Gulf Coast Region Proposal For Slight Change In Varmint For Score

25 Wipeouts:

I think it can be done but it would require a perfectly tuned rifle, a perfect read of the conditions 25 times and the perfect execution of the shot 25 times; isn't likely to happen with a Bag Gun. Of course, there is always "Chance" and "Chance" is something other than perfection.

I believe if Worst Edge Scoring were instituted, the attendance of VFS would decline. If some folks can't shoot 250's often, many of them won't want to do it, otherwise many of them would still be shooting their 6 PPC's.
 
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I shot my first ARA RF match last month and it was interesting. Although it's worst edge scoring, the ARA target is pretty forgiving around the center. Once you have a bit of an opps it goes downhill fast, 100, 50, 25, 10, iirc.

I don't think many people would vote for worst edge scoring in CF score shooting. IMO, the only way any scoring or target change would happen is if an entirely new Sanctioning Org was started. The chance for this is about zero as we have more orgs than we need right now. RF seems to have multiple successful orgs....

It should be possible for one of the existing orgs to create a brand new class. Giving the 6s and 22s their own score target and class seems like a no brainer to me, especially at the club level. Right now they just contribute to the payout with no real chance of winning money [ RBGC pays 50% back ]. Of course the grand agg top finishers would not appreciate their take being reduced :)
 
It can be done but its sure isn't going to be easy and I've never heard anyone say I won't get this x because I don't need it to win. :) steve
 
I've been shooting VFS for 6-7 years IIRC. I shoot two matches per month from April thru October. In all that time, I've seen two 250-25X scores (and by the same competitor). One of them was rejected by the IBS scoring committee. While I agree with JS that the time to do the rules correctly is to do so at the beginning and the NBRSA has a chance to do it right, I see nothing wrong with the scoring as it currently stands with the IBS. This was all discussed at length last year and it is no more a problem now than it was then. The current scoring isn't broken and doesn't need fixing. BTW- Any group shooter that thinks score isn't real BENCHREST is welcome to come to Buck Creek or Gallatin and show us how it's done.

Rick
 
Rick, good points. I believe that there is a missconception among many Group Shooters that what Varmint for Score is meant to be is some sort of entry level game, perhaps enticing shooters who participate in that "easy game" to be willing to step into the "more difficult' Group Format.

Well, I shoot both, and I have won at both, and I have been THOROUGHLY beaten in both.:D In my opinion,if you actually desire to win, one is no more difficult than the other. Both have a unique aspect that makes winning very difficult. Both require a Rifle that is tuned into that magic "sub .200" range, and both require the utmost in attention to detail and shooter skill.

What this entire exercise is about is the NBRSA offer a Score Foremat to be shot with the same Rifles that are used in Group. In other words, the "most accurate Rifles on the Planet". Many shooters want to shoot score, and the NBRSA has joined the ranks of the Organizations in giving these shooters, (and clubs), the opportunity to do it under the Sanction of the NBRSA.

Also, many Clubs want to shoot Score. It is no big secret that putting on a score match is easier on the Club than a group match. About all you need is something to nail targets to.

The NBRSA needs members. It is foolish to ignore an entire group of extreme accuracy shooters who will show up and shoot if you give them the opportunity. And, their accomplishments will be recognized and certified by one of the premier Sanctioning Bodies in shooting.

In truth, I am neither for, or against, what Scott Hunter, (Region Director), is talking about. I am going to shoot no matter what. If for some reason they decided to institute worst edge scoring, (very doubtful), I would start building a 22 caliber tommorrow. If they use the exact same rules as the IBS, I will be shooting. The object is to be competitive at the highest level of Rifle precision and accuracy, competing under a set of rules set forth by a Sanctioning Body.........jackie
 
I don't really have a dog in this fight, yet. ( I do have a 30BR but I'm not shooting centerfire score at the 100/200 range just yet). But, looks like the NBRSA rules need to be set up to match the IBS rules. After all the IBS started this centerfire score shooting game. If you get a tower of Babble rule mix it will just hurt both games participation.
 
jackie ...

