Feedback From The Tunnel

Gene

Thank you for the great information on tunner's!

Since were in between matches at the moment. If you have time for a quick question? the following two comments..

"Any experienced benchrester has a pet load. A 'go-to' combination that can usually be counted on to pull him out of the ditch when he's having trouble."

" Set your powder dispenser with a scale and lock that sucker down and don't touch it again!"

I'm curious If you have tried preloading lets say 40-50 rds and sat down at your bench in the tunnel and shot let say 10rds this week 10rds the week after etc-etc-etc. To see what your results would be!

Thanks again
Russ

I'll let Gene answer, but yes, I have, just not in a tunnel. Actually, there was usually 2-4 weeks in between, often. What I find is that it's always within that small 1-2 mark range of adjustment, or less, from being in tune. That's just how I use it because, unfortunately, the last 2-3 years have been a very busy time and I haven't been shooting as much as I use to. So, out of necessity, I load ammo and go to a match....tune when I get there, on the warm-up. BTW, in UBR, we have 3 minute warm-ups! I've taken guns that I've never fired, mounted a scope the night before, loaded a "go to" load, and found a very competitive tune...in 2 minutes...including getting the scope that I just mounted, dialed it..

This year, I'm shooting a lot more and a lot more matches.
 
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Gene

Thank you for the great information on tunner's!

Since were in between matches at the moment. If you have time for a quick question? the following two comments..

"Any experienced benchrester has a pet load. A 'go-to' combination that can usually be counted on to pull him out of the ditch when he's having trouble."

" Set your powder dispenser with a scale and lock that sucker down and don't touch it again!"

I'm curious If you have tried preloading lets say 40-50 rds and sat down at your bench in the tunnel and shot let say 10rds this week 10rds the week after etc-etc-etc. To see what your results would be!

Thanks again
Russ

Obviously, I'm not Gene. But I've been shooting the 220 Beggs in at least 6 different barrels and four different rifles for the past six years. I always use the same load and always go preloaded.
I adjust the tuner if and as needed, but to be honest, with a couple of barrel/rifle combinations I rarely move the tuner at all. Same with my 6 Beggs.

Rick
 
Gene

Thank you for the great information on tunner's!

Since were in between matches at the moment. If you have time for a quick question? the following two comments..

"Any experienced benchrester has a pet load. A 'go-to' combination that can usually be counted on to pull him out of the ditch when he's having trouble."

" Set your powder dispenser with a scale and lock that sucker down and don't touch it again!"

I'm curious If you have tried preloading lets say 40-50 rds and sat down at your bench in the tunnel and shot let say 10rds this week 10rds the week after etc-etc-etc. To see what your results would be!

Thanks again
Russ


Russ
No, I never pre-load for my BR rifle for several reasons although I have seen others try. I find it better and much easier to load at the site between matches using 20 dedicated cases. Cases work harden as they are fired and resized so I try to rotate my loading block so each case gets used approximately the same number of times. After cases have been fired many times, it is necessary to adjust the sizing die down in .001 to .002 increments to keep the shoulder from moving forward and stiffening bolt lift thereby degrading rifle handling. After many firings you may also have to go to a .0005 smaller neck bushing to maintain proper neck tension. I don't consider this to be a problem at all, it's just good case maintenance and management. And no, I don't recommend annealing short range benchrest cases. Some disagree but that's my choice. I like to keep things as simple as possible.

Some shooters load at the range but use pre-measured, carefully weighed charges contained in glass tubes sealed with a rubber stopper or cork. I consider it more trouble than its worth feeling that charges thrown with good technique from a quality, Culver type powder measure are more than adequate for even the most demanding situations. I even think it may be a slight advantage in short range group shooting to have charges that vary plus or minus .2 grains. If the rifle is properly tuned this variation in muzzle velocity will be cancelled out by positive compensation.

If you were to pre-load 40 or 50 cartridges today and fire them ten at a time at ten or twenty day intervals, I'm not sure what you would find; probably not much. At least it would prove that you have more patience than I do. If the bullets seal the powder from the atmosphere which I assume they do, moisture content would be unchanged, so muzzle velocity should be very close to the same each day. It wouldn't be anything I would be interested in trying. I'll just throw my charges from my Jones measure and call it good. If weight varies from one day to the next due to adsorption of moisture, I'll be tuning the barrel with the tuner anyway. Lots of little things like that become irrelevant when you tune with a tuner.

Hope this helps answer your question.

Good shootin'!

Gene Beggs
 
Gene

Great explanation!

"My Mistake" In post #146 I was referring to using a tunner to tune preloaded rounds at a match.

