Gulf Coast Region Proposal For Slight Change In Varmint For Score

jackie schmidt said:
Ray,although you probably know, others might not. The name "varmint for score" comes from the fact that you shoot it with a legal NBRSA Heavy Varmint Rifle. It is not supposed to designate any actual field use such as what a live varmint rifle is subjected to....jackie
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Yes, but the founders had no inkling of something like the 30BR. Actually there is some memory bouncing around in my brain about one of the classes specified 6mm or larger to keep the 222 from having two classes to dominate. Is that the Heavy part ???? You could shoot a 22 in a Light Varmint but the HV had to be 6mm or larger? This of course was group shooting.

Just rereading your post, Didn't VFS mean that LV and HV could shoot ?
 
Jerry Reisdorff said:
In your argument for change you say “To see the difference that wiping out the "x" would make, take a look at some of your aggs. I looked at my targets from the last match at Lake Charles, where I hit 33 "x's in the Grand Agg, and by the wipeout system, I would have only hit 18. That is a BIG difference.”

But don’t have enough metrics to prove your point. IMO you need to re score the top 5 or more shooters targets to see if the position of winners change based on your argument.

So - while you are at this why not change the X to a 10 and the 10 to a 9 ….. and see if that changes any but the score.

Jerry
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Jerry,
To me, the benefit of a more difficult scoring system is not so much in who wins, but by what criterion they win. Currently, the Creedmoor tie breaker gets used alot, particularly at big matches. Take, for instance, the June Buckcreek match, which had 29 shooters, so 58 positions total to be decided for the 100 and 200 yard events. Of these 58 positions, 24 were decided by Creedmoor. In other words, almost half were decided by what amounts to luck of the draw. If NBRSA wants to put more emphasis on determining wins by accuracy rather than luck, then worst edge scoring (or something similar) would accomplish that. Tie breakers would still be needed, but a lot less often.

Cheers,
Keith
 
crb said:
Forget changing the current VFS format except maybe the name.
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Good point. "Varmint for Score" conjures images of groundhogs and prairie dogs racing around a field with a nerf football.:eek: How about Bull Shooting? (There is evidence for the appropriateness of this name in the picture of Dan at Buckcreek this past weekend.:D)

Cheers,
Keith
 
Bingo, Keith. You just said exactly what our Region proposal intends to fix. And, a simple "slight adjustment" in the scoring by making it mandatory to wipe the X out would make a dramatic change. Every thing else would stay as it is.

Several Shooters have stated that "nothing is broken". Well, the facts that you just presented shoe that something is indeed broken, and coule easilly be fixed........jackie
 
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FBecigneul said:
As it is written now in IBS, the wipe out count is the tie breaker if everything else is the same after five matches..
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Francis
You are 100% incorrect on that statement and I really wish you would refrain from saying it as we have discussed this before.

In IBS registered matches If everything is the same after 5 matches it is a tie. The use of wipeouts as a scoring method is not authorized for Range level scoring it is only authorized for use by the Records committee.

I was going to stay out of this discussion since it is an NBRSA matter but since I have made one comment let me simply add a couple of points. While X counts at IBS score matches are very high it is downright surprising how few people are shooting 250-25x and the 1st X dropped works well 99.9% of the time. Also as a person who has scored a few thousand targets in 25 years I find it hard enough to deal with simply is the dot being touched or not and I think evaluating as to if dot is completely taken out is going to be very subjective and put a lot more work on your scorers and possibly create more problems than it corrects.

Dick Grosbier
IBS Vice President
 
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bs....bring a gun , pick your caliber and take your chances.....
plain and simple......
the world is not fair, learn to deal with it.

how do we compensate the 30 shooters for the recoil they put up with over the 22's ?
how do we compensate the 6 shooters for the recoil they put up with over the 22 shooters???

the world is not fair. build a gun shoot it and move on??
( this has been tried in across the course shooting and it failed miserably)

mike in co
 
Ray, after reading your post, I have a feeling that you do not shoot 100-200 Centerfire Benchrest, either Group or Score.

