Yup, those 308's were the URBR cases......I've still got 4-5 boxes also. They're useless.
I have an old Carmichel Huntington CHeetah.....a flop with the URBR cases but it ROCKS the Palma cases....
How much difference
- Thread starter Pete Wass
- Start date
Yup, those 308's were the URBR cases......I've still got 4-5 boxes also. They're useless.
I have an old Carmichel Huntington CHeetah.....a flop with the URBR cases but it ROCKS the Palma cases....
Pete Wass
Well-known member
I have not been one
who put a lot of stock in cases adding much to rifle accuracy. It just hasn't been the experience I have had over the years with 30 Cal rifles.
I wouldn't disagree on the quality off BR cases. They are pretty much junk. The American 30-30 cases, on the other hand, are not junk and I saw no difference in the performance between them and any other 30-30 case I used. The Rem cases were too soft, mostly, from my experience; wouldn't hold primers with the juice we put into them. It has never made any sense to me that a small fire would be better than a large one or that it could matter all that much.
Pete
who put a lot of stock in cases adding much to rifle accuracy. It just hasn't been the experience I have had over the years with 30 Cal rifles.
I wouldn't disagree on the quality off BR cases. They are pretty much junk. The American 30-30 cases, on the other hand, are not junk and I saw no difference in the performance between them and any other 30-30 case I used. The Rem cases were too soft, mostly, from my experience; wouldn't hold primers with the juice we put into them. It has never made any sense to me that a small fire would be better than a large one or that it could matter all that much.
Pete
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There is a logical reason it works.....the old URBR cases have a huge flashhole and the new ones have a teeny PPC-sized hole. Firing them in the dark it's very easy to see the difference. The small hole builds pressure, sears long and hot like a torch. The fat hole dribbles like a garden hose.
I fireform in the dark a lot, using pistol powder. I have a no-barreled setup I can screw pipes onto. When I want to see primer effect I just leave the powder out.
I also have a bunch of 7.62X39 large flashhole cases concerted to PPC and I've drilled flashholes out incrementally.
This is a test anyone here could perform. With the PPC or with the 308. Or whatever...
If they would take the time.
Because the primer pocket and flashhole are drilled/punched into the casehead, they weaken the casehead. Generally speaking the "MAX" load of any round is that point at which the caseheads expand from hydraulic pressure.....which is the result of gas pressure metered thru the flashhole and expanding the primer pocket. Once the casehead expands, the primer gets loose and the case is destroyed. The small primer/flashhole combo allows one to run pressures up much higher (like PPC/BR rounds) which results in two gains. #1, a cleaner burn and #2 a higher working pressure. The result is higher velocity and generally better accuracy, altho this last is of course debatable..
Pete Wass
Well-known member
I decided
long ago that burning barrels out early was not the answer to my personal needs and that accuracy comes in nodes and is achievable at less of everything. I guess this is probably why I saw no difference, eh?
Pete
long ago that burning barrels out early was not the answer to my personal needs and that accuracy comes in nodes and is achievable at less of everything. I guess this is probably why I saw no difference, eh?
Pete
Kirk Ethridge
New member
7-08
I remember years ago, that it was suggested that Jack O'Conner (the champion of .270) would have chosen the .284 had it been available when he made his "choice".
That being said, I have a couple of 7mm-08's that i wouldn't trade for the world.. With Federal Supreme factory ammo, loaded with a nosler partition bullet, groups well under 1/2 inch at 100 yds are the norm. My buddy dropped a really nice muley in Wyoming at 400yds with his 7mm-08 back in october with the factory ammo i just mentioned. Also, this bullet will shoot through any animal you point it at in North America. You can imagine what good handloads will do. I did a lot of bowhunting in Idaho in the 90's when i was in the pro archery game. I was hunting with several guys that worked for the department of Interior as government trappers. My ideas on Elk rifles made them laugh. No "magnum's" for this crowd. They shot elk with the same rifles they shot coyotes with, mostly the .243. One buddy had killed most of his elk with the .300 savage. The fact is those super long shots are rarely taken or considered by most hunters.
If you go to "ammoseek.com" you will find a large number of factory 7mm-08 ammo available.. You will find absolutely "ZERO" .284 ammo available.
I'm sure you reload, but you might want to hand the rifle down to the next generation some day.. in this case they would appreciate being able to buy ammo for the rifle.
If you are going to hunt with the rifle, I vote 7mm-08 hands down. The animal you shoot won't be able to tell the small performance difference in what zipped through his vitals!, Plus you will have a rifle for which you can actually buy ammo. This is no small consideration if you ever travel a bit to hunt.
