Feedback From The Tunnel

Wow, nice group!

A good example that outliers can happen at any time, and they can be shots that produce really large groups, which are pretty obvious, or they can produce small groups that are less so. Statistics tells us that large sample size reduces the effects of outliers because the results are averaged over more shots.

Ok Keith, I think we all understand what you're saying about statistical significance BUT(I bet you knew that word was coming ;)), I've fired a BUNCH of groups with my tuners and have established, by a very statistically significant number of rounds fired, groups, barrels, and rifles, that a clear pattern emerges. Enough so, that I'm confident in how far to move my tuner, based on group size and shape. No different than tuning with powder charge and seating depth...you see groups get larger or smaller with changes and even see group shape come into play as well, with either method. While maybe imperfect, tuning a rifle's group size and shape by adjusting powder charge or seating depth, works, and has for as long as we've been shooting.

Using a tuner is not really different at all except, if anything, tuner changes are easier to see on the target than powder changes, and are infinitely adjustable and more precise than most powder measures, allowing one to really fine tune the tune...at the bench.

Once a good load in a barrel is established, you can keep that same load shooting with a tuner or you can load at the range to accomplish mostly the same thing.

If statistical significance is the issue, then it applies to both methods of tuning, equally.
 
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Wow, nice group!

A good example that outliers can happen at any time, and they can be shots that produce really large groups, which are pretty obvious, or they can produce small groups that are less so. Statistics tells us that large sample size reduces the effects of outliers because the results are averaged over more shots.

Hi Keith,

If your email addy is correct on this site, I've sent you a document.

Landy
 
Gene - explain a little further about seating "off the lands". You wrote that "on the lands" caused concern about neck tension and I've thought all along that it was the very opposite. Help me out on this one please sir.

Doesn't have to be Gene that explains the deal....!
 
Gene - explain a little further about seating "off the lands". You wrote that "on the lands" caused concern about neck tension and I've thought all along that it was the very opposite. Help me out on this one please sir.

Doesn't have to be Gene that explains the deal....!


Wilbur, it's been said for years that N133 likes heavy neck tension. Many experienced shooters say they know only one seating depth and that is hard into the lands with heavy neck tension. If you seat bullets out that far and there is any variation in neck tension from one case to the other, those with lighter tension will not be seated as deep into the lands as those with heavier tension. I've tried every imaginable method of bullet seating in the tunnel and the one I describe as 'just off the lands' has always proved best. Neck tension with that method is not critical. As long as it feels good and holds the bullets firm enough so they don't move with normal handling, you're good to go. It also removes any concern about extracting a loaded round if a 'cease fire' is called.

Many years ago, Harold Broughton clued me in on a bullet seating method that he learned from Red Corneilson. He did not mention what it was called but I've always called it a 'slip neck' or sometimes a 'step neck.'The way it works is by turning your cases only partially down the length so that when fire formed, there will be a 'step' left for the bullet to sit on. Bullets are seated by hand and can be freely rotated in the neck with fingers. The 'jump' to the lands is determined by how far down you turn the necks. I have found how far the bullets 'jump' is not important as long as they are not touching the lands.
With the 'step neck' seating depth means nothing! The explosion of the primer seats the bullet hard into the lands where it stops until the powder burn gets going and chamber pressure rises sufficiently to start the bullet down the bore.

You would be amazed how easy the 'step neck' is to use but if you are one that picks up a loaded round by the bullet, you will surely make a mess with spilled powder. I have never had a problem loading the rifle using the 'slip neck' but I've seen others that have. I do not normally recommend it to others; use it at your own risk, but I assure you, there is not a more accurate method out there for short range group shooting.

Later

Gene Beggs
 
match 5

I'm sorry! I got distracted and off course with this. But if you'll stay with me I think I can help you after I quit laughing!

Anyway,,,, back to the five match agg we were shooting. We got through the first three trips to the line in good shape and are now at the top of the leader board with a teen agg! The cases are loaded, we're just waiting for relay three to finish and for the range officer to say, "Relay one, shooters to the line!"

When we started match number one, temp was 60 degrees, tuner was set to 'zero.' After fouling shots and scope adjustment, our first three shot test group was not good, indicating the rifle was out of tune. Maybe not completely out but not what we wanted so the tuner was moved one mark in one direction or the other, I forget which way but that made it worse so we went back to zero and then moved the tuner one mark in the other direction. The next test group was smaller but still had a little vertical. One more mark in same direction and the rifle shot a dot!
So we were in tune with the tuner set to 2 marks 'in' from zero with a temp of 60 degrees. Match one went well.

Things were moving slow with the target crew and by the time the range officer called relay one back to the line for our second match, temp had increased to 70 degrees. My instincts were to bring the tuner 'in' one mark to compensate for the ten degree increase in temp but we decided to leave it where it was and accept maybe a little vertical as the wind had picked up and the group was likely to print more horizontal than vertical anyway. It was a good decision and although the group did indeed measure slightly vertical it was still a good group.