Every Benchrest Shooter I have ever known knows about the 6mm rule in Sporter, that being a legal NBRSA-IBS Sporter must be .23 caliber or larger, which is the only difference between it and a legal Light Varmint. The only difference between a legal Light Varmint and a legal Heavy Varmint is 3 pounds of weight.

Both Sanctioning Bodies have simply stated that Varmint for Score can be fired with any Rifle that is legal to be fired in class Heavy Varmint. the IBS does keep records for Light Varmint Rifles, but you compete heads up with Heavy Varmint Rifles.

Do not get me wrong, if you are not a Registered Match Shooter and a member of either organization, this in no way disqualifies you from entering into this discussion. But to us Registered Match Shooters, this is serious business, and we like to approach things from a standpoint of thorough knowledge regarding the situation being discussed.........jackie
 
jackie schmidt said:
Ray, after reading your post, I have a feeling that you do not shoot 100-200 Centerfire Benchrest, either Group or Score.
.....jackie
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Jackie, I'm just a club match shooter and will never enter a registered CF match for a variety of reasons, mostly physical health reasons. This means I don't have to deal with LV vs HV at every match. Just bring my HV 30BR and shoot whether it's a score month or group month. This is why my memory is not sharp on the caliber requirements of Sporter vs LV vs HV. Actually I'm amazed that I remembered it at all :)

What I WOULD like is a new score match format along with a new target that I could shoot my 6mm in and be competitive. The current VFS is what it is and IMO will be impossible to change. Since RBGC shoots a 100/200 match every month we don't have any issues with ties at the end of the day. Ties on yardage aggs, yes. Ties on Grand Agg, no. No ties in the 3 years I've been competing iirc.
 
Ray,it has taken what amounts to an act of God to even get the NBRSA give us the probationary trial on Varmint for Score that we are in at this time. I am only hoping that the participation will be high enough, (along with new members), for the BOD TO see fit IN institutIing it as a permanent Format.

Heck, I am considering putting the 6PPC away and just shooting a 30BR in all classes. This depends on whether I can get the 10.5 pound Rifle up to standard........jackie
 
I remember the things you guys went through to get NBRSA to try VFS. I remember the discussion then about changing the target or the scoring. The vast majority don't want any changes at all. I would like a bit different challenge but a nationally recognized target so I can compare my results to others around the country.
 
mks said:
George,
I think I counted right... Before Creedmoor, there were ties at 100 yards for positions 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 17 and 18. At 200 yards there were ties for positions 5, 6, 9, 10, 11, 13, 14, 16, 17, 21 and 22. Any one interested can check at http://internationalbenchrest.com/results/score/2010/BuckCreek/619/bc619.php

Cheers,
Keith[/QUOTE
Keith. You do bring up an interesting point. But, even with that many ties, 1st place at 100 was a clear cut win. At 200 you need to look down to 5th place before you see a tie.And for the grand agg, you got to go all the way down to 8th place before there is a tie. Jackie
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jackie ...

jackie schmidt said:
You are aware that there is a very influential faction in the NBRSA that will openly fight this entire thing. Just because they never come onto these Forums and discuss it does not mean that they are not working behind the scenes to keep NBRSA a Group Format organization, with HBR as the only Score Format.
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If the GROUPIES decided that VFS is not going to become an NBRSA format I guess nothing prevents a club from dropping the NBRSA moniker and moving under the IBS banner.