The difference in the 2 is absolutely not worth going with the .284, there are no functional positives when it comes to the hunting rifle being a .284!
Kirk
I remember years ago, that it was suggested that Jack O'Conner (the champion of .270) would have chosen the .284 had it been available when he made his "choice".
That being said, I have a couple of 7mm-08's that i wouldn't trade for the world.. With Federal Supreme factory ammo, loaded with a nosler partition bullet, groups well under 1/2 inch at 100 yds are the norm. My buddy dropped a really nice muley in Wyoming at 400yds with his 7mm-08 back in october with the factory ammo i just mentioned. Also, this bullet will shoot through any animal you point it at in North America. You can imagine what good handloads will do. I did a lot of bowhunting in Idaho in the 90's when i was in the pro archery game. I was hunting with several guys that worked for the department of Interior as government trappers. My ideas on Elk rifles made them laugh. No "magnum's" for this crowd. They shot elk with the same rifles they shot coyotes with, mostly the .243. One buddy had killed most of his elk with the .300 savage. The fact is those super long shots are rarely taken or considered by most hunters.
If you go to "ammoseek.com" you will find a large number of factory 7mm-08 ammo available.. You will find absolutely "ZERO" .284 ammo available.
I'm sure you reload, but you might want to hand the rifle down to the next generation some day.. in this case they would appreciate being able to buy ammo for the rifle.
If you are going to hunt with the rifle, I vote 7mm-08 hands down. The animal you shoot won't be able to tell the small performance difference in what zipped through his vitals!, Plus you will have a rifle for which you can actually buy ammo. This is no small consideration if you ever travel a bit to hunt.
The difference in the 2 is absolutely not worth going with the .284, there are no functional positives when it comes to the hunting rifle being a .284!
Kirk
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JerrySharrett
Senile Member
Carmichels predecessor, Jack O'Conner, was the 270 champion.
We got the long range, 750+ yard Northwest Kansas Whitetails this year with the 26 Nosler, 92 grains of powder fed that monster. Built it on a Bartlein barrel.
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We got the long range, 750+ yard Northwest Kansas Whitetails this year with the 26 Nosler, 92 grains of powder fed that monster. Built it on a Bartlein barrel.
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Pete Wass
Well-known member
I am inclined to agree
All of these points are very reasonable. A friend has a 7mm08 and I have seen some tiny groups he has shot with it @ 100 @ the range, while I was there so I know the round is a great one. I have always favored 7MM for some unknown reason, perhaps because they are not what everybody else has, likely. Not that a 308 wouldn't kill everything on this continent and I have always nearly cringe when 06's are mentioned; they are fine as well, just too, aaaaaah, ah, common I guess.
Regarding bullets; I have shot re-loads at all the deer I have shot over the last couple of decades and used Nosler ballistic tips. I always found they made a lovely dime or nickel sized hole through Whitetails and dropped them either instantly or nearly so. When one considers all the game that has been shot with 38 and 44-40's with old flat nose bullets, wellllllllllll.
Thanks,
Pete
All of these points are very reasonable. A friend has a 7mm08 and I have seen some tiny groups he has shot with it @ 100 @ the range, while I was there so I know the round is a great one. I have always favored 7MM for some unknown reason, perhaps because they are not what everybody else has, likely. Not that a 308 wouldn't kill everything on this continent and I have always nearly cringe when 06's are mentioned; they are fine as well, just too, aaaaaah, ah, common I guess.
Regarding bullets; I have shot re-loads at all the deer I have shot over the last couple of decades and used Nosler ballistic tips. I always found they made a lovely dime or nickel sized hole through Whitetails and dropped them either instantly or nearly so. When one considers all the game that has been shot with 38 and 44-40's with old flat nose bullets, wellllllllllll.
Thanks,
Pete
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Kirk Ethridge
New member
O' Connor
Thanks Jerry, I stand corrected... I had that 30 cal barrel that came off of Jims .308 rail gun that was put on a bag gun & set that record at Oak Ridge a couple years ago on my mind from a conversation earlier in the day . I mean't O'Conner for sure. I know Jim became one of the editors of Outdoor Life after Jack retired correct??.I remember an article by Jim for his 3 favorite rifles (.458 win mag, .280 rem (also named 7mm express for a while), and 338 win mag) . Jack's writing & love of the .270 came when most hunters could or would rarely have more than 1 rifle, many sporter conversions of war surplus rifles like the mauser after WWII. At least thats the way i remember his writings when i was a young kid wanting to hunt deer so bad in the late 60's & early 70's. The lever action rifles were the most prolific during Jack's time & the .270 was just plain an all around better hunting round than most lever guns could handle.