With all due consideration, let's slow it down a bit. It seems way premature to be making proposals to VFS scoring when some clubs haven't even held their first VFS registered match [Central Texas Benchrest Shooters at Dietz Range in New Braunfels won't be holding their first match until August 22nd].

And, having held only one or two VFS registered matches doesn't seem to be enough time to be proposing changes when the initial [experimental] year is hardly half over.

Let's give this TEST a sufficient time to evolve, say another 18 to 24 months. The NBRSA membership hasn't even had a vote to see if this venture should even be adopted as an official format, and I wouldn't expect that to happen for at least another 6 months at the very least.

Let's listen to the guys who've been shooting this format for years express their thoughts and study the current [IBS] rules before proposing something well before its time. :)
 
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Art, The NBRSA Board of Directors will be voting on the issue in September at the annual meeting, and it can go before the membership a few days later at the annual membership meeting.

We don't have 18 to 24 months. And, as with most things involved when dealing with an organization, it is best to have all of your ducks in line well before hand. That is why we pushed to make the Tomball Varmint for Score Match a success, we had a reasonably good turnout, not what we wanted. It would have nice to see 50 shooters.

You are aware that there is a very influential faction in the NBRSA that will openly fight this entire thing. Just because they never come onto these Forums and discuss it does not mean that they are not working behind the scenes to keep NBRSA a Group Format organization, with HBR as the only Score Format.

If that is what the organization wishes to do, I will continue with our Club Matches, and make a few IBS events, while devoting the bulk of my time shooting NBRSA Group........jackie
 
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That's a 3/4" group that is still considered "perfect".
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That's a big crock of....

Take a gun that's shooting a 3/4" group to a score match and see how well you do. :rolleyes:

Leave the present format alone. We're just not seeing a glut of 25X scores, until then there's no need to make drastic changes.
 
goodgrouper said:
Speaking of Gallatin, I looked up the scores in the last P.S. magazine I had (november 2009) and found the following quote from the Gallatin report: " a 500 score (perfect score) got you fourth place! There were 18 shooters and they turned in 15 250 scores at 100 yards and 5 250 scores at 200 yards". End quote.

Looking at the equipment list, I see five guys with perfect 500's, two with 499's, three with 498's, and two with 497's.
So from what I gather, this looks more like pro bowling in which the guy who loses is the guy who misses one pin on one frame. Again, I'm not saying it's easy. It just looks that way in the literature, and for some guys, literature is the only thing they can go off of because there is no VFS in lots of parts of the country.
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GG, I was one of the ones that missed a pin on one frame and had to settle for a 499-? at that match. Score is a tough game that doesn't forgive mistakes, big or small very often, especially not early. I won the 100 yard portion of the match by virtue of a tiebreaker. If you look at the scores, Jim Wooten and I had identical scores all the way through the 100 yard agg. The tiebreaker is to go back and look at each target and see what # bull an x was dropped on first. The match report doesn't show that much detail, but there is a systematic tie breaker for such an event. It may not be perfect, but it is fair. Now for the grand, I came in 5th, with a 499-28x. There were actually 5 people with better x counts in the grand, but again, someone else screwed the pooch and dropped more points than I did, moving them down the list but with a very good x count. This is why score is so hard. It doesn't forgive mistakes. Isn't that what perfection is all about? You screw up, and you pay the price. I know cause I screw up alot.--Mike Ezell
 
goodgrouper said:
Further literature I've found on the subject comes from Glen Newicks book. Quote from page 124: "Ron Hoehn has vocalized a similar solution to what many of us have been thinking. On the current 100 yard target, a shot can miss by as much as 3/8" in any direction and still be a ten. That's a 3/4" group that is still considered "perfect". I don't believe this is right. The target is completely out of proportion to the ability of the rifle, why don't we change the the target, make it more challenging, and bring back some of the fun of Hunter class.
...............(speaking of VFS IBS)..A [it's a] popular class for many who like to shoot nice scores, it's run into the same problem the classic hunter class has run into. The rifle capability is way out of whack with the difficulty of the target. I've only competed in the varmint for score class on six occasions. Each time I fired a "perfect" 250. There's something wrong when every time out a "perfect" score is achieved. I've stopped shooting the class since it has no meaning. With the option of shooting a varmint for score match, or to go practice, I would rather shoot groups; something which has some challenge." End quote.