If they don't want to create a classification that a large group of shooters enjoy, and have recently built rifles specifically for that purpose, then the thing to do is to go where one is welcomed. :)
 
How about reducing the size (diameter) of the scoring rings to include the diameter of the bull, i.e. a full 10 scoring rings in the same size target. Just an idea of course.
Mark
 
After rummaging thru the sofa I found 2 cents...and thought I would put in my 2 pennies..:D
I have to agree with Dick G. I have shot and scored my share of Hunter Rifle targets since 1976...and yes it is hard to determine best edge scoring on Xs...we have used plugs, bullets and now optical scoring rings...but it is just as difficult to score a close 10 as it is to score a close X...and for that matter any best edge near a scoring ring or X dot...changing a rule requring a complete removal of the X dot could also be applied to complete severing of a scoring ring before the the shooters gets that next higher score...that being said I am convinced that requiring a wipeout solves a problem that doesn't exsist...It is accepted that a bullet leaves a smaller diameter hole than its actual diameter...so in all fairness we should give the shooter what he has earned...Change for the sake of change only ads issues to deal with..I fail to see why it is a bad thing for a shooter to get a 250-??xs..I for one want to have the pride in seeing a high score and X count...it is something a shooter needs to build pride and confidence...Group shooting has more bugs in their measuring that does Score shooting...I know for a fact that 3 men measuring one target with the same calipers will most likely get 3 different measurements...I don't hear of mandates to change group measuring..because it has its inherent variation...
Oops I think I spent my 2 cents several sentences ago...

Eddie in Texas
 
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Jackie
I have a question on what a wipe out is. Does the dot have to be completely gone off of the paper? russell m.
I shot this weekend with Jackie & by my calculations I would have placed 4 times if I would have been shooting a 30. I wasn't. I was shooting my 6 because thats all I have & I love to shoot & love the competition. I don't think the targets need to be change I need to shoot better or build a 30.
Changing to the wipe out format is irrelevant at this time because the of lack of shooters. But hopefully that will change. I got into this sport as it was dieing. I would love to go to matches where there are 75+ shooters. I hope the VFS goes in that direction If it does then the wipe out format would push me even harder to do better & would be needed.
I also shoot group & would love to see more shooters there to but I feel that shooting extreme accuracy has gotten to expensive. We may pick up a few shooters along the way but when they don't win anything after a few matches you don't see them again. russell m
 
JackieStogsdill said:
Keith. You do bring up an interesting point. But, even with that many ties, 1st place at 100 was a clear cut win. At 200 you need to look down to 5th place before you see a tie.And for the grand agg, you got to go all the way down to 8th place before there is a tie. Jackie
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Jackie,
You got me wondering about how likely ties are in the top spots. Looking back through the last dozen reports for 100 yard VFS matches on the IBS website, the matches varied from 10 to 26 shooters, and 85 of 209 total positions were decided by Creedmoor. The highest tied position was first place 4 times, second place 4 times, fourth place once, 11th place once and 12th place once. One match had no ties. The larger matches had more ties. For instance, the July Muncy match had 20 ties among 26 shooters.

If these statistics hold, then it looks like just over 40% of the positions at 100 yards are decided by Creedmoor and there is a one in three chance of Creedmoor deciding first or second place. This is to be expected when most of the scores are between about 250-13x and 250-22x. That range has ten increments, so with more than ten shooters, it's hard not to have ties.

200 yards has fewer ties because only a few score 250. That gives lots more increments of scores to separate the shooters.

Sorry for being so mathematical. I can't help myself, that's the way I think.;)

Cheers,
Keith
 
Years ago when the hunter 200 target was changed was the golden opportunity to permanently fix the close score problem. What should have been done was to take the existing 100 target, make it the 200 and half scale that for 100. This could provide a lot less ties and a better separation of placements.
 
Keith, if we ever get in a mathematical match, will you be my partner? See ya at Wilmore this weekend, hopefully.
 
JackieStogsdill said:
Keith, if we ever get in a mathematical match, will you be my partner? See ya at Wilmore this weekend, hopefully.
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I'll do the math if you teach me how to shoot!;) How many clicks up for 300? They say the 30BR will reach 300 yards, but I don't know if my scope has enough clicks in it!:eek: I'll keep my fingers crossed for cool weather.

Cheers,
Keith
 
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