It could also be that the .280rem was the round that was proposed as better than the .270 & O'Conner may have liked it better had it come along sooner, though ballistically they are almost identical & the .284 sticks in my head as the one i remember the writer pondering as Jacks thoughts on the matter??
is the 26 nosler basically a factory version of the 6.5/.284 ballistically? I've never hunted (with rifle) where shots that far could be taken but one time, & my buddy killed a whitetail at 460 yds on that hunt with the same 7mm-08 i mentioned him taking the 400 yd muley with last yr. The 460yd whitetail was on a power line right of way in hickman county by the way. I didn't have any luck on that hunt.
How were you set up for the 750 yd kills? that far away they usually don't even know they are being fired upon..OH, i almost forgot, I took my best whitetail in over 40 yrs of hunting during the 2015 season at around 70yds., the day after Thanksgiving, here behind my house in Hawkins county.My 4 yr old grandson ian begged to go hunting that afternoon at nearly 3p & i decided it wouldn't hurt as it was so warm nothing would be moving anyway, but the buck showed up around 5p., Nearly perfect 10pt that scored 152-6/8 gross, would have been over 160 if the left beam had been identical to the right, the left was just a tad smaller with G4 nearly 4 inches shorter than the right beam. It's still B&C smoke pole rifle after deductions. That unreal mast crop the year before really grew several much above average Hawkins county bucks that season. I'd like to see your kansas bucks? (kirktink@hughes.net) if you have some photo's easy to e-mail.
thanks for the correction.. (i edited the correction into that post as O'Conner)
Kirk
Thanks Jerry, I stand corrected... I had that 30 cal barrel that came off of Jims .308 rail gun that was put on a bag gun & set that record at Oak Ridge a couple years ago on my mind from a conversation earlier in the day . I mean't O'Conner for sure. I know Jim became one of the editors of Outdoor Life after Jack retired correct??.I remember an article by Jim for his 3 favorite rifles (.458 win mag, .280 rem (also named 7mm express for a while), and 338 win mag) . Jack's writing & love of the .270 came when most hunters could or would rarely have more than 1 rifle, many sporter conversions of war surplus rifles like the mauser after WWII. At least thats the way i remember his writings when i was a young kid wanting to hunt deer so bad in the late 60's & early 70's. The lever action rifles were the most prolific during Jack's time & the .270 was just plain an all around better hunting round than most lever guns could handle.
It could also be that the .280rem was the round that was proposed as better than the .270 & O'Conner may have liked it better had it come along sooner, though ballistically they are almost identical & the .284 sticks in my head as the one i remember the writer pondering as Jacks thoughts on the matter??
is the 26 nosler basically a factory version of the 6.5/.284 ballistically? I've never hunted (with rifle) where shots that far could be taken but one time, & my buddy killed a whitetail at 460 yds on that hunt with the same 7mm-08 i mentioned him taking the 400 yd muley with last yr. The 460yd whitetail was on a power line right of way in hickman county by the way. I didn't have any luck on that hunt.
How were you set up for the 750 yd kills? that far away they usually don't even know they are being fired upon..OH, i almost forgot, I took my best whitetail in over 40 yrs of hunting during the 2015 season at around 70yds., the day after Thanksgiving, here behind my house in Hawkins county.My 4 yr old grandson ian begged to go hunting that afternoon at nearly 3p & i decided it wouldn't hurt as it was so warm nothing would be moving anyway, but the buck showed up around 5p., Nearly perfect 10pt that scored 152-6/8 gross, would have been over 160 if the left beam had been identical to the right, the left was just a tad smaller with G4 nearly 4 inches shorter than the right beam. It's still B&C smoke pole rifle after deductions. That unreal mast crop the year before really grew several much above average Hawkins county bucks that season. I'd like to see your kansas bucks? (kirktink@hughes.net) if you have some photo's easy to e-mail.
thanks for the correction.. (i edited the correction into that post as O'Conner)
Kirk
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JerrySharrett
Senile Member
Kirk, on the 270 vs 280 subject, the 280 Remington is marginally superior to the 270 Winchester in several aspects. One-the 280 has slightly more case capacity, Two-the 280 is a true 7mm and in that has available a greater selection and availability of bullets, but, IMO, another advantage is the 280 is available in the much superior action, the Remington 700. True, the Winchester 70 is classic, but Winchester has had 3 revisions of the Mod 70 trying to overcome some of its weaknesses.
