Feedback From The Tunnel

Boyd Allen said:
Mike,With your tuner and rifle, what is the interval between settings that give perfect tune, and what does that represent in terms of movement along the barrel axis, in thousandths of an inch?
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Boyd, it's not 100% linear but is close enough to get a good average. Some vibrational nodes are narrower than others, like blips on the oscilloscop. Average between nodes is 8 marks on a typical short range contour cf barrel and my tuner. Each mark is essentially equivilent to .001" of tuner travel. The distance between in and back in is not as important to know as the range from in to out and makes it at least twice as complicated as it has to be. The trick is to find your range between in and out of tune and work within that small window of about half as far as in to in. Clear as mud?
 
Actually it IS clear. This is similar to working with Gene's observation that with a typical 10.5# short range BR rifle shooting the usual bullets and 133, that the distance between nodes as observed in his tunnel, is about 1.2 grains. Some time back I had guessed wrong on a first test load for just such a rifle, using a different powder, and with good gun handling and no change in the flags saw paper between two shots. Keeping Gene's information in mind I changed my powder measure setting by about a half grain and the next two cut each other by more than their radii. If you know the rifle and the interval it can speed up tuning. Back when I was playing with tuners, of various types I was making moves that were way too large, based on the most recent information. This makes me want to drag out some of that equipment and do some more testing. I have three distinctly different kinds of tuners: one of Genes, a copy of one that Dwight Scott built years ago, and one of Jackie's that predates his use of the snubber feature.
 
Yes Sir, Right On

mwezell said:
Average between nodes is 8 marks on a typical short range contour cf barrel and my tuner. Each mark is essentially equivalent to .001" of tuner travel. The distance between in and back in is not as important to know as the range from in to out and makes it at least twice as complicated as it has to be. The trick is to find your range between in and out of tune and work within that small window of about half as far as in to in. Clear as mud?
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Perfectly clear, and I agree with the philosophy.

Gene Beggs
 
Boyd Allen said:
Actually it IS clear. This is similar to working with Gene's observation that with a typical 10.5# short range BR rifle shooting the usual bullets and 133, that the distance between nodes as observed in his tunnel, is about 1.2 grains. Some time back I had guessed wrong on a first test load for just such a rifle, using a different powder, and with good gun handling and no change in the flags saw paper between two shots. Keeping Gene's information in mind I changed my powder measure setting by about a half grain and the next two cut each other by more than their radii. If you know the rifle and the interval it can speed up tuning. Back when I was playing with tuners, of various types I was making moves that were way too large, based on the most recent information. This makes me want to drag out some of that equipment and do some more testing. I have three distinctly different kinds of tuners: one of Genes, a copy of one that Dwight Scott built years ago, and one of Jackie's that predates his use of the snubber feature.
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FWIW, it complicates both methods exponentially, so I don't recommend it but, I do think that tuner settings can be made just like powder measure adjustments. Moving the tuner "in" is equivelant to reducing the powder charge. I think I stated that right. The idea is that the tuner speeds the barrel up and less powder slows the bullet down, either method giving the same end result...bullet exit at optimal muzzle position.

This again, overcomplicates things, where tuner usage is concerned. I stongly recommend one be very proficient at both tuning methods before trying to correllate the two methods to one another.

I've been loading for several years, for BR accuracy and I don't consider myself to be near the top, in terms of those that are best at maintaining tune with powder. But tuners were simple!!
 
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Gene Beggs said:
Perfectly clear, and I agree with the philosophy.

Gene Beggs
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Sorta, but it depends on where you start, really. It is fair to say that, at a given test temp, moving the tuner to either side of optimum, is very much a possibility....much like tuning with powder charge, IME.
 
Boyd Allen said:
I wasn't so much trying to correlate them as to illustrate the usefulness of knowing the interval.
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You have to shoot it to know but most all barrels, ranging from 18" HV contours to 1.450 straights and long 1.250 straights have all been within a 3-5 mark range, with my tuner. That's just in centerfire. Air rifle and rf are about double the range!
 
Here is a target to prove your point Mike

mwezell said:
You have to shoot it to know but most all barrels, ranging from 18" HV contours to 1.450 straights and long 1.250 straights have all been within a 3-5 mark range, with my tuner. That's just in centerfire. Air rifle and rf are about double the range!
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Mike,
I tied the tuner with a SWAG load of 29G VV133 and my 7/11 66G FB bullets to get first firing on some new Norma cases. Group at 0 was to sight in the gun after installing the Barrel. Numbers 3 and 4 on the tuner only took 2 shots to get the answer. It repeated from #1 after 4 numbers as you predicted. Hope the attached target came through.
 
Richard said:
Or another common sight Here's draft one:

What do I do with a tunna?
posed to be more funna.
my groups ain't no smaller!
now who do I faller?
I done throwed it down in the holler! :)
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Oooohh Ree'shard, you so funny but your draft blows the format!

in respect for your wit I'll try make the last line fit...



What do I do with a tunna?
posed to be more funna.
my groups ain't no smaller!
now who do I faller?
I done blowed my shot at the moona'!
 
Engrbill said:
Mike,
I tied the tuner with a SWAG load of 29G VV133 and my 7/11 66G FB bullets to get first firing on some new Norma cases. Group at 0 was to sight in the gun after installing the Barrel. Numbers 3 and 4 on the tuner only took 2 shots to get the answer. It repeated from #1 after 4 numbers as you predicted. Hope the attached target came through.
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Bill, that's more change than is typical, ime. What distance?
 