You still gave me what I was looking for.

Thank you for the reply.

Russ
 
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Two words.

Charge Master.


Hey there Jackie! Glad you're following this thread. You're a tuner man from way back, perhaps the first to make good use of one in centerfire benchrest.

Yes, in recent years more and more shooters have gone to the RCBS Charge Master in preference to Culver type powder measures, feeling that it results in more accurate powder charges and smaller extreme spreads in muzzle velocity.
I do not own a Charge Master but have compared my extreme spreads with those of a friend who uses one and could see no advantage. Being one who likes to keep things simple and minimize the equipment I have to lug around, I have stayed with thrown charges from my Jones measure.

But as you and other experienced shooters know, if you believe something offers an advantage and gives you more confidence in your equipment then it's a good thing and worth doing.

Hope you can come out to Midland and shoot with us this year.

Good shootin' and best regards

Gene Beggs
 
I was nodding my head, yes..until the last statement.

That's part of the beauty of a tuner. You can tweak the last ounce out of a given load, in good conditions...and do it at the bench.

Or, one could deduce that use of the tuner to “get the last ounce” out of that barrel being that the tuner doesn’t tune the powder load, it tunes the barrel!

.
 
The question Russ Stiner poses above about loading several of the same load and firing them on different days, I’ve done that. In the normal load testing range trips, I took 45 preloads, getting it the range I would fire 4 sighters to foul the barrel. Then I would fire 3 3 shot groups from this pre loaded batch. Then go on with whatever I was working on that day. What did I find? All the 3 group preloads shot within about 0.040” ofthe same agg each day. This was over a period of 5 range trips over about 3 weeks, fired from the same gun. This was an outdoor test in changing weather conditions. Shooting in Genes tunnel where environmental conditions don’t change as much the results might be better.

This test was with RL-10x powder, loaded to 3450 FPS and shooting Hottenstine 68 grain boat tails.

.
 
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Or, one could deduce that use of the tuner to “get the last ounce” out of that barrel being that the tuner doesn’t tune the powder load, it tunes the barrel! .


Jerry, your statement above leads me to believe that you regard powder-tune as something entirely disassociated with bullet-exit-timing, suggesting that there is something magic about a specific powder charge whether it results in optimum bullet exit timing or not. I do not believe that! I believe that once you get into a reasonable window of muzzle velocity, ANY charge such as 27.5, 28.1 or whatever can be made to shoot well as long as the tuner has the bullets exiting at the proper point in muzzle upswing. That's hard for me to put into words but I hope it makes sense.

When running a ladder test by increasing powder charge in .3 grain increments, you encounter an in-tune condition about every 1.2 grains of N133. IMO the reason a specific charge such as 28.8 grains shows 'in-tune' today under specific atmospheric conditions is because it results in optimum bullet exit timing, not because of some magic combustion phenomena that always occurs with that specific charge. Tomorrow morning, 28.8 grains may not shoot in a basket with the tuner set to where it is today when it shot great. But,,,,,by making a couple of small tuner adjustments thereby changing barrel vibration frequency to optimize bullet exit timing, the rifle comes back in tune.

Most of our 6mm Sporters shoot well in three different windows of muzzle velocity;

1. Starting at around 3200 fps.
2. Mid range velocity around 3320
3. And the upper window at about 3440.

Some shooters even go up into yet another, ultra high velocity range by using around 30.6 grains of N133 which results in a muzzle velocity of over 3500 fps. Their reasoning is, "The faster they go, the less they blow." But case life suffers, barrels wear out quicker and it puts great demands on the case sizing operation to prevent stiff bolt operation.

IMO, when you exceed about 3375 fps in our 6mm BR rifles, using 64 to 68 grain bullets, you are bucking the law of diminishing returns. An expert in external ballistics will tell you that the reason bullets drift in crosswinds is because they are constantly decelerating, not because the wind is 'blowing them over.' Atmospheric drag increases by the square of the increase in velocity so launching bullets faster causes them to decelerate quicker which results in MORE wind drift, not less.

Hope this helps

Later, Gene Beggs
 
I’m short on time right now but those guys winning at 3525+ are not concerned about “wind blow”. They are at a velocity with the standard ppc that they discard their cases after not over 3 firings at that pressure, But, they are in the next node above the old norm. My early 6-40 Dune, which held 3.5 grains more water than the normal ppc would shoot in that upper node with ease. I took that load to the 600 yard nationals and, with the 67 grain fb , placed a 2nd, a 3rd, a 4th and a 5th. 600 IBS has 4 catagories.

I can easily get to 3575 with Rl-10x. Shoots great!