When accuracy shooters are building a rifle for benchrest or other projects where maximum accuracy is desired, they use the Remington 700. A good benchrest gunsmith can true a Rem 700 is a short time to where it will, and many times has, equaled custom actions costing much more.
As to the 280 Rem vs the 7mm express. I was fortunate to get one of those when it first came out along with several boxes of factory ammo marked 7 Express Remington.
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When accuracy shooters are building a rifle for benchrest or other projects where maximum accuracy is desired, they use the Remington 700. A good benchrest gunsmith can true a Rem 700 is a short time to where it will, and many times has, equaled custom actions costing much more.
As to the 280 Rem vs the 7mm express. I was fortunate to get one of those when it first came out along with several boxes of factory ammo marked 7 Express Remington.
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JerrySharrett
Senile Member
Oh, I forgot, those 750+ yard deer kills are mostly from a rest of a coat on a truck hood. We zero at 300 and have available a good rangefinder and a printout from WuickLOAD of that bullets trajectory. Nothing like our Eastern 60 yard shots through the brush.
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Kirk Ethridge
New member
Nosler
Pete, try some 140 grain nosler partitions if you do go with a 7mm-08. (they would probably group well out of the .284 for that matter) I was really shocked at how well they grouped. really didn't expect such good groups with that bullet with lead showing on base and point. But they have really impressed me on paper and game to say the least. I always try to double lung shoot deer and the partition bullet had exit wounds closer to the size of a tea-cup. 2 ran around 40 yds though i don't see how with the way the lungs & heart looked. I think we must be brothers from another mother on the 30's. (.308 & 30-06), I had a 308 for a while set up as a sniper rifle & shot 1 group with Federal match ammo & never shot it again before i sold it (I've got nothing against either of them, just never have wanted one bad enough i guess).
The nosler ballistic tips i shot out of the rifle i gave my friend for wiring my shop (predator action/hart barrel 7mm-08 match chamber by PTG Dave Kiff) is one of the best shooting combinations i've ever had in my hands bar none. I'm not kidding when i said i hit x's (10 in a row) on the ibs 200 yd score target with this rifle using bipod and rear bag,,& my buddy is by no means an expert reloader. He bought h380 powder because it was one of the powders listing loads for his 22-250 & 7mm-08 and he really got lucky with his 1st load). & its the same rifle/bullet he killed the whitetail at 460 yds with in middle tn. . I gave him a box of the Federal supreme factory loads to take to Wyoming last fall (with 140 grain nosler partition) & his rifle shot these nearly as good as the handloads. & he took a nice 5x5 muley in wyoming Oct. 1 2016 at 400 yds even, & this deer dropped in its tracks with rear lung/liver shot. His son is stationed in Cheyenne, & this really opened his eyes. One does not gain much but recoil with the larger 7mm rounds. (though i did see those long range pursuit guys on tv take an elk at 1400yds with a 7short mag which i'm sure is a bit out of the 08's range) I talked to Jim Borden before i built my last 7mm-08 as i was using his alpine action. I was considering the 7 short mag. I decided against that one when i learned barrels often shot out by 400 rounds or so. These rifles i built won't be shot nearly that much, but i hope they will stay in the family for a few generations.
I've built a lot of rifles in the 20+yrs i've been doing so. I got into riflesmithing because i hated to wait 6 months or longer to try a new barrel. The last 4 rifles i built as sporter deer rifles as heirlooms for my grandsons. (I only had daughters but am now inundated with male grandchildren, which is fine by me). I also chose to build these rifles in common "factory" chamberings in case i don't live long enough to teach them how to reload for precision shooting. I have been fortunate enough to find factory ammo that will shoot under 1/2 moa in all these rifles (at 100 yds anyway) . (.250 savage becoming harder to find in factory ammo, .300 savage, & 2 7mm-08's). That 250 savage turned out to be an impressive deer killer. A buddy of mine borrowed this rifle for rifle season 3 or 4 yrs in a row and took at least a dozen deer with it, & all but one dropped in their tracks. My eldest grandson took his first buck with this rifle too which dropped like a ton of bricks. (with remington factory ammo no less). I built this one as i didn't want him to become recoil sensitive. this rifle recoils less than a 243 but the 2800fps 100 grain factory load must be one of those magic killer combinations the way it has worked on deer so far. I built the 300 savage because the 30x47 more or less dominated hunter for score shooting . I was not disappointed in it's accuracy either. It groups like a bench gun with custom bullets, we used to make bullets both 6mm, & 30 cal. & the 125grain match bullets shot bug holes. I shot a whitetail with this bullet at around 50 yds & the bullet blew up on the ribs (like my dad predicted) making a really large hide entry wound but not much penetration unfortunately requiring a finishing shot. Randy Robinette never had that problem as he used them out west as his hunting bullet (my die was a copy of his fine die). I doubt he ever shot one as close is my shot however.