Al,

alinwa said:
Oooohh Ree'shard, you so funny but your draft blows the format!

in respect for your wit I'll try make the last line fit...



What do I do with a tunna?
posed to be more funna.
my groups ain't no smaller!
now who do I faller?
I done blowed my shot at the moona'!
Click to expand...

I did the best I could.:) You get the idea though.
Just trying to throw a little humor into what seems like a life and death situation :)

Richard
 
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Sure Got Quiet; Didn't It?

Hmmmmm,, wonder where everyone went? Richard and Alinwa still hangin' around but the rest must be out shootin' and playing with their tuners. I'll bet that's it, yeah, either that or I've ran everyone off with my drivel.

It's been a good discussion, probably the most up to date, state of the art exchange of information on centerfire tuners to date. Thank you Wilbur for providing this wonderful forum.

I'm sure there's more to learn about rifle tune but we have made great progress in recent years. Let's keep working at it. It's a lot of fun and SO interesting!

Questions?
Comments?
Criticisms?
Suggestions?


Later,,Gene Beggs
 
Still here. I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but...

Gene Beggs said:
Hmmmmm,, wonder where everyone went? Richard and Alinwa still hangin' around but the rest must be out shootin' and playing with their tuners. I'll bet that's it, yeah, either that or I've ran everyone off with my drivel.

It's been a good discussion, probably the most up to date, state of the art exchange of information on centerfire tuners to date. Thank you Wilbur for providing this wonderful forum.

I'm sure there's more to learn about rifle tune but we have made great progress in recent years. Let's keep working at it. It's a lot of fun and SO interesting!

Questions?
Comments?
Criticisms?
Suggestions?


Later,,Gene Beggs
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...as I sit here at 05:55 hours priming cases, having coffee and pondering tuners I think to myself that it just makes sense to have the advantage of using a mechanical device to perform tuning functions. The thing I keep coming back to that is the over riding theme for me is this:

With a tuner, if I end up at the line with the wrong powder charge (which I will) I may be able to salvage the group because I still have a card up my sleeve. Without a tuner, I'm sitting there with a pair of 9's knowing that probably won't get it done.

Keep in mind that all of the above is purely theoretical BS on my part since I have zero practical tuner experience. Quite often, I'm hesitant to post anything on this board because of my inexperience. This new tuner might end up in the trash can after 1000 rounds, but I'd like to think not. As the Seabees say, "Can-Do".

Keep up the good work Gene. Same to the rest of you in the tuner arena. Having an open mind leads to advancement even though there are always bumps along the way. A closed mind is a locked door.
 
Gene Beggs said:
Hmmmmm,,,,,,,,,,must be out shootin' and playing with their tuners. I'll bet that's it, yeah, either that or I've ran everyone off with my drivel.

It's been a good discussion, probably the most up to date, state of the art exchange of information on centerfire tuners to date. Thank you Wilbur for providing this wonderful forum.

I'm sure there's more to learn about rifle tune ,,,,,,


Later,,Gene Beggs
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What we want to see now, 2018, is some of these hotshot SCORE shooters come shoot at least midsize (Shamrock or bigger) GROUP.. We want to see using their tuners shoot some mid teen angers.

?????
 
jimmymac said:
...as I sit here at 05:55 hours priming cases, having coffee and pondering tuners I think to myself that it just makes sense to have the advantage of using a mechanical device to perform tuning functions. The thing I keep coming back to With a tuner, if I end up at the line with the wrong powder charge (which I will) I may be able to salvage the group because I still have a card up my sleeve. Without a tuner, I'm sitting there,,,



Keep up the good work Gene. Same to the rest of you in the tuner arena. Having an open mind ,,,,
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Southwest Pa?? Fair chance area?? Hog Roast is big enough for these SCORERS to show us GROUPERS how to, in just clicking 2 or 3 numbers to get mid teen angers. REMEMBER, we shoot two lines of 10 5 pound targets. And we weigh guns.
 
Never shot a match...

Wildcatter said:
Southwest Pa?? Fair chance area?? Hog Roast is big enough for these SCORERS to show us GROUPERS how to, in just clicking 2 or 3 numbers to get mid teen angers. REMEMBER, we shoot two lines of 10 5 pound targets. And we weigh guns.
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I'm hoping to be ready for the Hogroast and make that my first. I'm about an hour away from Fairchance. Frankly, the biggest issue I have is preparing myself mentally that I belong on the same line with some pretty serious shooters. I'm not going to win. I know that. I just want to learn. My fear is that I'll end up messing up someone who IS there to win.

This has been a good thread for me. I'd hate to see it get side tracked with score vs group debate even if it is in jest.
 
Hey Gene

yes, been hanging around the keyboard way to much :) Have been really busy though.
Between getting bbl.'s chambered up for the guys, getting ready for the Cactus, trying to find quality practice time on the range. Time really gets away for sure.
It has been a good br off season though. Holding tuner classes out here on my range has been a lot of fun. Charlene keeps us all fed and having a place for everybody to stay helps to. If we need to work on a gun in the shop it's only a minutes walk to get there.

Hey Jim! Don't sweat it, you will love a tuner! To bad you don't live closer, would have you up and running pretty quick. I have guys coming from out of state but not that far. All the same, the invitation is open for you to come.

Richard
 
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