I have seen corrosion in some barrels over the years that I can definitively conclude came form the use of 28% ammonia cleaners.

Just another viewpoint for folks to take as they wish

Jim
 
Jim,

what you said, " expose the sample to the solution and wipe it off and let air contact do its work "

and what I said, " The only thing you need to worry about is letting a chrome moly bore dry out after using Sweets or any other ammonia product. The steel will be so clean it will be susceptible to rusting "

isn't far apart...
 
Two different concepts

Dennis

Two different concepts. Some steels have a higher tendency to corrode with weak solutions of certain chemicals and exposure to oxygen than a strong, immersed solution. What I am talking about is the chemical action that takes place--not the drying of the steel for exposure to moisture.

I understand what you are saying and what you have stated is certainly a condition that could and would cause corrosion.

The condition of 416 ss (as with any other material) can effect rate and extent of corrosion. I would expect that folks who vigorously clean barrels squeaky clean would have more problems with chemical corrosion of the 416 since they are removing the passive layer when they clean them that clean. It may also increase the tendency to foul.

Jim

Jim
 
Amonia strength..

I my have been sold a bill of goods on this but I was told by a knowledgable chemist that the maximum concentration with amonia was much higher with oil imersion amonia. This is why Montana Extreme was "so much better than its water based counter parts.
Rustystud
 
Did ya all know

There are now modern bore cleaners that do not use ammonia and work even better?

Bore Tech Eliminator is my favorite none ammonia cleaner for copper fouling barrels.
 
John S said:
There are now modern bore cleaners that do not use ammonia and work even better?

Bore Tech Eliminator is my favorite none ammonia cleaner for copper fouling barrels.
Click to expand...

Not knowing any better I clean my barrels based on the article on cleaning I read on 6mmBR. Get the carbon out first, then the metal fouling. The one difference is that I put 3 patches wet with PatchOut through the bore at the range and leave them wet for the trip home from the range. Patchout seems to do a good job of getting rid of powder and metal fouling.

The two barrels I looked in with the borescope lastnight had been cleaned with BoreTech Eliminator following carbon removal with MPRO-7. A nylon brush was used with both MPRO-7 and BoreTech.

There was "nothing" resembling either carbon or metal fouling anyplace in either barrel. Even the barrel that looks like a tublar nicholson file was clean to the bottom of the "file teeth".

That was, at least to me, good evidence those two used in sequence will result in a "clean" barrel.

Fitch
 
Well since I have never seen damage caused by using ammonia cleaners I am going to do a test using Sweets, one of the oldest ammonia cleaners and it states on the bottle, "DO NOT LEAVE PRODUCT IN THE BARREL FOR PERIODS LONGER THAN 15 MINUTES."

I am going to take a piece of used chrome moly barrel and cut it lengthwise to expose the bore and treat one side only with Sweets, I will choose undamaged areas of the one side of the dirty bore and let Sweets sit there and react as it will and the next day inspect for damage... and then repeat the procedure for a week or so. The other side will be cleaned with Wipe Out and patched dry and oiled for comparison.

I'll post the results when I finish. Hopefully with pictures.

.
 
John S said:
There are now modern bore cleaners that do not use ammonia and work even better?

Bore Tech Eliminator is my favorite none ammonia cleaner for copper fouling barrels.
Click to expand...

Gentlemen,

I took a trip up two of John's barrel's the other day with my Hawkeye and had never seen barrels that clean. Both were factory Remington's, one a 22-250, and the other a .243...both noted for their propensity to foul. They were both typical factory Remingtons...far from smooth, and the 22-250 was a torched, fire-cracked mess. But they were durn near spotless...much better looking than my own custom tubes that get cleaned regularly with Butch's and a brass brush. John told me he cleans with Bore Tech Eliminator and Slip 2000, both of which I am now on a quest for. I was impressed.