enough of my rambling,
have fun with whichever you choose, as long as its the 7mm-08;>)
kirk
Pete, try some 140 grain nosler partitions if you do go with a 7mm-08. (they would probably group well out of the .284 for that matter) I was really shocked at how well they grouped. really didn't expect such good groups with that bullet with lead showing on base and point. But they have really impressed me on paper and game to say the least. I always try to double lung shoot deer and the partition bullet had exit wounds closer to the size of a tea-cup. 2 ran around 40 yds though i don't see how with the way the lungs & heart looked. I think we must be brothers from another mother on the 30's. (.308 & 30-06), I had a 308 for a while set up as a sniper rifle & shot 1 group with Federal match ammo & never shot it again before i sold it (I've got nothing against either of them, just never have wanted one bad enough i guess).
The nosler ballistic tips i shot out of the rifle i gave my friend for wiring my shop (predator action/hart barrel 7mm-08 match chamber by PTG Dave Kiff) is one of the best shooting combinations i've ever had in my hands bar none. I'm not kidding when i said i hit x's (10 in a row) on the ibs 200 yd score target with this rifle using bipod and rear bag,,& my buddy is by no means an expert reloader. He bought h380 powder because it was one of the powders listing loads for his 22-250 & 7mm-08 and he really got lucky with his 1st load). & its the same rifle/bullet he killed the whitetail at 460 yds with in middle tn. . I gave him a box of the Federal supreme factory loads to take to Wyoming last fall (with 140 grain nosler partition) & his rifle shot these nearly as good as the handloads. & he took a nice 5x5 muley in wyoming Oct. 1 2016 at 400 yds even, & this deer dropped in its tracks with rear lung/liver shot. His son is stationed in Cheyenne, & this really opened his eyes. One does not gain much but recoil with the larger 7mm rounds. (though i did see those long range pursuit guys on tv take an elk at 1400yds with a 7short mag which i'm sure is a bit out of the 08's range) I talked to Jim Borden before i built my last 7mm-08 as i was using his alpine action. I was considering the 7 short mag. I decided against that one when i learned barrels often shot out by 400 rounds or so. These rifles i built won't be shot nearly that much, but i hope they will stay in the family for a few generations.
I've built a lot of rifles in the 20+yrs i've been doing so. I got into riflesmithing because i hated to wait 6 months or longer to try a new barrel. The last 4 rifles i built as sporter deer rifles as heirlooms for my grandsons. (I only had daughters but am now inundated with male grandchildren, which is fine by me). I also chose to build these rifles in common "factory" chamberings in case i don't live long enough to teach them how to reload for precision shooting. I have been fortunate enough to find factory ammo that will shoot under 1/2 moa in all these rifles (at 100 yds anyway) . (.250 savage becoming harder to find in factory ammo, .300 savage, & 2 7mm-08's). That 250 savage turned out to be an impressive deer killer. A buddy of mine borrowed this rifle for rifle season 3 or 4 yrs in a row and took at least a dozen deer with it, & all but one dropped in their tracks. My eldest grandson took his first buck with this rifle too which dropped like a ton of bricks. (with remington factory ammo no less). I built this one as i didn't want him to become recoil sensitive. this rifle recoils less than a 243 but the 2800fps 100 grain factory load must be one of those magic killer combinations the way it has worked on deer so far. I built the 300 savage because the 30x47 more or less dominated hunter for score shooting . I was not disappointed in it's accuracy either. It groups like a bench gun with custom bullets, we used to make bullets both 6mm, & 30 cal. & the 125grain match bullets shot bug holes. I shot a whitetail with this bullet at around 50 yds & the bullet blew up on the ribs (like my dad predicted) making a really large hide entry wound but not much penetration unfortunately requiring a finishing shot. Randy Robinette never had that problem as he used them out west as his hunting bullet (my die was a copy of his fine die). I doubt he ever shot one as close is my shot however.
enough of my rambling,
have fun with whichever you choose, as long as its the 7mm-08;>)
kirk
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JerrySharrett
Senile Member
Y'know, we used to think that if a bullet exited that some of the energy of that shot was wasted. My good friend, Ron Reiber Hodgdon's product manager, recently explained the current theory that a bullet should exit to get maximum kill because "it takes out both sides of an animals nervous system"!! Dunno'.