For match number 3, temp was up to 80 degrees so we definitely had to make a tuner adjustment. In match number two, it would have been better if we had turned the tuner 'in' one mark which would have removed the bit of vertical which was reflected on the target. Two marks 'in'' brought the rifle in tune and match 3 moved us into first place.


So here we are awaiting the range officer's call to the line for match number 4. Cases are loaded with exactly the same load used in match number one, tuner is set to four marks 'in' from zero.

Match 4 The range officer calls, "Relay 1 shooters to the line.

Winds have picked up some but temp remains 80 degrees. A two mark 'in' adjustment was made after match 3; one to correct for the ten degree increase from 60 to 70 degrees and another to compensate for the additional increase to 80 degrees. Tuner is now set to 4 marks 'in.' The test group on the sighter verifies that the rifle is in tune so we settle in to watch conditions and decide when to begin shooting. Six minutes remain in which to shoot our five record shots. Winds have been waltzing back and forth from one direction to the other with velocity slowing, becoming all but calm during the switch from one direction to the other. We know this pattern will repeat two or three times during the remaining six minutes so we will be ready when the next lull appears and machine gun our five record shots before wind picks up after the switch.

Sure enough, wind velocity is beginning to let up and comes almost to a standstill as the flag vanes meander about during the switch. This is what we've been waiting for; GO FOR IT! Shoot quickly but carefully, watching the flag tails for the pickup that is surely coming. Shots 1 through 4 go in a dot but as we are loading the fifth round the flag ribbons begin to rise as velocity increases. Do we stop shooting or continue, firing the last round by holding about a bullet hole of correction into the wind? If it was me, I know I would continue rather than stop and have to 'wait and pick' that last round.

And so, that's exactly what we did; fired the last round with a slight hold into the wind as the range officer calls, 'one minute, you have one minute to complete your firing.' And it's a good group! Good enough to hold on to the top of the leader board. One more decent group and we've got it won! 'Cease fire, cease fire, clear the benches, make the line safe.'

Not to throw this thread off track but I was wondering what the outcome of match 5 was. Seems like a pretty long break for the target crews.
Now, Gene, you have put more on my plate for experimenting with the PPC. I may have to try some of these loading tactics. I wonder if they might be the same for the .222? Back when I was shooting the duece I never used much neck tension and that thing shot really good. I hope this thread never ends-a lot of good information in it for us pundits.
 
Hey Kolar 55, I'm impressed! I wondered if anyone noticed that I didn't finish that five match agg but you were right on top of it.

Since temperature remained at 80 degrees for match 5, no adjustment to the tuner was necessary. I did not accompany my imaginary shooter to the line for match 5 and had to leave before they finished but I heard someone say that he fired after the cease fire was given and was disqualified. Bummer!

Good shootin'! And yes, the slip/step neck method can be used with the 222.

Gene Beggs
 
Gene - explain a little further about seating "off the lands". You wrote that "on the lands" caused concern about neck tension and I've thought all along that it was the very opposite. Help me out on this one please sir.

Doesn't have to be Gene that explains the deal....!

CCBW, Gene’s slip neck sounds like what you and HFV were doing one time at Reidsville when you cleaned us out.

.
 
Seating Bullet Off Lands?

In 2016 and 2017, I used the Wollum's tuner and seated the bullet on the jam for both years. The rig
finished 2nd and 5th respectively in the NBRSA Eastern division. I did have trouble keeping the rifle
in tune for 2-4 days during a tournament. However, this year I am going to try to move the bullet into the
case and get closer to the touch point. Of course this all depends on the group sizing as I move the variables.

Tunermi
 
In 2016 and 2017, I used the Wollum's tuner and seated the bullet on the jam for both years. The rig
finished 2nd and 5th respectively in the NBRSA Eastern division. I did have trouble keeping the rifle
in tune for 2-4 days during a tournament. However, this year I am going to try to move the bullet into the
case and get closer to the touch point. Of course this all depends on the group sizing as I move the variables.

Tunermi


When you tune entirely with the tuner, I believe you will find it is best to seat bullets completely off the lands. This more or less takes that variable out of the equation and eliminates any thought of changing seating depth.

Best of luck to you in '18. Hope to see you in Phoenix.

Gene Beggs
 
Off The Lands

Gene, thanks for your comments. I have already tried tuning
with the bullet further back in the case(off the lands) during some short mild weather
conditions that we had in Mi. and the results looked very good. Of course
I had to move the tuner in order to get the rifle to shoot. Generally
trying to get twos to fours(five shot groups) at 200 yards. I used very hot loads(+30.2 gr 133)
the past two years and the rifle responding well at times. Their were
times of course that the load had to be adjusted due to weather.

Tunermi

.
 
Slip Neck

Gene, currently shooting a BAT DS with a .262 neck and
turning brass to ,0081. I could turn the brass to .0085 for the
first pass and the then turn the second pass to the .0081
for a predetermined distance in order to create a step for
slip neck seating. What neck bushing if any are you using
for the brass?