While I, like a lot of others, don't believe one needs a squeeky clean barrel for it to perform at it's best, I do believe a product that allows one to clean his barrels to the point where there performing their best, and does so with with less effort, time, and most importantly, less cleaning rod strokes is most definitely desirable.

Have others experimented with either of these two products? I would love to hear your thoughts.

Justin
 
Dennis Sorensen said:
Well since I have never seen damage caused by using ammonia cleaners I am going to do a test using Sweets, one of the oldest ammonia cleaners and it states on the bottle, "DO NOT LEAVE PRODUCT IN THE BARREL FOR PERIODS LONGER THAN 15 MINUTES."

I am going to take a piece of used chrome moly barrel and cut it lengthwise to expose the bore and treat one side only with Sweets, I will choose undamaged areas of the one side of the dirty bore and let Sweets sit there and react as it will and the next day inspect for damage... and then repeat the procedure for a week or so. The other side will be cleaned with Wipe Out and patched dry and oiled for comparison.

I'll post the results when I finish. Hopefully with pictures.

.
Click to expand...

Cool!

Fitch
 
I can tell you that if I leave Butch's in the bore of a CrMo barrel for more than a couple hours the next patch will be very rusty.

James.
 
I don't have a borescope..........

but I have used the Mpro7 cleaner, & oil for the last two years or so. I have to say, I am very impressed with both. A number of black powder shooters have thanked me for the recommendation to try both. What they do is copiously wet the bore w/Kroil & let it set overnight, for 1st cleaning of a heavily-fouled barrel, then scrub till clean or repeat as needed, then get everything out w/the Mpro7 cleaner, then dry, then burnish-in the Mpro7 oil each evening 50-100 passes for 2-3 nights(had one guy that was anal & did 300/night for 3wks.) They all have come back & said the best they have ever had the B/P bbls seat/shoot/clean ever!! And, smokeless shooters say their Bbls clean faster & they believe cleaner. I know I've seen less copper, & carbon & groups have improved a bit, but, I admit, I don't have the equipment you guys have, & I haven't done any real scientific tests, either. But they do seem to clean faster & easier w/these 2 prods. That oil does appear to be much "wetter" than anything else I've used, so far.:)
 
MPro-7 works really well to get rid of carbon. It's almost as good as Slip2000. I don't think it does much at all for for copper fouling. Using MPro-7 and a really good copper remover like BoreTech Eliminator in sequence works great.

PatchOut (the non-fioaming version of WipeOut) works remarkably well on both powder and copper fouling.

Fitch
 
Dennis Sorensen said:
Well since I have never seen damage caused by using ammonia cleaners I am going to do a test using Sweets, one of the oldest ammonia cleaners and it states on the bottle, "DO NOT LEAVE PRODUCT IN THE BARREL FOR PERIODS LONGER THAN 15 MINUTES."

I am going to take a piece of used chrome moly barrel and cut it lengthwise to expose the bore and treat one side only with Sweets, I will choose undamaged areas of the one side of the dirty bore and let Sweets sit there and react as it will and the next day inspect for damage... and then repeat the procedure for a week or so. The other side will be cleaned with Wipe Out and patched dry and oiled for comparison.

I'll post the results when I finish. Hopefully with pictures.

.
Click to expand...

Well it has been a few days now since I took both stainless and chrome moly barrels, both fouled by shooting, cut sections down the middle, inspected and treated one half by soaking in Sweets for a few days and comparing it to the other half which was not soaked in Sweets but simply cleaned and dried and oiled. I dry patched the soaked "clean" barrel sections and can see no difference in the surface of the bore. No damage that I can see... after 5 days of exposure to Sweets 7.62 ammonia based cleaner. Sweets states on the product bottle to not leave it in the bore longer than 15 minutes. I suspect that is because the cleaning effect expires by then.

I tried taking pictures but I can not take a macro close up that shows anything meaningful.

I will continue to use an ammonia based cleaner with no worry about barrel damage. Probably a good idea to follow the manufacturers instructions as well.


.
 
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