.
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Kirk Ethridge
New member
express
Also, if any of you are praying men, my family could use some. My son in law murdered my(step) daughter about 3 weeks ago, & has been charged with 1st degree murder. The court lowered his bond & he's not in jail. He shot her at least twice with a taurus judge with 45 long colt rounds in the chamber. This is all on high quality surveillance video that they had in their apartment in Church Hill, & the court saw fit to lower his bond from 500k to 250k. I talked to the prosecutors office & they assured me he couldn't bail out...who can come up with that much $ they said.. I told them a retired school teacher (his mom) who bonded him out the next day. Chandra can't bond out so i'm a bit perturbed that he did to say the least. We are currently taking care of her children (the 3 yr old was standing beside her when he shot her) & hope to get custody of him and his 17 yr old brother. The 3 yr old talks about it every day which is heart breaking. He asked me last night "where is my mommy". He also has said my daddy shoot mommy, she fall down & had juice all over her. The real pisser right now is that Steve has control over where Braden lives since he is the only surviving parent! He put Braden with his mother who hardly ever kept him, we kept Braden almost every other week when Gwen was off. She has been nice to a point as we have kept Braden several nights since the incident and he is with me right now. For my wife's sake, i pray we get full custody of him even though we are getting close to 60. (younger than steve's mother though). sorry i didn't get this in it's own thread maybe it can be moved. It is very difficult to speak/type/text of this. This has been much harder on me than losing my mother or my best friend shooting buddy hunting buddy father 11 yrs ago. I'm sure some of you remember dad (Bruce Ethridge) shooting at unaka,
Kirk
Jerry as a side note, I remember hunting with my Weatherby vanguard .270 the year the rounds were called 7mm express. We (my hunting crowd) which were mostly Rogersville High School athletes who were guests at Dr. Bairds farm on cherokee lake stayed in a small cabin that doc built to get us boys out of his house. My .270 had replaced my winchester lever action 30/30. That day when i unloaded my rifle before climbing down from my tree stand, I removed a 7mm express factory round from my .270! I remember looking at the guys ammo the night before but to this day have no idea how it got in my .270 ammo box for me to load in my rifle . I was really glad i didn't see a buck that day as i may have damaged my rifle and me too. I read that the .280 had the shoulder moved a bit forward to prevent loading in the .270, yet i sure had one in mine!... I threw that round out through the woods and really looked my ammo over before loading my rifles ever since. Also, while i remember it, the first year i deer hunted (4 yrs before the above mentioned debacle) , i used my dads remington model 7 30-06 which required the safety to be moved to the fire position before unloading. This was in 1973 or 74. I didn't have the good warm clothes like i do now and my feet were literally freezing by 9:30 or 10am requiring me to go to the house to warm up. I was on the front deck of Dr. Baird's house & had to unload the rifle before going in to warm up. I had the muzzle pointing up at 45 degrees or so and made sure my trigger finger was on the front of the trigger guard so it wouldn't fire when i flipped off the safety. Well needless to say, when i flipped off the safety it fired, kicked into my thigh & nearly scared the crap out of me. One of the Baird boys who was too young to hunt came out to seem me very shaken to say the least. later, my dad tried to get the rifle to drop the firing pin by banging on it & everything he could think of to duplicate my story. Which didn't happen. So i being the 14 yr old nimrod i had to think i had my finger on the trigger for all these years. A couple of months ago, i saw a documentary on this very issue with the remington bolt action rifles. The safety was changed so that it didn't have to be flicked to the fire position to unload the rifle, yet over the years, this very thing has happened resulting in a bunch of injuries and a few deaths (which still could have been prevented had the rifle's muzzle been pointed in a safe direction) . Remington could have fixed the problem early on with Mike Walker's fix, which would have cost .20cents per rifle, but the management felt a recall would be admitting the problem and cause more lawsuits. They have changed the trigger a couple of times now to remedy the problem but never admitted a design flaw. This really gave me a "Redemption" of sorts as i knew darn well i didn't have my finger on the trigger. The only thing is my dad died 10 yrs ago, so i couldn't show him the documentary. I did show it to one of dads good friends, who is now my best friend & it turns out he had one fire when it was in his bronco, with the muzzle on the floor. They had several incidents on video showing the rifle fire when the safety was switched off with nothing near the trigger. Range officers began calling this a "Remington moment". Anyway, i had to share this vindication with someone since dad is gone. I had felt bad about that incident for over 40 yrs!. Now i know it is at least probable that i didn't cause the unwanted firing of the rifle. As a matter of fact i remember that day so well, i know my finger was on the front of the triggerguard as this is where i consciously put my finger for it to be safely away from the trigger which was nearer the rear of the trigger guard and inside it of course. I like to think dad still looks in on me from time to time.