Again, I'm not saying it's easy. I just showing what others who have tried it have said. Me, I'd still like to try it at least once.:)
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Did he win all of those matches? If he had perfect scores, then the answer would be yes,along with six new world records of 250-25 with 25 wipeouts. 250 is not perfect. It is a prerequisite to be in contention though as most of the top shooters will have 250 and something(x's). The x count is what will usually determine the winner. Not really much different than a tiny 10 ring would.--Mike Ezell
 
Goodgrouper said....
"Looking at the equipment list, I see four guys with perfect 500's, two with 499's, three with 498's, and two with 497's. "

GG,
If you think that a 250 or even a 500 is a "perfect" score, then you are clearly not familar with score shooting. A 250 @ 100 yds is only the qualifier that gets you in the door to compete for the win. A 500 for the grand is much better, but even so, it is far from "perfect". It's the "X" count that matters. If you missed a 10 ring even once, you are out of the running for the win @ 100 and even the Grand is in jeopardy. A missed 10 @ 200 yds may not get you a loss, but you're on the edge. A perfect score is 250 - 25X . That is only done a few times in most years @ 100 yds and not always even once. A 250-25X has never been shot @ 200 yds.

Rick
 
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If you've ever been holding off about a bullet hole and a half, and had the bullet hit where you were holding....you just shot a 9. I wouldn't assume that 10's are a given.--Mike
 
goodgrouper said:
I thought I made that perfectly clear? I'm a simple group shooter remember? But I do understand that it's only the X's that count. That was the whole point. You need to get X's because almost everyone has a perfect score?
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Actually, it wasn't clear, since a 250 and/or 500 aren't perfect scores. You just repeated someone elses mistake. No problem, but If you want a more accurate picture you can go to the IBS website and look at the results page for score shoots. 250's are common @ 100 yds, but not so much @ 200yds. Typically, for the two ranges where Mike & I shoot, there are usually no more than two or three 500 scores for the GA and not always that.

Rick
 
In your argument for change you say “To see the difference that wiping out the "x" would make, take a look at some of your aggs. I looked at my targets from the last match at Lake Charles, where I hit 33 "x's in the Grand Agg, and by the wipeout system, I would have only hit 18. That is a BIG difference.”

But don’t have enough metrics to prove your point. IMO you need to re score the top 5 or more shooters targets to see if the position of winners change based on your argument.

So - while you are at this why not change the X to a 10 and the 10 to a 9 ….. and see if that changes any but the score.

Jerry
 
Forget changing the current VFS format except maybe the name. NBRSA could call it Unlimited Score and allow any caliber up to .45. Then come up with a new target and a new event, Varmint For Score. Real varmint calibers, 6mm and smaller.

Since it would be a new event you could start right off with worst edge scoring. Maybe even have the perfect score be a 2500 like some of the RF targets. Not saying I would prefer 100 point center dot/ring, just throwing out ideas. It still seems like a good idea to give the 6's and 22's their own match and a completely new target to shoot at would be great as I like new challenges.

Maybe even a new concept in targets. How about straight lines instead of rings ?

Or 5 varmints instead of 5 bulls. Head shot is 10 or 5. 100 yd 10 ring would be 1/4". If you don't touch the 1/4" ring you score a 5. Wipeout for X. Body shot has rings from 9 on down. 9 ring would be 1/2 at 100. Best edge scoring for this target. A strategy game would be fun.

Something totally brand new.
 
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Ray,although you probably know, others might not. The name "varmint for score" comes from the fact that you shoot it with a legal NBRSA Heavy Varmint Rifle. It is not supposed to designate any actual field use such as what a live varmint rifle is subjected to.

In fact, Benchrest is Accuracy strictly for the sake of Accuracy. No other perameters that the rest of the World uses to define Rifle performance enters into the picture.........jackie
 
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