I know I'm not supposed to let ammonia sit in a barrel.

Years ago, I accidentally left Sweets in a chromoly barrel overnight....and it pitted. That was enough for me. When I read about the need for a strong copper cleaner for lapped match barrels, I wonder why. My experience has been, at least with my 6PPC, shooting mostly 133, that Butch's, bronze brushes, and patches do the job just fine. This has been confirmed by bore scope.

I have known shooters that seemed to be continually checking there barrels for copper with Sweets, and finding it. This has made me wonder if they are either changing the interior finish of their barrels by using Sweets, or stripping them down so bare that they pick up more copper than they otherwise would.

I think that one of the unintended consequences of the proliferation of bore scopes has been the tendency to over clean barrels. I know that this will disturb some shooters, but while I think that cleaning is important, I also think that the determining how much is optimal should be mostly done by looking at targets.

BTW there is another factor involved in this that has not been discussed in this thread, inclusions in steel that may react differently to cleaning chemicals than the steel itself.
 
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Boyd Allen said:
Years ago, I accidentally left Sweets in a chromoly barrel overnight....and it pitted. That was enough for me. When I read about the need for a strong copper cleaner for lapped match barrels, I wonder why. My experience has been, at least with my 6PPC, shooting mostly 133, that Butch's, bronze brushes, and patches do the job just fine. This has been confirmed by bore scope.

I have known shooters that seemed to be continually checking there barrels for copper with Sweets, and finding it. This has made me wonder if they are either changing the interior finish of their barrels by using Sweets, or stripping them down so bare that they pick up more copper than they otherwise would.

I think that one of the unintended consequences of the proliferation of bore scopes has been the tendency to over clean barrels. I know that this will disturb some shooters, but while I think that cleaning is important, I also think that the determining how much is optimal should be mostly done by looking at targets.

BTW there is another factor involved in this that has not been discussed in this thread, inclusions in steel that may react differently to cleaning chemicals than the steel itself.
Click to expand...

Perhaps it was pitted before the Sweets was left in?

Since no one has been able to affect bare rifle steel with ammonia based cleaners I thought I should leave the bore dirty in my test, thinking perhaps the fouling would affect the test... but it did not.
 
How about a survey of barrel makers? Ask the simple question, what are the effects they have seen using ammonia based solvents on the barrels they make?

Do they recommend the use of ammonia based cleaning solvents? Why or why not?

I've only asked this question of three barrel makers I use, the answer has been the same from all three.:D
 
I have a c-m Ruger .25-06 Douglas barrel that was damaged with Robla - Solo in well under two hours.

I had gone shooting that day and just got home .
I ran a few patches of Robla-Solo thru the two barrels -left them wet and went downstairs to make dinner.

By the time I got back to finish cleaning the solution was drying out - it was a hot summer night but probably only one hour later.

I had to put more solution thru to get the barrels clean.

The next day that barrel which shot Win 75 match at 3690 + or - 5 fps and .3 -5 @ 100 the day before cronographed 3520 fps and 100 ft sec varation .

groups at 200 were .6 wide and 4 + " verticle .......

When I checked the throat with a Siebert bore scope I saw PITTS.

Read carefully in "Hatchers Notebook" about the use of ammonia based cleaning solutions.

Don't let them dry out ... ever.


I still have the barrel and some Robla-solo if anyone wants to use them to test cleaning stuff.





Glenn:D
 
Dennis,
No, it was not pitted before the Sweets mistake...and I have gotten by quite well for many years without it. Going back to Sweets would be like shooting the second round in a loading block after the first one ruined a case. I don't require scientific verification to know that something bad happened. :)
 
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corrosion resistance of 416 in chemical atmoshpheres

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/metal-corrosion-resistance-d_491.html

http://www.hoke.com/resources/Hoke Corrosion Guide.pdf

Don't shoot the messenger, but Jim is correct. Ammonia does corrode 416, albeit, very very slowly at room temperatures. It appears slowly enough so that it is insignificant (compared to what a bullet does to a barrel with 4000 bar of hot gasses behind it.) Specific corrosion data is available from 416 manufacturers.

resistant does not mean impervious, so I think the smart thing to do is treat it as a necessary evil and minimize long term exposure to it, and follow it with a light oil film, then dry patches as recommended by some of the cleaner manufacturers.

It's obvious the benfits outweigh the risks. I will continue to use it.

Ben
 
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I just looked at my barrel stub that has been submerged for a couple years in ammonia and it still accepts the same Deltronic pin and they ain't no pits in it.
Butch
 
coated versus submerged

Coated versus submerged is worse situation for ammonia on 416. I guess based on the "scientific" test results I have seen here, I will have to let the ASM know that there are new, improved tests available that would now let 416 SS be used in ammonia applications in pulp and paper mills. That was not meant as saracasm-but said tongue in cheek of course.

I have seen gross advanced corrosion in 416 SS rifle barrels, in fact will have to dig up the negatives form a cross sectioned barrel from about 14 years ago and scan them in and publish again.

Jim
 
While we are waiting on Jim's photos, here is the results of several commercial and home brewed bore cleaning products.

The test piece shown is the shank of a Hart SS barrel. The test specimen was heated to 150F and maintained for 2-3 hours after the solvents were applied.

All this test really proves though is that normally used bore solvents, under an elevated temperature like just coming off the firing line will not harm a 416 barrel in the short term.
2pzmwjp.jpg


Solvents used, hown in the same order as the specimen,

orrp6e.jpg


Test specimen during test.

5xqs01.jpg
 
copper is the problem here !

ammonia on steel as no problem's but when you add copper things !
the ammonia react's with copper disloving it coupled with some water vapour ans the result is cupromoniumhydroxide which is very corrosive , moly is wers !

i have seen a test where a copper seamer on mild steel then trieted with ammonia basesd cleaner it showed highly corroded areas where the copper was seamerd !
 
p17p14enflield said:
ammonia on steel as no problem's but when you add copper things !
the ammonia react's with copper disloving it coupled with some water vapour ans the result is cupromoniumhydroxide which is very corrosive , moly is wers !

i have seen a test where a copper seamer on mild steel then trieted with ammonia basesd cleaner it showed highly corroded areas where the copper was seamerd !
Click to expand...

And the plot thickens.......

Regards to our friend from SA.

(Cu(NH 3 ) 4 . (OH) 2 )

Ben
 
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Bnhpr said:
Interesting science project.

so what's in the bottle to the far right that looks like bunker c?
Click to expand...

That was my morning coffee. Want to see what coffee does? degrease a spot on your lathe ways, near the end. Then pour a drop or two of coffee and let it set for ten minutes or so.


Actually is is Eds Red. I make mine with Marvel Mystery Oil instead of Kroil.
 
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