Also, if any of you are praying men, my family could use some. My son in law murdered my(step) daughter about 3 weeks ago, & has been charged with 1st degree murder. The court lowered his bond & he's not in jail. He shot her at least twice with a taurus judge with 45 long colt rounds in the chamber. This is all on high quality surveillance video that they had in their apartment in Church Hill, & the court saw fit to lower his bond from 500k to 250k. I talked to the prosecutors office & they assured me he couldn't bail out...who can come up with that much $ they said.. I told them a retired school teacher (his mom) who bonded him out the next day. Chandra can't bond out so i'm a bit perturbed that he did to say the least. We are currently taking care of her children (the 3 yr old was standing beside her when he shot her) & hope to get custody of him and his 17 yr old brother. The 3 yr old talks about it every day which is heart breaking. He asked me last night "where is my mommy". He also has said my daddy shoot mommy, she fall down & had juice all over her. The real pisser right now is that Steve has control over where Braden lives since he is the only surviving parent! He put Braden with his mother who hardly ever kept him, we kept Braden almost every other week when Gwen was off. She has been nice to a point as we have kept Braden several nights since the incident and he is with me right now. For my wife's sake, i pray we get full custody of him even though we are getting close to 60. (younger than steve's mother though). sorry i didn't get this in it's own thread maybe it can be moved. It is very difficult to speak/type/text of this. This has been much harder on me than losing my mother or my best friend shooting buddy hunting buddy father 11 yrs ago. I'm sure some of you remember dad (Bruce Ethridge) shooting at unaka,
Kirk
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JerrySharrett
Senile Member
Kirk, so sad, tragic. I pray your family will someday overcome.
Yes, I remember your dad Bruce well. We had some good times at those shoots. The first time I shot benchrest at Unaka we had 64 shooters. This last shoot we had 13. Unaka has closed off to us benchrest shooters. I had shot trap there for about 20 years before in "Round Robin" leagues.
On a lighter note where you unloaded the "slam-fire" hopefully you learned that from Bruce or the Tennessee required hunter safety program.
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Yes, I remember your dad Bruce well. We had some good times at those shoots. The first time I shot benchrest at Unaka we had 64 shooters. This last shoot we had 13. Unaka has closed off to us benchrest shooters. I had shot trap there for about 20 years before in "Round Robin" leagues.
On a lighter note where you unloaded the "slam-fire" hopefully you learned that from Bruce or the Tennessee required hunter safety program.
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JerrySharrett
Senile Member
As to the Remington 700 safety issue we always replace the factory trigger with one of the much better aftermarket triggers. Adds a few bucks to the setup but makes a much better shooting rifle.
Poor Mr Walker. They drug him into court when he was 97-98 years old and been out of the Remington Custom Shop for decades. Bunch of blood thirsty lawyers I guess?
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Poor Mr Walker. They drug him into court when he was 97-98 years old and been out of the Remington Custom Shop for decades. Bunch of blood thirsty lawyers I guess?