Tunermi
 
Gene, currently shooting a BAT DS with a .262 neck and
turning brass to ,0081. I could turn the brass to .0085 for the
first pass and the then turn the second pass to the .0081
for a predetermined distance in order to create a step for
slip neck seating. What neck bushing if any are you using
for the brass?

Tunermi


That should work. You don't use a neck sizing bushing at all. Sorry I haven't answered sooner but I'm leaving for Phoenix in a few hours and have been busy getting everything ready to go. If you have any problems we can get back to it next week. Later,

Gene Beggs
 
I won't disagree wit Gene's advice on tuning the LOAD but, bottom line is, I don't think tuners change how you should go about finding the best load in your barrel. Do whatever yields best results and use the tuner to keep it in tune from there.

I typically use some amount of jam with my loads and a fair amount of neck tension. I load to the point where a bullet will stick in the rifling, back it off to where it no longer sticks, then work backward from there. JM2CW.

As far as tuners go, I think the important thing is to start with your best tune/load. Tuners may well improve a gun/load's potential but they are really more about maintaining peak tune than they are about reaching it...at least in the context of this thread. You can fine tune for the condition easier wit a tuner than without, IMO, though. That assumes very good conditions.

As a rule, I don't move the tuner when conditions and my flag reading ability(or lack of) are of more value than tune. In all honesty, that is far more often than not.

I hope those at the Cactus have a great time and have a great match!
 
Late post!

I'm fairly sure that a rifle that shoots well at 100 yds will normally shoot well at 200 yds. On the other hand, I've had barrels (2 or 3) that shot extremely well at 200 and were somewhat worthless at 100. I'm talking smaller groups at 200 than you could shoot at 100 given wind considerations. For example.... .300 at 200 and .325 at 100.
 
Now with Beggs back from the Cactus and a good finish he can tell us how he tuned!


.
Gene did have a very successful Cactus. I have some of Red's 22 Red Russian brass. Red used Remington 6BR brass without flash holes. He was particular about his flash hole size. He also rebated the rims to 222 size. Gene was correct on turning the necks in 2 steps on the OD. He also shortened them about .125".
 
Back Home!

Now with Beggs back from the Cactus and a good finish he can tell us how he tuned!


Hi Jerry

Yes, the Cactus match in Phoenix went well this year. I finished 6 in the LV grand and 19 in the 2 gun.
There were 157 shooters. Conditions were very nice both days but we had a little sprinkle Sunday morning.

I shot my original Hall rifle that Allan Hall and James Messer built for me in 1988. It has a Bruno taper Krieger 13.5 barrel chambered in 6 Beggs with a Beggs tuner. Scope is a Leu/Tucker 36.

The following was the load and tune shot all the way through. Cleaned only after a yardage agg.

Lapua 220 Russian brass, right out of the box, expanded to 6mm and neck turned to .011.8. No change to original 220 Russian body taper or shoulder angle. Flash holes and primer pockets were never touched.

48 clicks (Jones measure) H-322. Wolf SRM primer.

Scott Haywood 68 grain BT bullets seated 'just off' lands. Fairly light neck tension using .2650 carbide neck bushing in the Hornady FL sizing die.

The tuner was set to zero for first match of LV 100. First test group in almost zero conditions was a little ragged with both vertical and horizontal. One mark adjustment 'in' and the second test group looked worse. Went back to zero and made one mark adjustment 'out' and next test group was much better but still a bit of vertical. One more mark 'out' (now two marks 'out' from zero) and the rifle shot a dot!

Tuner position never moved more than four marks (two marks either side of zero) through both days of shooting. Morning lows were 57 to 60 degrees with afternoon highs of around 80. No changes were made to the load. Any adjustment when conditions called for it were made with the tuner.

Later,

Gene Beggs
 
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Well done Gene, well done....actually quite remarkable, older rifle with non trendy action somewhat unique cartridge and powder, tuned with tuner only , and without practice to do that well within that field, There were a lot of guys who practice a lot, have the latest trick everything who were down in the weeds, while you sailed through. When I saw your name on the list and how high up it was I smiled broadly, and thought, ol' Gene still has a trick or two up his sleeve.
Boyd
 
Well done Gene, well done....actually quite remarkable, older rifle with non trendy action somewhat unique cartridge and powder, tuned with tuner only , and without practice to do that well within that field, There were a lot of guys who practice a lot, have the latest trick everything who were down in the weeds, while you sailed through. When I saw your name on the list and how high up it was I smiled broadly, and thought, ol' Gene still has a trick or two up his sleeve.
Boyd


Boyd,

Thanks for the kind words. Yep, my thirty year old Hall sporter is still my favorite rifle. When I sit down behind it I know I'm in the company of an old friend.

It's true, I don't practice; at least not outdoors but I shoot and experiment a fair amount in the tunnel. Contrary to what some say, there are things to be learned in a tunnel that are hard to see outdoors.

Keep in touch and good shootin' !

Gene Beggs
 
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