.
 
Jerry, your statement above leads me to believe that you regard powder-tune as something entirely disassociated with bullet-exit-timing, suggesting that there is something magic about a specific powder charge whether it results in optimum bullet exit timing or not. I do not believe that! I believe that once you get into a reasonable window of muzzle velocity, ANY charge such as 27.5, 28.1 or whatever can be made to shoot well as long as the tuner has the bullets exiting at the proper point in muzzle upswing. That's hard for me to put into words but I hope it makes sense.

Later, Gene Beggs


Great work on facilitating the method of adjustment on tuners!

Air in the barrel thinning throughout the day - I have flipped my thinking on this one a couple of times but for our type of gun I do not believe that values are much more than negligible. Not the Air Shock Resistance found in Seigel’s study of High Speed Guns.

Denton Bramwell wrote a good article on - How Temperature, Powder, and Primer Affect Pressure – which is completely in line with traditional small arms Internal Ballistics studies concerning the Pressure / Time relationship and muzzle velocity.

Consistency is the key, how to manage it is a personal choice.

BR
Ken
 
Very Important To Understand

Great work on facilitating the method of adjustment on tuners!

Air in the barrel thinning throughout the day - I have flipped my thinking on this one a couple of times but for our type of gun I do not believe that values are much more than negligible.

BR
Ken


Ken, I can understand why you and so many others have a hard time visualizing what I have said for years about the rifle going out of tune because air thins out and weighs less as ambient temp increases. Your sentence above,

"Air in the barrel thinning throughout the day"

tells me that you are thinking only of that tiny bit of air 'in-the-barrel' and the insignificant weight it represents. Forget about that; if that's all there was to it the concern would indeed be negligible, but what you are overlooking is the fact that the air 'in-the-barrel' is confined in a long cylinder (the barrel) and the bullet (the piston) must push the contents out against the entire weight of the atmosphere and is travelling at around mach 2.7 by the time it exits the muzzle!

You can just imagine the backpressure this compressed air in the barrel exerts on the bullet as it accelerates down the bore toward the muzzle! The heavier the atmosphere, the more backpressure it exerts. If the atmosphere warms and air becomes less dense, backpressure on the bullet decreases, it accelerates quicker which reduces in-bore time and the bullets begin to exit early. That's why speeding the barrel up slightly (increasing vibration frequency) puts the rifle back in tune.

Hope this helps.

Gene Beggs
 
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Whats the temperature of the air in the barrel after the 1st shot fired? 2nd? 10th? I would imagine the temp swing from combustion gases heating up the barrel is quite large?
 
Hmmmm,

Just whatever happened to the 99.2193% of the people that could care less about how it works?
If your trying to keep it simple and "uncomplicated" Just twist the thing and see what happens.
I thought you guys were past the science, that's the impression I got.
Some are wanting their cake and eat it too.

Richard
 
If you don't have a semblance of understanding

how do you know what to do and how do you get repeatability?
 
That was the point

how do you know what to do and how do you get repeatability?

I was making earlier. But all that got shot down and now your saying you want to understand how it works?
I believe it was said "lets leave all the theory out of the internet discussion"
Ahh, BRC you gotta love it at times for sure.

We could delve into muzzle flow gasdynamics, or how about pressure-time-velocity-travel relationship?
Just kidding.

Richard
 
Just whatever happened to the 99.2193% of the people that could care less about how it works?
If your trying to keep it simple and "uncomplicated" Just twist the thing and see what happens.
I thought you guys were past the science, that's the impression I got.
Some are wanting their cake and eat it too.

Richard

I haven't counted, but I think they're all here, now. :)
I think that, for the most part, this thread has stayed very good because we haven't debated the complicated, and some unknown details as to WHY tuners work. That's a subject that I enjoy, but I just think it's best for another thread. This one has been full of good info that pertains to how to make a tuner do what we want it to do. I think that that's what 90.12975% (changed my number ;))of readers care most about.

Somebody start the thread....I'll chime in at some point, but I freely admit that there are things that I don't know, as well as things that no one knows about ALL that happens when a gun is fired and how a tuner affects it. Threads about theories can quickly turn into urination olympics. If we can make the dots between results and science connect, then what's left in between might be more than theory, and of great value.
 
90%, it's moving in the right direction :)

Your right however, two threads would probably be the best.

Yes, probably so. I think the natural progression in regard to how inquisitive most people are about tuners goes something like....

1.)Sounds too good to be true. How does a tuner do THAT?

2.)Tries tuner, says...Huh! I'll be damn! It does do THAT!!

3.) Who gives a ? Send me another one.

Lol!
 
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