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Kirk Ethridge
New member
hunter safety
I learned gun safety from dad (Bruce). This was a most serious issue with dad as myself and brother learned to respect firearms. My creedo to this day is that every gun is "loaded". This safety deal happened before the hunter safety course program through twra was offered. I did take the hunter safety course the first time it was offered in Rogersville. I don't remember the year. I enjoyed the course very much as i recall. the only thing i didn't like was the field day where we shot at 3 clay pigeons with a .410 shotgun at the Morristown trap club. I along with most the others missed all 3. My dad didn't believe in starting kids out with these small popguns. He felt the pellet number advantage of the 12 gauge was more important than recoil,,ie it's easier to make a kill or bust a clay pigeon with the 12 gauge than the .410 as i'm sure most will agree. He felt giving us boys the best chance of hitting the target was the most important part of the choice in shotgun gauge (rather than recoil) . Our first hunting experience was for squirrel then dove when around 10yrs old.. I learned to shoot shotgun on a 12 gauge belgian browning that bruised my shoulder something awful.. we shot clay pigeons frequently from a portable trap that i have until this day. It was a real thrill to "dust" a clay pigeon and imagine it was a dove or quail. These are some of my fondest childhood memories. My dad was really an awesome trap shooter. I saw him run 100 in a row many times in Morristown. I never did get as good as dad with the shotgun. my best was 22 or 23 out of 25 on my best day with a browning recoiless trap gun i bought just to shoot with dad. We learned at an early age what a gun can do to a body. back in the 60's groundhog shooting was something dad did frequently bringing us boys along to watch (years before we ever were allowed to shoot any gun) , and retrieve any shot whistle pigs. The results i saw in the groundhogs shot with dad's 220 swift helped us realize what the stakes are when a gun is fired. I try to instill these same values in my grandsons that are just starting to shoot. Seeing and touching a gun killed animal makes the weapons real power known. Once the gun is fired, there is no getting the bullet back, so the muzzle must always be pointing in the most safe direction. My oldest grandson Liam is a natural with a shotgun. I bought a case of clay pigeons so he could practice a bit before field day.. I shot the first 15 to show him how it was done, (i think i hit 6 or so). Liam busted all 15 when his turn came & he had never even shot a shotgun before! He really showed up his papaw as he showed me how it was done. I took him to field day at Unaka. There were an extremely large number of people there. The line Liam was in shot a 20 gauge. It was really windy and the pigeons were dancing around like a snipe. Liam hit all 3 anyway and i only saw 2 other grown men hit all 3 that day and i watched a large number of people take the 3 shot fun test. Needless to say i am proud of him especially all that saw him that day. Since i was his teacher, I took a lot of praise, but in reality Liam is a natural & didn't learn anything but "theory" from his papaw Kirk.
I learned gun safety from dad (Bruce). This was a most serious issue with dad as myself and brother learned to respect firearms. My creedo to this day is that every gun is "loaded". This safety deal happened before the hunter safety course program through twra was offered. I did take the hunter safety course the first time it was offered in Rogersville. I don't remember the year. I enjoyed the course very much as i recall. the only thing i didn't like was the field day where we shot at 3 clay pigeons with a .410 shotgun at the Morristown trap club. I along with most the others missed all 3. My dad didn't believe in starting kids out with these small popguns. He felt the pellet number advantage of the 12 gauge was more important than recoil,,ie it's easier to make a kill or bust a clay pigeon with the 12 gauge than the .410 as i'm sure most will agree. He felt giving us boys the best chance of hitting the target was the most important part of the choice in shotgun gauge (rather than recoil) . Our first hunting experience was for squirrel then dove when around 10yrs old.. I learned to shoot shotgun on a 12 gauge belgian browning that bruised my shoulder something awful.. we shot clay pigeons frequently from a portable trap that i have until this day. It was a real thrill to "dust" a clay pigeon and imagine it was a dove or quail. These are some of my fondest childhood memories. My dad was really an awesome trap shooter. I saw him run 100 in a row many times in Morristown. I never did get as good as dad with the shotgun. my best was 22 or 23 out of 25 on my best day with a browning recoiless trap gun i bought just to shoot with dad. We learned at an early age what a gun can do to a body. back in the 60's groundhog shooting was something dad did frequently bringing us boys along to watch (years before we ever were allowed to shoot any gun) , and retrieve any shot whistle pigs. The results i saw in the groundhogs shot with dad's 220 swift helped us realize what the stakes are when a gun is fired. I try to instill these same values in my grandsons that are just starting to shoot. Seeing and touching a gun killed animal makes the weapons real power known. Once the gun is fired, there is no getting the bullet back, so the muzzle must always be pointing in the most safe direction. My oldest grandson Liam is a natural with a shotgun. I bought a case of clay pigeons so he could practice a bit before field day.. I shot the first 15 to show him how it was done, (i think i hit 6 or so). Liam busted all 15 when his turn came & he had never even shot a shotgun before! He really showed up his papaw as he showed me how it was done. I took him to field day at Unaka. There were an extremely large number of people there. The line Liam was in shot a 20 gauge. It was really windy and the pigeons were dancing around like a snipe. Liam hit all 3 anyway and i only saw 2 other grown men hit all 3 that day and i watched a large number of people take the 3 shot fun test. Needless to say i am proud of him especially all that saw him that day. Since i was his teacher, I took a lot of praise, but in reality Liam is a natural & didn't learn anything but "theory" from his papaw Kirk.
S
scott mims
Guest
Prayers coming your way